27

My answer was deleted by a mod for plagiarism. Why? It mentioned the source clearly ("code from gns-ank").

Answer:

Since Matplotlib isn't able to use the metric system natively, if you want to specify the size of your figure in a reasonable unit of length such as centimeters, you can do the following (code from gns-ank):

def cm2inch(*tupl):
    inch = 2.54
    if isinstance(tupl[0], tuple):
        return tuple(i/inch for i in tupl[0])
    else:
        return tuple(i/inch for i in tupl)

Then you can use:

plt.figure(figsize=cm2inch(21, 29.7))

Deletion reason:

Plagiarised from Specify figure size in centimeter in matplotlib. Dharman 7 hours ago

Note: gns-ank is the old username of aigna.

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  • 13
    Your content wasn't in a block quote, meaning that the content wasn't properly formatted. If you are quoting someone put it in a blockquote; otherwise it looks the content is your own not someone else's. There's an article in the help center that shows the correct way to quote content.
    – Thom A
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 8:17
  • 14
    As far as I can tell, practically the entire content is taken from the other answer. Even the linked issue is the same and the second, unattributed code block only swapped out the numbers (whether that makes it less similar or intentionally obscures the similarity I'll leave up for the readers). While it's not a verbatim copy, I'm having a hard time seeing what content it actually adds. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 8:19
  • 28
    Plus, if your answer is the same as someone else's on the site, then I fail to see why the answer is useful. Either close as a duplicate, or if it's the same question you are both answering then write your own answer.
    – Thom A
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 8:20
  • 8
    @Larnu thanks, it's two different questions. I'll add the quotes (I hadn't put them to save space and the attribution seemed clear to me). Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 8:34
  • 3
    @MisterMiyagi I think the numbers are different because I was using it in my code. I don't think it obscures the copy paste at all... The copied answer is in a different location. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 8:36
  • 4
    The question didn't ask "How to change the size of figure in metric?". Why repost an answer from the question which does?
    – gre_gor
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 11:47
  • 2
    @gre_gor because in most countries people use metric. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 11:49
  • 4
    “it's two different questions.” - But both of those questions are answered by the same answer, which makes them duplicates, so only one of them should be answered. Different metrics for plagiarism, give me a break, plagiarism is plagiarism. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 13:14
  • 7
    @SecurityHound "both of those questions are answered by the same answer, which makes them duplicates": I disagree, that doesn't make them duplicate. "Different metrics for plagiarism, give me a break, plagiarism is plagiarism. " how is it plagiarism when I clearly mentioned and linked to the source? Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 13:19
  • 7
    @SecurityHound I don't feel a quote is necessary if the attribution is clear. But happy to add it, or the mod could have added it instead of removing the answer. And it definitely doesn't qualify as plagiarism. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 13:58
  • 45
    Plagiarism is more than a close/delete reason, it's a serious accusation. Plagiarism means copying someone else's work and claiming it's your own work. That didn't happen here, the work was clearly attributed to someone else. It's not plagiarism. Arguing whether it should be deleted for other similar reasons is a different discussion. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 14:52
  • 4
    @FranckDernoncourt - Still doesn’t change the fact, you should have flagged as a duplicate, instead of submitting your answers. Had you properly cited and quoted the original answer, your answer still should be deleted, in my opinion. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 16:04
  • 2
    Related: When should answers consisting entirely of cited, copied content be flagged? and Answers entirely copied though properly attributed. Though it appears to be only partially in this case. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 18:03
  • 2
    AFAIK deletion for "plagiarism" does not constitute any extra punishments, so the discussion should be around what the correct action should be in this case, no? It seems to me that the deleted "answer" should have been a comment on the question with a link to the answer, instead. Whether it was plagiarism or not; it definitely shouldn't be an "answer". Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 1:12
  • 2
    @Clockwork that's why flagging the question as a duplicate would have been the correct action, as that comment is directly related to the flag.
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 10:02

4 Answers 4

64

Your answer did mention the source, but it didn't contain any original content. You have copied someone else's answer and received reputation for something you didn't write.

