74

Given the rate of the creation of new tags on the main site, many of which just end up or need to be burninated, should there be a system in place to make the tag-creating process more than just a type & enter for users with over 1500 rep (which about 175,000 have at the moment)?

Something like a peer review, or a higher rep threshold?


EDIT: This post is not a duplicate to It's time for a new process around tag creation: Tags should be reviewed before they are created as it doesn't limit the process to only reviewing.

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    Yes, would definitely love to see that - there's only one tiny little problem called "SE, Inc. involvement required", which basically makes it close to "never happening". But surely, yeah, - trash tags that then end up taking a lot of effort to clean out start here, at someone adding them without thinking.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 22, 2022 at 22:20
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    May be related: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/386549/5779732
    – Amit Joshi
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 11:57
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    @AmitJoshi Interesting how that question was received much more negatively 3 years ago compared to this.
    – Alex
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 9:02
  • @Alex To put it another way, it "only" took 3 years for the community at large to accept that there's a problem. While I'd love to say that being proven correct makes me happy, the fact that so much time has been wasted has the opposite effect.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 9:22
  • @Alex You might want to know from where things come from, since this topic is not kinda new.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 16:59
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    Not sure if it has been suggested before but an idea that popped into my head is that perhaps tag creation can only be done if you invest reputation points, say 50 rep. That'll setup a Gollum-driven barrier which will make people think twice about creating tags just for the heck of it. And perhaps as a "reward" a tag could list the person that created it as a sort of badge of honour.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 31, 2022 at 12:21
  • This is a duplicate to that other recent discussion of the same topic. (I very recently posted an answer myself in that other thread in an attempt to draw more attention to it) There are lot of good answers to that post though - so please don't take this close vote as an attempt to put a lid on the discussion, which would be the opposite of what I want. Rather, please migrate all input there and consider the arguments already raised. It isn't helping if we fragment the discussion across several threads. Maybe we could merge these two posts?
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 22, 2022 at 7:55
  • That is, unlike main SO, answers on meta tagged "discussion" do not need to exactly address the concerns in the question, but answers with alternative approaches and ideas are welcome. They just need to be on-topic, is all.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 22, 2022 at 7:58

3 Answers 3

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Should creating a tag require a more refined process?

Yes, it should.

It would be very nice if we did not have an asymmetrical relationship between one user with 1.5K+ reputation being able to create problems that take multiple users and often moderators to deal with via disambiguation, synonymization, retagging, and burnination.

Ideally, it would be a full-scale review system with 2-3 (take your pick) users required to approve the tag. It would also help if, in addition (or at least instead) to that, users were required to create (or suggest until they can do so unilaterally) both an excerpt and a tag wiki for the proposed tag.

As for increasing reputation threshold, not a big fan - understanding of how the site works is empirically confirmed to not be a product of reputation accumulation, we will only end up shifting the problem.


Now, since we are finished daydreaming, here is a tiny problem: any such thing would require Stack Exchange, Inc. to step in and help us out.

Which, given that the tag system is one of the most underloved systems on the site, would be quite a task.

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    Pending tag synonyms also sit in an obscure place within the UI (among other issues). If there were a review queue/system for tag actions (like creation) perhaps synonyms could also be evaluated there. That may help reduce the chance of a pending synonym hanging around for ~4 years.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 0:00
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    yeah, brrr, @HenryEcker, a mere thought of the tag synonym system gives me chills :) It is in dire need for rework into some sort of a manageable system, be it a queue or something else.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 0:02
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    I'm very much in favor of requiring tag creators to also provide, at least, the excerpt, and I suspect this would have an immediate effect of reducing the number of new tags, if anything because many might find the additional task too time-consuming
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 8:46
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    The problem with the required excerpt is that it's easily copy-pasted from an external source, which is explicitly illegal, as it's plagiarism... The reviewers would have to be very aware of how to detect and handle plagiarism like that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 12:36
  • And we are, @Cerbrus :) BSOR regularly reviews plagiarism and ensures it does not get through (although there are cases where the license on the external resource permits copying, so not all instances are "illegal", it's still against the rules, yeah). The point being that such a requirement wouldn't change much compared to the current state of affairs, fortuantely or not.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 15:23
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    @Oleg I don’t know what BSOR is nor do I assume regular users acting in that review would… My point is thatadding a review queue is far from a perfect solution, especially on matters like these that require some knowledge and dedication to the quality of the site.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 15:45
  • BSOR. Not saying there needs to be a standalone review queue, but at least a requirement to not create tags if you aren't going to take care of them in the first place seems quite beneficial to me. As for plagiarism, speaking from experience as an active reviewer of suggested edits, it happens either way - 1/3 of tag wiki/excerpt suggestions are copy-pasted from other resources, there isn't much we can do about that.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 15:50
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    @Cerbrus Honest question; unless a post uses language that I recognize from some public source without attribution (which may or may not be from another post on Stack Overflow), how am I supposed to identify plagiarism from works I am not familiar with?
    – codewario
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:00
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    Most plagiarism is easily found by just copying the text into Google, surrounded by quotes.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:08
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    Speaking from experience, 99% of the time, plagiarism (or just "copied content", if we use a less condemning terminology) is very easy to spot: it usually checks a couple of points: the text is usually disconnected from SO (f.e., no guidance, no properly formatted links) and/or reads like a sales pitch (granted, there are a couple of unicorns that seem to actually write everything as a sales pitch, but those are rare). cc @BendertheGreatest
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:18
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    @Cerbrus While I agree that catching plagiarism is definitely something that should happen, I think expecting reviewers to copy/paste/search every paragraph of text in a post they are reviewing is a bit much. Searching the entire text body is probably a bit more feasible, but would only catch plagiarism if the entire post is copied word for word.
    – codewario
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:21
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    Yes, I think we agree on that, @Cerbrus :) Just noting that I don't think it would be that much of a problem if users were required to provide both excerpt and a wiki, besides, dealing with problematic edits is quite easy - we already do that on a daily basis.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:53
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    There's no direct causation between rep and familiarity between the system, but it does serve as a useful gate to reduce the frequency of the occurrence, and thus the frequency of problematic occurrences. Granted, putting a more robust gate in place like your daydream section suggests would be far superior to a simple rep-only gate.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 21:15
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    Oh, couldn't agree more, @TylerH. It serves some purpose, I can give the current system that (at least it saves us from crestion of "hashtags" en masse by users completely new to the site and incapable of reading and following a single rule). Just wish we had a system where relevant actions grant relevant privileges as opposed to braindead exp accumulation (we could literally go comatose and crawl to the next privilege level just by vurtue of existing contributions)...
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 21:23
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    If plagiarism is a concern, it's unrealistic to let reviewers do the legwork of checking. Including an automated plagiarism check is way more efficient.
    – Joooeey
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 8:57
31

