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This is becoming ridiculous:

"The next suggestion that you or others knowingly break the rules will come with a suspension." Cody Gray (Moderator)

Moderators seem to have a serious talk with the rest of the community. They have unilaterally decided that "rules" need to be enforced with the maximum effect, and those rules are basically made up to make processes as painful and cumbersome as possible as possibly:

  • Tag burnination: from the tame Shog guidance to the absolute monstrosity that the SO burnination "rule" is (also, the only site with such rule as noted by the same Shog post)
  • Edits: from the help center reasonable "Any time you see a post that needs improvement and are inclined to suggest an edit, you are welcome to do so" to the totally absurd "change the question into something different [even if no one has answered it]" is not ever allowed.
  • Explaining how the site works: this doesn't need explanation due to recent events.

No one, ever, has been suspended by not following the help center to the T. Nor has anyone ever been suspended by not following meta. Moderators need to go out on a forced vacation and maybe reconsider what rules they should actually be enforcing that go with the mission that the community sets itself. Or maybe we should simply recall them and have other elections.

Moderators, the rulemaking is not only yours. You are first and foremost representatives of the community, even those that do not participate on meta and are simply silent consumers of our content. Your collective behavior has shown that your cutthroat and unmoderated approach is becoming more pervasive. You are supposed to be a beacon of moderation. Use your powers with moderation.

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    This isn't going to help. Argue for more relaxed restrictions, but don't indict the mods. They have a hard job and must balance conflicting priorities. Commented May 27, 2022 at 19:18
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    The most recent case of your objections was regarding not wanting to follow the rules and procedures for tag burnination. The requirement that there be rules for burnination and that the rules must be followed, is a Stack Exchange Company imposed requirement. There is no arguing about that one. You could create a meta post to discuss and try to revise the rules, but unilaterally choosing not to follow the existing burnination rules is something which Stack Exchange, the company, has said is unacceptable.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 19:20
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    @RobertHarvey they need to be indicted if they can't balance themselves. I'm sure that you were recommended to walk away when you are over-burned. Heck, I remember a comment were some moderators were conversing with a CM about removing cynicism from seeing so much crap every day. I argued at some point that moderators should have mandated vacations and incorporate more moderators instead.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 19:56
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    @Makyen "Stack Exchange Company imposed requirement", care to point out exactly the post where they did? Bluefeet only say "discuss burninations on meta", Shog says "consider these criteria before burninate". No one from SE added in the 50 questions, nor Shog said one of these conditions must apply (he said that a good tag should meet the four criteria), so if you are seeing a requirement by SE, I, personally, can't see it.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 20:01
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    So, up until now only SO moderators imposed requirements have been applied: the 50 questions tagged was added in by Bhargav Rao while he was moderator which rene introduced as a ballpark. The "must fail all" was also introduced by Bhargav Rao. Notably, the lack of CM's there. I could also dig the other two posts, and I'm sure I would find Undo on the NAA's, ... [\cont]
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 20:11
  • Cody and you on editing questions and answers, and the ENTIRE TEAM on comments informing users how the site work.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 20:11
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    @Braiam You've been opposing this since at least 2017. Nothing has really changed since Taryn posted "a friendly reminder that we have a process to do this and that it should be followed." That you're choosing not to understand this is your choice. If you want to point out specific changes to the wording in the burnination process post since 2017-09-22 which you feel violate the intent expressed by Taryn or the intent behind the burnination process, you're welcome to do so, but the burden is on you.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 20:13
  • I presume this question is in relation to the (now deleted) suggestion that the burnination policy be ignored for this burnination request… (to anyone that didn’t see, someone suggested that we just get rid of the tag without following official policy for removing tags and that discussion happened multiple times even after a mod note was added to the request saying we must follow policy). That discussion happened in the comments three times, each time the suggestion to ignore policy was made it got cleared by mods
    – cocomac
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 21:39
  • @cocomac "someone suggested that we just get rid of the tag without following official policy" and I want to know who did that, because I didn't.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 23:32
  • @Braiam chat.stackoverflow.com/… (read from bottom to top)
    – Andrew T.
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 23:42
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    I like how Braiam clearly mention me being the user who added the "all", but fails to mention that it was removed in a previous edit, which I just added back. The original post had "all" meta.stackoverflow.com/revisions/324071/1 ... Commented May 28, 2022 at 18:07
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    @BhargavRao Are you reading the same thing?! "50 questions tagged", there's no 50 there at all. "must fail all" was also not there. So, maybe review again, since the only edits that add those two requirements are exclusively yours
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 2, 2022 at 15:01
  • @AndrewT. interesting, someone does it, but I'm the one penalized/accused for it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 3, 2022 at 13:46

1 Answer 1

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These aren't moderator-set rules, they are rules set by CMs—i.e., staff. It is also, by a chance, a rule that at least the majority of the moderator team agrees with*, so we're happy to continue enforcing it, as we do with all the other site policies.

If it were really true that we thought the rules/guidelines were wrong, then we'd be attempting to make logical arguments against them and trying to get the standing policy changed.

* I hedge this statement not because I specifically know of any moderators who disagree with this policy, but because I am aware that I do not know the positions of all moderators and certainly haven't conducted a poll.

This is becoming ridiculous

I'm sorry that you don't like clear, unambiguous communication, but I don't want there to be any confusion or "I didn't know" excuses.

Maybe I'm biased, since it's my comment, but I really don't think what I said counts as anywhere in the vicinity of "ridiculous".