Let me quote the help section on "how to reference material written by others":

Do not copy the complete text of sources; instead, use their words and ideas to support your own. In particular, answers comprised entirely of a quote (sourced or not) will often be deleted since they do not contain any original content.

If you found an answer to a question somewhere else, the correct procedure is to close the question as a duplicate. Do not repost the same answer.

The answer was not in line with our attribution guidelines as mentioned above, which constitues plagiarism. However, even if it was your own answer, it's never ok to post the same answer to two questions.

68
  • 8
    @Clockwork Nothing different. Close as duplicate of where that community wiki lies.
    – iBug
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 11:41
  • 15
    @Clockwork But why? It already exists on the site. Why duplicate it?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 11:41
  • 20
    @Clockwork No, please don't ever duplicate answers. Just close as duplicate. It helps to find the right answer and also reward the original author with rep.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 11:48
  • 8
    @FranckDernoncourt This doesn't matter. As long as the answer is the same the question should be closed as duplicate.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 11:51
  • 19
    @Dharman yes, they can. As a very simple example 2 is the answer to 1 + 1 and 5-3.
    – stevec
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 12:39
  • 10
    @Dharman When I say "different questions", I don't simply mean two separate questions, I mean questions which are non-duplicates. It does happen from time to time that two non-duplicate questions are best answered by an identical answer. There are occasions where it's valuable to the community for an identical or near identical answer to be repeated on the different question, with attribution of course.
    – stevec
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 12:53
  • 25
    @Dharman 'What is 1 + 1?' and 'What is 5 - 3?' proves that theory wrong. Those two questions aren't duplicates, yet they have identical answers.
    – stevec
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 12:58
  • 13
    @stevec Those are not identical questions and should not have identical answers. "What is 1+1?" can have an answer that discusses the addition operator and how it applies to two integer literal operands in a particular language whereas "What is 5-3?" can have an answer that discusses the subtraction operator and how it applies to two integer literal operands in a particular language. Just because the result of the operation is 2 for both does not mean that the description of the solution should be identical for both.
    – MT0
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 13:15
  • 33
    @Dharman: If it was correctly attributed (and it was), it can't be plagiarism -- unless you're redefining what the word plagiarism means. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 16:13
  • 25
    @Dharman plagiarism explicitly requires one to pass off work as their own, which the OP evidently did not do since they attributed it to someone else. Unless you have a new definition of plagiarism.
    – user438383
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 16:29
  • 18
    @Dharman: He didn't merely "mention the author's name" he linked to the answer which was the source. That's definitely not plagiarism. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 17:12
  • 13
    @MisterMiyagi: That code block was immediately followed -- followed as in physically contiguous to -- Then one can issue plt.figure(figsize=cm2inch(12.8, 9.6)). This was reworded in OPs answer to Then you can use plt.figure .... Calling someone a plagiarist is a very big deal, it's not ok to justify it by claiming that it wasn't 100% clear that the five words at the end weren't part of the previous thing even though they immediately followed it. You should only level such an serious accusation if there no reasonable way an objective person could interpret it as anything but plagiarism Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 17:26
  • 10
    @KevinB: Still completely unacceptable and wrong. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 17:41
  • 9
    @KevinB: "Curation" that involves unsustainable allegations of plagiarism are unethical and unacceptable. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 17:44
  • 9
    @KevinB: Now you're just redefining the word plagiarism to suit your argument. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 17:47
18

In my opinion, the answer does not constitute plagiarism. But it does seem there is a good case that it violates the rules regarding material written by others: https://stackoverflow.com/help/referencing

In particular, those rules state:

Do not copy the complete text of sources; instead, use their words and ideas to support your own. In particular, answers comprised entirely of a quote (sourced or not) will often be deleted since they do not contain any original content.

