-4

This question:

enter image description here

Was closed, which makes sense, was swiftly downvoted, which also makes some sense, and in the matter for 15 minutes was deleted. Now, the question needs some refactoring, a title, the code as formatted text (the linked code is fine), and some more refined description, but it's definitely salvageable.

It is my understanding that the post is not blatantly off-topic, it is a programming question, it does not comply with requirements, which is why it should be closed until it does, but it does not need to be immediately deleted. We should not scare people away, which may have happened in this case. I would feel unwelcome, at the very least, by such an avalanche of negative feedback.

My question is, was it too harsh to delete the question without giving the OP the opportunity to refactor it?

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  • 23
    "it's definitely salvageable."... Only if you completely rewrite it.
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 10, 2023 at 13:33
  • 8
    @Cerbrus so what is the problem? It would take a few minutes, the linked code is properly formatted. With the comment in mind, the OP could very well salvage it, if given the time. Isn't that what we want?
    – anastaciu
    Jan 10, 2023 at 13:36
  • 9
    OP still can... And then it can be undeleted / re-opened. But as easy as it is, OP apparently hasn't edited his question in 19 minutes, even though he got instructions to do so only 3 minutes after asking.
    – Cerbrus
    Jan 10, 2023 at 13:38
  • 29
    It's not really about harshness or unfriendliness. It's merely the fact that this is not the way the system is supposed to work. So, yes, there is a legitimate concern here, and one I'm increasing seeing far too often. Jan 10, 2023 at 13:47
  • 8
    Isn't this too much investment on the experience of a user who hasn't even taken the tour? If we want things (experience and site reputation) to improve in the right direction, then we need to prevent these kinds of questions from ever being posted in the first place.
    – E_net4
    Jan 10, 2023 at 13:49
  • 19
    The one asking the question is the one who has to put in the effort. We simply don't have the manpower to spoon feed every new user. The review queues sit at maximum size. We clearly don't have the time to polish crap and adopt every crappy question as our new favourite pet. Did this post need to be deleted? No, but sometimes that is done out of kindness to prevent further downvoting, I think they got the clue at -7 votes.
    – Lundin
    Jan 10, 2023 at 13:54
  • 9
    Focusing on "harsh" seems to needlessly constraint this meta question. There's just no point in such a speedy deletion; from the perspective of cleanup, the appropriate closing and downvoting is sufficient. Deletion just complicates things for no benefit. Jan 10, 2023 at 14:00
  • 9
    I agree that deleting this so quickly was out of line. We should give the OP time to understand the feedback and try to improve their post ... though it's really hard to see how they could dig themselves out of a -7 rut even if they ended up with an excellent question after editing. There are some questions which are definitely unsalvageable in practice, even if the OP try their best.
    – tripleee
    Jan 10, 2023 at 14:00
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    The core design of this site is "moderation by means of public shaming". Meaning it will always come across as snarky, elitist, rude and so on. No matter if justified or not - because nobody likes to receive criticism loudly in public, for the whole Internet to see. This has been discussed at length multiple times and the voting and moderation systems aren't going to change. Status-snarky-by-design.
    – Lundin
    Jan 10, 2023 at 14:05
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    Agreed. That is the true publicity issue. Everyone means well, but the end result is still very unpleasant because frankly there are just too darned many of us banging on the same buttons. It's too much of a good thing. Everyone should be free to downvote and/or close vote a StackOverflow-incompatible question... but if a question receives 30 downvotes in 10 minutes or gets closed and deleted in 15 minutes, I sympathise with people calling something like that punishment. It isn't intended as such, but it'll feel like it.
    – Gimby
    Jan 10, 2023 at 14:36
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    Given the previously cited over 5000 new questions posted within the past 24 hours, I'd argue that the button that's being banged on too much is the Ask button, and the resulting unending stream of (pretty frequently) low-quality questions that aren't going to be of use to anyone else. I think there's more of a spirit of camaraderie on some smaller sites because many involved are well-meaning hobbyists. That's not the case on SO because many askers are not hobbyists nor professionals, which results in (what feels like) unfriendly blowback from the curators who don't care to spoonfeed. Jan 10, 2023 at 15:15
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    @MisterMiyagi To delete a -3 closed question without waiting, one must have trusted user privileges (20k). At 10k, one may only vote to delete after a couple days. Jan 10, 2023 at 15:39
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    @MikeS. - "It's sadly expected from new users to be able to write perfect questions even if it's their first one." - Nobody is expecting a perfect question but the question the author asked does not even contain a single line of code. Linking to your code, instead of providing a MRE, isn't an acceptable question in my opinion. Had the author read the help center they would know a MRE contained within the question body was required. Jan 10, 2023 at 15:46
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    How on earth does an awful question like this get through the new ask question wizard and/or staging grounds?
    – JK.
    Jan 11, 2023 at 1:23
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    @PresidentJamesK.Polk No, because you should not hold the individual accountable for the sins of the many. While it's true that the majority of users don't bother to come back and edit their post to comply with our guidelines, that doesn't mean that we should rob everyone of the opportunity by summarily deleting all posts that have been closed. Of course, we shouldn't ignore reality, either, which is why we have automated clean-up processes like Roomba, and other mechanisms to clean up around the edges when those fail. All of those should only happen after giving sufficient time to edit. Jan 11, 2023 at 6:50

3 Answers 3

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I do not see any point in forcefully deleting such a question.