Perhaps a new review queue, one centered around Questions with New Tags could be implemented. That would require SE's involvement of course but such a queue could have the following guidance/purpose:

  • Review posts with newly created tags, say, tags that have been created within 30 days or so of being applied to the question (other metrics for determining a "new tag" may be more appropriate instead)
  • Essentially, reviewers would be asked to confirm that the tags on the post meet the current burnination criteria (quoted with minor changes below):
    • Do the tags describe the contents of the question to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous?
    • Is the concept described for each tag on topic for the site?
    • Do the tags add any meaningful information to the post?
    • Do the tags mean the same thing in all common contexts?

One or more of following actions should be taken on the post:

  • Looks OK - The question and all of its tags appear on topic for the site. This action should be mutually exclusive from the others below.
  • Remove/Replace Tags - One or more tags need to be removed as they fail the burn criteria. Removed tags may be replaced with more relevant existing ones.
  • Close Question - The question itself has content or topicality problems the asker must address, and should be voted for closure accordingly. Offending tags should still be removed since deletion isn't guaranteed outside of the proper Burnination process.
  • Edit Question - The question looks okay from a tag perspective but the content could be improved in other ways by the community.

Removal of a new tag via an edit should not remove the post from this queue, only review actions by reviewers until the question is closed or the question is edited enough that it received enough Looks Okay judgements.

I feel this would be a good direction to go in, as it:

  • Covers what burnination sets out to do today, including curation
  • Gamifies it, resolving the lack of reward which burnination suffers from (of course there would need to be appropriate review badges)
  • Creates a proactive process out of the current reactive process that burnination is, getting in front of bad tags before they balloon to an irremedial state.

This replace burnination; it can coexist alongside it. There are still existing bad tags that need to be cleaned up and removed.

I'm open to suggestions for improving this idea and hearing opposing arguments as to why this wouldn't be a good idea (other than SE wouldn't bother implementing).

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    No this is genius as it pretty much lifts on existing mechanisms rather than completely new ones needing to be invented (reviewing a question VS reviewing a tag).
    – Gimby
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 11:52
  • Yeah..., but some (advanced) Knowledge/Expertise in the Field/Language/Technology involved in the Qt would be necessary for the Reviewers to be able to asses newly created Tags... Maybe the Package/Library/Function is "new" (from some Version), or there is/are already some other Tag(s) that could be used instead and a new Tag is not needed...
    – chivracq
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 12:33
  • @chivracq I clarified that the Remove Tag action should really be Remove/Replace. Additionally, we shouldn't be removing tags simply because we don't know what they are. The first and second burn reasons cover this; if you don't know what the tag is, then you can't answer to whether it fails the criteria and it should not be removed.
    – codewario
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 13:02
  • Yeah, but a "(new) Tag Review System" should take place before the Tag even gets created (like OP and @OlegValter are proposing), not after, then it feels a bit like a "simplified/speed Burnination", ... which would still be useful indeed, the sooner a Tag gets identified as potentially creating "Problems" later, the better...! // And Review Queues are always based on Rep, not on Expertise (in a specific Field)...
    – chivracq
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 13:16
  • True, but getting SE to implement new features is like pulling teeth; this largely leverages existing functionality which might be an easier sell (just requires new queue, new query for applicable posts, actions to take on the post) rather than proposing a new site mechanism altogether.
    – codewario
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 13:40
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    One correction to my penultimate comment (before this one): "if you don't know what the tag is, then you can't answer to whether it fails the criteria and it should not be removed (by you) "
    – codewario
    Commented May 25, 2022 at 16:04
  • It doesn't have to be a new queue, per se. Having a prominent warning where you can either defer publishing of your question until the question, and thus the addition of the new tag, has been approved by reviewers, or remove the new tag and publish immediately, would probably be a potent deterrent against adding new tags gratuitously.
    – tripleee
    Commented Jun 22, 2022 at 7:53
-11

Maybe, "tag categories" would make the meaning and necessity of a tag clearer and the decision easier as well as finding duplicate or poorly named tags. But that would take some work to implement, I guess:

  • language (e.g. php, js, etc.)

  • language version (e.g. php-8.0, ecma-6, etc. → {language}-{version})

  • concept (e.g. security, data storage, etc.)

  • language feature (e.g. java-pointers, laravel-query-builder, etc. → {language}-{feature})

  • data structures (e.g. array, lists, numbers, etc.)

  • error message (e.g. mysql-error-1054, etc.)

  • plattform/software/package (e.g. visual-studio-code, ms-office, etc. → ({publisher}-){software})

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    Tags work by being flat, ie. no required dependency tree. That's why tags are so bloated, people really try to give it dependencies.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 25, 2022 at 10:49

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