The deleted answer constitutes primarily of material copied by others. That is not what we are looking for here on Stack Exchange. We are looking for answers that consist primarily of new content. One can include material written by others to support that answer, but if most or all of the answer consists of material written by others, then it is not what we are looking for.

The rules make clear that such answers are likely to be deleted... which is what happened here.

I think this is a case of rules violations, not a case of plagiarism. I think there is a reasonable case that this answer should not be considered plagiarism. I think it was a mis-step to leave a deletion reason mentioning the word "plagiarism". That is a sensitive word and use of that word can easily be taken as an accusation of a severe breach of norms. I think the appropriate action was to delete this answer for violating the rules regarding material written by others -- which is different than deleting for plagiarism.

So, what should be done at this point? In my opinion, there is no further action that is worth taking. If you agree with the premise that the answer violates the rules regarding material written by others, then it should remain deleted. There is no public accusation of plagiarism. The reason for deletion is not visible to the public. If there were a public banner marking this answer as plagiarism, then I would recommend that the banner be edited or deleted to avoid a public accusation of plagiarism, and the answer remain deleted for rules violates, but there is no public banner, so that is not relevant. So, there is no remedy and no action needed, beyond communicating to the mod a suggestion of leaving a different reason in the future. That's fine. Mods are insanely busy and aren't perfect and aren't always going to make the perfect decision every time, and we're all learning how to improve.


Separately: the rules require that copied material be placed in a blockquote, to make clear which was copied and which was not. One could debate whether that rule was followed here. My position is that this rule was not followed but it doesn't matter in this case.


Lastly, regarding duplicates: I think this example illustrates that it's hard to write black-and-white rules regarding duplicates. If both questions had been asked today, I think there might be a reasonable argument for closing "How do I change the size of figures drawn with Matplotlib?" as too broad, because it doesn't specify clear requirements about what it is trying to achieve (what size does it want?). But these are existing historical questions with many answer and many views, and we are sometimes a bit more relaxed about applying existing criteria to past questions. The goal of closure criteria is to help us build a high-quality archive of information, in the format of questions and answers, and so actions have to be judged in that light.

And I don't think copying an answer from one of those questions to the other is the most useful way to support our mission of building a high-quality archive of knowledge -- regardless of whether it is allowed by the rules or not, I don't think it is desirable or advances the broader mission very well. For instance, I think leaving a comment that links between the two questions would be a more productive and constructive approach. So when taking an action that isn't well-aligned with the mission of the site, and also arguably violates the rules of the site, don't be surprised if users flag the answer for deletion or if moderators end up deleting the answer.