Does it seem useful? No. That's a down vote.
Does it seem on-topic? No. That's a close vote.

And that is it. If the question stays as is, Roomba will eat it eventually. If the asker salvages the question, review will un-close it eventually.

Everything else is just piling on and making things more complicated than necessary.

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    I think the point about the Roomba eventually eating it is important. Even from a curation point of view, there's no need to expend delete votes on things that aren't blatantly off-topic/don't actually need delete votes. RemoveAbandonedClosed will take care of it if it receives no attention.
    – Spevacus
    Jan 10, 2023 at 16:52
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    The running theory is that it is to prevent the question from getting to those 30 downvotes in no time at all. It is a kindness to the OP, but at the same time the site is not at all designed to be kind... it is kind of abusive in itself to delete fast for that reason. And I kind of wonder how often it actually helps someone. It isn't even sure what helps you to get to a question ban quicker; a question with 30 downvotes or a deleted question with 7 downvotes. It feels like something that can easily backfire.
    – Gimby
    Jan 11, 2023 at 9:00
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    This was an interesting discussion, we are far from a consensus, anyway, this is the answer I think is the correct one as reinforced by the voting. I hope this post helped us think about our approach towards the curation of this great resource, and made us all, at least a little bit, better and more thoughtful users.
    – anastaciu
    Jan 11, 2023 at 12:23
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Note: This is hypothetical, if I were reacting to this in the moment and didn't recognize that I could just not take any action on the post.


What do I see?

  • A link to a dodgy location
  • A vague reference to code not working
  • No stack trace

The reason I'd close the question would be for any of the above three, since the question can't be reasonably answered. We have a requirement that code lives here on this site so that we can look at it without needing to go anywhere else.

The reason I'd delete the question is due to the dodgy link. Lots of us are on work computers as we are in a hybrid world, and we can't really chance clicking something that'll take us to God knows where.

If the OP is serious about getting their question answered, they can edit it to remove the link, put their code in the question, put an error message in as well, and then flag for a moderator to undelete.

(OPs are seldom serious about getting their question answered by this point, by the way. It is an uphill battle to get a question undeleted, after all, and first impressions count a whole heck of a lot.)

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    There's absolutely nothing "dodgy" about that link. It's an online compiler. It's not acceptable to post code behind an off-site resource, but were that link included in an otherwise acceptable question, it might well be a useful addition to the question. Mere inclusion of that link is not a valid reason to delete the question. The question was closed (by yours truly, in fact), so that's not really at issue here. Jan 10, 2023 at 15:47
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    @CodyGray: Dodgy, not malicious. If I had to reach for a reason to delete a question with a link, it'd probably be for that reason, since I can't confirm or deny that the link is safe with the work computer I'm on. But perhaps in a different light I would normally agree with you; unceremonious deletion of posts does make it a lot harder to get them to be fixed, after all.
    – Makoto
    Jan 10, 2023 at 16:30
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    I don't see why you have to confirm the link is safe or not. It seems one cannot confirm that from a work computer for any link unless you know it beforehand. Assuming that any and all links you don't know are unsafe seems... well... unrealistic. As in review, why not just Skip if you don't know? Jan 10, 2023 at 17:49
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    @MisterMiyagi: I would likely do that. I'm simply reaching in terms of, if it were me in this situation, and somehow I didn't think I could skip this, this is what I'd do. I don't tend to favor deletion except in nuclear scenarios, but I could see a link that could be malicious as a reason to vote for deletion.
    – Makoto
    Jan 10, 2023 at 17:53
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    It might help to clarify in the answer that it's a somewhat hypothetical, worst-case scenario then. Jan 10, 2023 at 17:55
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    You can google "onlinegdb" and that'll tell you that the exact url in the post is the "GDB online debugger". Not some kind of gambling related site (because that is the assumption I would make when only reading the url) :) That should un-dodgy it.
    – Gimby
    Jan 11, 2023 at 8:44
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    @Gimby that's because you're into java, were you into C/C++ you'd now that gdb stands for GNU Debugger, despite the fact that the site has several other languages. Anyway, you are assuming google is not dodgy :D you should duck duck go google beforehand
    – anastaciu
    Jan 11, 2023 at 9:21
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    @anastaciu I know what gdb is (even though I would use Visual Studio to do C++ dev...). What is entirely alien to me is a website pretending to be gdb.
    – Gimby
    Jan 11, 2023 at 11:09
  • @Gimby, it's not too bad, I used in the past, you can even actually debug code, which is always nice, at least for C/C++, don't know about the other languages.
    – anastaciu
    Jan 11, 2023 at 12:17
0

From details you posted it looks like deletion prevented the question from gaining even more downvotes - which in turn made it easier to reopen in case if asker manages to sufficiently improve and generally, would prevent imposing harder asking rate limits if they choose to do nothing about it.