They have unilaterally decided that "rules" need to be enforced with the maximum effect

No, just that serial offenders and rabble-rousers who are encouraging other users to break the rules need to be stopped. If rules were being enforced with the maximum effect, all accounts belonging to rule-breakers would be suspended for 1 year or just deleted outright. That's not happening, so maybe the hyperbole is wrong.

those rules are basically made up to make processes as painful and cumbersome as possible as possibly

Well, sort of. The rules were made up by staff to create a significant barrier on the removal of tags. That was by design; there needs to be a high bar for the carrying out of tasks involving the destruction of content. So, yes, there are a lot of rules, and they're somewhat cumbersome.

Tag burnination: from the tame Shog guidance to the absolute monstrosity that the SO burnination "rule"

The officially-stated rule that tag burninations must go through Meta is from Taryn (bluefeet) (who was staff at the time, for those who don't know), not Shog. But semantics aside, the burnination rules were developed largely by and in close consultation with Shog, and they are consistent in every way with his guidance and thinking—note many direct quotes and near-exact paraphrases. They are also widely supported by the community, including the "silent majority" which you attempt to invoke in defense of your position.

Edits: from the help center reasonable "Any time you see a post that needs improvement and are inclined to suggest an edit, you are welcome to do so" to the totally absurd "change the question into something different [even if no one has answered it]" is not ever allowed.

First, if you're trying to position "you are welcome to do so" as giving yourself a carte blanche to ignore all other rules/guidelines/constraints, then I'm going to dismiss that by borrowing your word: "ridiculous".

Second, it's not a novel interpretation, or even a moderator-created interpretation, of the editing guidelines that users aren't allowed to completely replace an existing question with a new one. That's not editing, that's de facto deletion. I explained this to you already just a few hours ago, and others have been explaining it to you for years.

If you have a new, different question, then you should ask a new, different question, not edit an existing one into something completely different. It's really not all that complicated, and it doesn't require any nuance. The Help Center article that you, yourself, quoted is pretty clear about the circumstances in which one should edit posts and what edits are meant to accomplish.

I actually agree with you that too many people are too hesitant to edit questions. I completely endorse radical edits that make major changes to a question if those edits mean the difference between a question that would need to be closed/deleted for failing to meet our minimum standards and a question that is a valuable contribution to our knowledge base. But still, the minimum expectation is that the author's intent be respected and the fundamental topic of the question remain the same. If it was a different question entirely, it should be asked as a different question entirely.

In about 30 seconds of searching MSO, I found this answer from 2015, posted by a non-moderator, explaining that it is "absolutely not" allowed for the author of a question to make an edit that completely changes it, observing that they "should've asked a new question, instead". There are many others I've seen over the years (oh, look, here's another one!), which I don't have the desire to go look up at the moment, and many more even older ones over on MSE.

I would also like to point out that, contra your accusations about moderators not using common sense and slavishly enforcing rules, I didn't take any steps to enforce what I am on record believing is a rule that the author of a question should not make an edit that completely changes it into a different question. In this recent case, I merely explained to the user that this is technically a rule violation, but chose to permit it based on my subjective assessment of the totality of circumstances. I guess that's what tyrants do, too.

Explaining how the site works: this doesn't need explanation due recent events.

I've been told that this is what moderators do. Ironically, "explaining how the site works" was used as the primary justification for why commenters should be able to leave comments that moderators wanted to ask them to stop leaving.

No one, ever, has been suspended by not following the help center to the T. Nor has anyone ever been suspended by not following meta.

No, of course not. However, users have been suspended for knowingly breaking the rules and continuing to do so even after being asked to stop. You, personally, have been warned about this exact thing on multiple occasions. Ignorance is not a defense here.

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    So instead of attempting to clarify with the community what would be considered "productive" work with respect to tag removals, the SE staff simply increased the friction to the point where most tag removals became too onerous to bother with. Commented May 27, 2022 at 19:52
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    "they are rules set by CMs" where? I can, and I think you know, read the revisions of those post. None of them, zero, were written by staff. Unless you are including the moderator team on such category. None of the post I've alluded to. So, no, I don't think you are applying rules, but interpreting guidelines as you collectively like. And if CM's are issuing such guidance in private, then it's your job to tell them how those things...
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 19:53
  • are implemented, in meta, with a public discussion.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 19:53
  • @RobertHarvey I think you really need to read the revision history, since right now, blaming CM's seems to be trowing them under the bus.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 19:54
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    You have to love the silent majority. Those mother <expletive deleted>s back EVERYTHING. They're consistently on both sides of every argument. Commented May 27, 2022 at 20:58
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    @RobertHarvey In my understanding, that increase of friction wasn't some accidental consequence, nor a refusal to actually deal with the process; it was an intentional choice in line with SE's philosophy on tag burninations– largely that they are a waste of time, unless the tag is explicitly causing actual harm. This idea has been fundamental to the formal burn process from the begining. The friction isn't avoiding the problem, it's designed to save people from "a complete and utter waste of everyone's time", to quote that very post.
    – zcoop98
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 22:02
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    If it was as hard to make a tag as it is to get rid of one we'd have a different problem. Pretty sure there's some middle ground in there though. It should take more than one member with 1500 rep. It should be some amount of rep, maybe 1500, and the willingness to write the tag wiki and champion the new tag in front of a review board of people who know they'll have to burninate the sucker later if they choose poorly. Commented May 27, 2022 at 22:24
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    You might be interested in this recent discussion then, btw, @user4581301
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 27, 2022 at 22:39

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