22
  • 4
    "I think leaving a comment that links between the two questions would be a more productive and constructive approach" -> Comments can be deleted anytime: they aren't viewed as long-lasting content on SE. Also, they shouldn't contain answers. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:04
  • 4
    "don't be surprised if moderators end up taking some action you don't like." -> I was surprised to be accused of plagiarism, despite mentioning the source. Plagiarism is a job killer in my profession, rightfully so. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:05
  • 10
    Ok, I am willing to use different words than plagiarism in this case. I can remove the comment I left altogether. I didn't mean that Franck committed deliberate plagiarism. I only wanted to indicate that the reason for deletion was the answer wasn't written by Franck. We don't have to classify this as plagiarism.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 21:24
  • @FranckDernoncourt, I've revised my answer accordingly. What I was referring to was: don't be surprised if your answer gets deleted, if it isn't well-aligned with the mission of the site and if it plausibly violates the rules of the site. I can appreciate that you don't want to be accused of plagiarism.
    – D.W.
    Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 2:09
  • 1
    @FranckDernoncourt As far as I know, even in a scientific context, your answer would be considered plagiary, because it doesn't correctly quote and cite the materials, and passes of things written by others as your own. The mere presence of a link to a source is not sufficient when writing scientific papers, you must clearly distinguish between what you sourced elsewhere and your own words/ideas. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 9:19
  • @FranckDernoncourt that's why you flag the question as a duplicate as it points to the library of existing answers.
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 10:05
  • 2
    @MarkRotteveel "...The mere presence of a link to a source is not sufficient when writing scientific papers..." I'm all for rigorousness myself, but this is basically setting much higher standards than are typical on this platform (which is not a scientific publication). According to the attribution rules, Franck did it right, a link and a name is all that is needed. If you want to know what exactly are his words, make a diff of the linked version and the actual version. Higher standards might be a really good idea, but then we should expect them from everyone at the same time. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 12:22
  • 2
    @Trilarion Materials sourced from others should be quoted. Just providing attribution is not sufficient. And the comment your quote was about scientific literature, because Franck earlier said "Plagiarism is a job killer in my profession", so I assume Franck is aware of the rules applied in scientific literature, which are more stringent than Stack Overflow (and the consequences more severe), so assuming that Franck upholds the standards of his profession, he should have been aware that his answer did not meet those standards. Being surprised of accusations of plagiarism is then odd. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 12:31
  • 1
    @MisterMiyagi "... very much seems like plagiarism..." But doesn't plagiarism requires as a precondition that one obscures the origin, which Franck didn't do. How can that be plagiarism then? He never pretended that the code is his. Copying as such is not plagiarism, especially not if its about ideas or structure. Almost nothing people do is really original, it's very often ideas taken from elsewhere. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 14:02
  • 1
    @Trilarion The entire content was copied, not just the code. I don't want to speculate on the intentions of Franck (really, I am only keeping this going since people insist this category of behaviour cannot be plagiarism) but "code from X" when in fact all content was adapted obscures the origin. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 14:06
  • 1
    @MarkRotteveel "...you have to quote what you didn't write yourself.." I'm all for such rules but they should be applied equally and in a practical way. Do you really want to put code blocks into quote blocks for example? Wouldn't it be simply enough to say that the following part is taken from somewhere or that this work is inspired by that other work? It's only a programmer knowledge database here. If we really want to fight plagiarism I feel that here we aim at the wrong guy. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 14:06
  • 1
    @MisterMiyagi "..."code from X" when in fact all content was adapted obscures the origin..." I don't fully understand that. The answer is little more than code, so I don't understand the distinction between code and all content and how that obscures the origin. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 14:08
  • 1
    @Trilarion Yes, code copied from another source must be put in a quote block. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 14:32
  • 1
    @FranckDernoncourt: The policy that any comment can be deleted at any time only makes sense if not actually done to useful comments. (Although popular questions do somettimes need cleaning). There are some things like linking a related question that aren't appropriate for whole answers on their own, and can't always work well as an edit to an existing answer or the question. In this case maybe there's a spot in the top answer where an edit could link the metric Q&A, otherwise post a comment. Especially if there aren't a ton of comments already under either the question or a high-ranked answer Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 23:54
  • 3
    @FranckDernoncourt: Yeah, SO moderators make mistakes sometimes :/. Or when enough people flag a comment as "no longer needed", I think it automatically gets deleted. I'm not saying to post the whole answer in comments, I'm saying to post just a link to an answer. Like "Related: Specify figure size in centimeter in matplotlib". That's the whole point, not duplicating content; if anything about how best to do it in cm changes, it can get updated there in one place. Commented Dec 8, 2022 at 0:06
1

This wasn't plagiarism, it was duplication of content that already exists on SO. That's also a bad thing, and is usually avoidable, including in this case. Deletion was appropriate, IMO, but the message chosen was not great.

Separate from actual attribution, you are still earning rep from basically repackaging someone else's answer with minor tweaks. It's not a big deal for you, already having plenty of rep, but it's not a precedent we want to allow for people to do in general. If there was a case where an adapted answer had more value than a link, it would be ok. (But that would probably require more work adapting it, meaning that the user posting it would be more deserving of the rep they got.)


The best thing is for that canonical Q&A about sizing figures in Matplotlib to link to the Q&A about doing it in centimetres. So if people want that, they can find it and go there for the current best way. Answers to that special case only need to be maintained in one place, where a new answer can be added if the library ever does get metric support. Unlike off-site links, link rot isn't a concern.