From this perspective one can argue that in specific case you describe, deletion made life easier for the asker.

One is of course free to think otherwise but I personally, as an asker, having some of my questions deleted like that, would really prefer this way. It is just more convenient to be able to edit your question without being bombed by downvotes and chatty comments (and flag or ask at meta to undelete and reopen after I'm done).


To make sure that my understanding of how system works is correct, I revisited one of my own deleted questions (at another site) and checked that I am able to do as described above. I found that I already tested this about 3 years ago and it worked fine back then and I was still able to edit my question now.

One difference I noticed compared to my testing 3 years ago is "Submit for reopening" check box (known non-critical issue reported at MSE). Another thing I saw and liked was how much easier it became to discover my deleted question due to this recent feature - now that was really convenient.


For comparison, this is how similar quick deletions were explained by a moderator at another site meta:

If you read the Help Center's page about what you can ask about here prior to posting, you would see that some questions aren't a good fit for this environment... your question fell into one of the topics that was specifically deemed by our community to be off-topic and documented as such in the Help Center... We have no obligation to keep your question around if it doesn't meet our community's standards. That's how it works here. Next time, you should read a site's rules and standards before posting your question.

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    Does the closed-question review actually undelete the question as well? Jan 10, 2023 at 15:12
  • @MisterMiyagi looks like no, it does not. At sites where I have over 10K I never saw deleted questions neither in reopen queue nor listed in 10K tools->"Reopen votes". In fact, if it did, I bet somebody would already reported a bug about this - because that would be a bug for sure, and wide open door for abuse :)
    – gnat
    Jan 10, 2023 at 15:15
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    So the question is stuck in deletion-limbo even after being properly salvaged? Great. Jan 10, 2023 at 15:16
  • @MisterMiyagi why, as I wrote one is expected to flag or ask at meta for undeletion. This feels frankly safer - because 10Kers or mod can review your edits and block undeletion is it's still not good enough (and still would keep gaining downvotes if undeleted)
    – gnat
    Jan 10, 2023 at 15:18
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    I really don't see how invoking the meta effect is safer in any way. Meta review is brutal, especially if there is disagreement whether a question should have been undeleted. Not to mention that there seems to be no actionable advice to the asker that tells them to do this. Jan 10, 2023 at 15:21
  • that's why I wrote it's safer to ask meta having your question "protected" by deletion. Also, I saw meta effect pushing strongly in positive direction when people agreed that question is indeed worthy. It just seems to happen infrequent because of so many askers trying to use meta as a free ticket to reopen their unsalvageable questions
    – gnat
    Jan 10, 2023 at 15:26
  • Deletion doesn't protect against the meta effect. It takes three people being convinced to undelete, not agreement. Then it's a voting spree for everyone who agrees or disagrees with undeletion... Jan 10, 2023 at 15:32
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    "...which in turn made it easier to reopen..." No, this is nonsense. Deleted questions cannot be reopened. This is exactly why the question should not have been deleted. And what you've indirectly quoted, Shog9 defending immediate deletion of blatantly off-topic posts, is inapplicable here, as this is not blatantly off-topic. It is a programming question; it's not a post about gardening or cooking or philosophy. I agree that those should be summarily deleted. It does fail to comply with our requirements, which is why it should be closed, but it does not need to be immediately deleted Jan 10, 2023 at 15:45
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    @CodyGray sorry but what you wrote is nonsense. Did you read my post? Do you have deleted questions (on a site where you don't have 10K / mod privileges (like on of my own I just tested)? As for my quoting, I wrote nothing (nor I intended to) about it being blatantly off-topic, please don't put words into my mouth
    – gnat
    Jan 10, 2023 at 16:23
  • ...the part about Shog that you picked from the link I provided purely for attribution purposes, does not (and can not, and should not) apply to Stack Overflow at all
    – gnat
    Jan 10, 2023 at 16:26
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    I don't dispute that deleted posts can be edited, but they can't be reopened. Jan 10, 2023 at 16:47
  • @CodyGray reopening (a worthy question) via mod flag or meta post is many times easier than via queue. Meta post is additionally better because it can bring positive meta effect and wipe out prior downvotes
    – gnat
    Jan 10, 2023 at 16:51
  • ...deletion just provides a valid reason to bypass toothless queue and use more efficient means to reopen. I am not going to say that this is "universally" good, but from the perspective of the asker it is sure beneficial
    – gnat
    Jan 10, 2023 at 16:57

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