How to link related questions:

Stack Overflow doesn't have a first-class mechanism for hand-curated lists of related Q&As, so normally this comes down to a bullet list at the bottom of an existing answer. Or sometimes the question, especially for canonical Q&As. As in Editing old questions to add links to similar ones

(Not a link-only answer, though; even without the link-rot concern, an answer isn't the right place for just a link or a list of links. Even if community-wiki. It's likely going to be buried and hard to find, because what would people be voting on? The curation effort? And a list of links to related questions wouldn't even be answering the actual question it was posted under.)


A comment (under the question, or an appropriate answer) is another good place to add a Related: link, especially on lower-traffic questions where questions won't need to be cleaned up periodically. (So probably not this canonical, although it's better than nothing even then, and maybe someone will add it to their answer.) It would look like this.

Related: Specify figure size in centimeter in matplotlib

I use https://stackapps.com/questions/2378/se-comment-link-helper to turn URLs into question titles, making it super easy to copy/paste links into readable comments. In this case the title is self-explanatory, otherwise you might add some text describing why someone would want to look at it. (If the question title can be improved, do that).

Depending on how much value there is in making it more visible, you might comment instead of edit only if there isn't a deep comment thread so it will be visible without people having to click "see more". Otherwise editing a Related: * url list into a canonical question or an existing answer is good, if it can be done without being too intrusive.

Comments being good for this is less true on high-traffic canonical Q&As because comments tend to be more frequent, leading to them getting nuked periodically whether they're useful or not. (This is one of the worst features of Stack Overflow, that there's nowhere officially non-ephemeral to add value to an answer other than editing yourself, or more importantly to explain why an answer to a conceptual question is wrong or outdated despite having lots of upvotes.)

In practice useful comments usually don't get deleted; the policy that any comment can be deleted at any time only works if it's not applied randomly, especially on low-traffic questions. (Although popular questions do sometimes need cleaning as comments build up, and it's understandable but unfortunate that mods don't always have the time to selectively keep highly upvoted comments there. Much less understandable when they nuke useful comments from obscure low-traffic questions.)


Multiple people have argued that if the same answer is appropriate for two questions, they should be closed as duplicates. Neither direction of dup closing would be appropriate in this case. But if not for the existence of the metric Q&A, an answer about doing it in cm would be fully on-topic on the general Q&A. (Franck's argument makes a lot of sense, that many parts of the world use metric units by default, so that's not some obscure use-case.)

  • Specify figure size in centimeter in matplotlib is focused on that problem. Since Matplotlib apparently doesn't directly support centimetres, the answers are about extra stuff you need to do, and wouldn't be good for people looking for the basics of how to set plot sizes or use the library at all.

  • How do I change the size of figures drawn with Matplotlib? is a generic canonical Q&A where the question body just repeats the title, and one of the high-ranked answers (from Ciro) is a whole tutorial with examples. But it's not about cm or metric, so the metric question shouldn't be closed as a duplicate of this or merged.

Since SO does have a whole Q&A for that special case, of using metric units, the general canonical Q&A should link that, because many people might be looking for that.

-4

Your answer wasn't plagiarism, which would require you to copy content without giving attribution. However, you have given attribution and in the required format too (name and link to content).

That answers this question, but lurking in the shadow is the question of, if it wasn't plagiarism, what was it then?

You haven't copied the other answer verbatim (except for the code block). I see differences that mean you put some of your own work into it, even though some people might not see much difference there (but there is a non-zero difference).

It's also a somewhat useful answer, indicated by the positive score.

Furthermore, it's two answers to two separate questions (which are not marked as duplicates currently). Even though answers can be equal to different questions, we currently have no viable way to link multiple questions to the same answer. Therefore, we have no choice but to duplicate answers (if they each answer their question) or simply live without that answer. In general, I prefer copied answers over not having answers to each questions.

Your answer does seem to answer the question (somewhat).

I therefore conclude that this is a legit answer and it should be undeleted because it was deleted in mistake.

However: Two almost identical answers suggest that maybe the questions are duplicates of each other (that should be checked first).

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  • 3
    I'd agree with an argument that it doesn't need to be labeled as plagiarism, but why shouldn't it be deleted? It is no more useful than a comment with a link.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 18:11
  • 5
    @KevinB Comments can be deleted anytime: they aren't viewed as long-lasting content on SE. Also, they shouldn't contain answers. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 18:37
  • 7
    "we currently have no viable way to link multiple questions to the same answer" Yes, we do. We can close questions as duplicates. That's the whole reason why we have this feature.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 18:51
  • 6
    "I see differences that mean you put some of your own work into it." Please enlighten me which part was added in the new answer that wasn't in the old one?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 18:52
  • 2
    @Trilarion It's also upvoted where it was originally posted, and then copied from. It doesn't need to exist in both locations.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:33
  • 1
    @Dharman "Please enlighten me.." Come on. I leave the diff operation on both answers to you. On this level we do not need to argue. To me they are clearly not verbatim copies and it's clear that the asker here put some (minimal but not zero) effort into it. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:37
  • 1
    @Clockwork I realize the diff is different. But there's no original content in the newer answer. Just because they used different words doesn't mean they added something of their own. The whole answer is copied just with minimal stylistic changes to the text.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:43
  • 2
    @Clockwork "the answer should have been left to the community to decide" We can vote but voting doesn't really decide anything here. What exactly do you imagine? Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:44
  • 2
    @Clockwork My impression was that deletion is for harmful content (spam, misleading or wrong content, illegal content) and plagiarism would be counted among them. Now if you think that this isn't plagiarism, you would find it probably harder to justify. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:48
  • 2
    @KevinB "...for cross-posting/copying answers." We are homing in on the core of the problem. When is it appropriate to copy content and when not? Opinions on that probably differ. I understand what you mean but my opinion is different. I rather have an answer next to every different question even if it means to copy answers because the system doesn't allow me to associate questions and answers in a many to many relationship. In this case I prefer a copy on the answer side. You and Dharman do not seem to prefer that. That's it. Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 20:54
  • 2
    The core of the problem is actually how some code regarding conversion to metric units answers the question "How do I change the size of figures drawn with Matplotlib?" It doesn't, it's just a curious and possibly related, helpful detail, but not an answer to the question.
    – Lundin
    Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 7:43
  • 1
    @Lundin The question itself is rather bad, only a single sentence without much context what exactly the goal was. Consequently there are many answers trying to guess what the OP wanted to achieve. This answer surely tries to answer the question in the commonly used meaning here that everything that looks vaguely related is not subject to deletion. Typically we trust the voters that they get it right. A negative score would be perfectly okay with me. Deletion is in my eyes moderation deciding in place of users. Users should have decided this not moderators and copying is not bad as such. Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 12:19
  • 1
    @Dharman: Have you looked at the two questions? Franck's answer was posted on How do I change the size of figures drawn with Matplotlib?, a generic canonical Q&A where the question body just repeats the title, and one of the high-ranked answers (from Ciro) is a whole tutorial with examples. The duplicate you're proposing is much more specific, Specify figure size in centimeter in matplotlib. That duplicate closure would not be at all appropriate. Commented Dec 8, 2022 at 0:02
  • 1
    @PeterCordes I am not proposing a duplicate and I haven't voted to close these questions as duplicate. That's not the topic of the discussion here.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Dec 8, 2022 at 0:03
  • 2
    @Dharman: I didn't think you were actually proposing closing, but you did comment Yes, we do. We can close questions as duplicates. That's the whole reason why we have this feature as if that's what Franck should have done here instead. But no, that wouldn't have been a good option, so that argument doesn't make any sense in the context of this case; that's the point I was trying to make. Commented Dec 8, 2022 at 0:14

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