21

Note: Thank you for the answers and discussion. It's clear from the feedback that "wild guesses" are a valid "answer", although not necessarily a good one. I now understand that they (may) warrant downvotes (or, for 10k+ users, delete votes when warranted) rather than NAA flags.

Referring to this answer (and its Low Quality review for those with access). I was surprised at having my "Not an answer" flag declined, especially after seeing that two other users suggested the same thing after mine was declined. With 225 flags raised, 132 helpful, and only 6 declines so far (still a relative newbie, I realize), this is the first one I've really struggled with.

Breaking down this "answer", it has two parts:

you can try reinstalling wsl2.

So let me start by asking, should "reinstall" with no supporting information or theory be an answer or a comment?

"Reinstall" absolutely can be a valid and correct answer, but shouldn't there be supporting information on why it might be needed and could fix the problem.

In this case, I know this won't fix the problem, because reinstalling Windows Subsystem for Linux won't resolve an issue with the "VM". Technically, for those that aren't familiar with WSL, it would be the same as recommending reinstallation of VMWare or VirtualBox because you messed up the grub config in your VM.

But admittedly, that I know this is wrong is completely irrelevant to whether or not it should be an answer or a comment.

If the user is suggesting a reinstall, then I would propose the burden is on them to explain why in their answer; otherwise it should be a comment.

I'm not entirely sure on why you can't edit the file. maybe open a cmd window as admin and navigating to where the file is then using vim to edit it?

Ok, maybe an attempt at an answer, but it seems to me to be more of a wild-guess, WAG, Hail Mary, or whatever your local slang would call it. It's even phrased as a question.

If the user readily admits that they really have no idea if what they are proposing is feasible and has done no research on it, then shouldn't that be a comment?


Ultimately, I chose to flag this as "Not an answer" because of those two issues. I don't think "Very low quality" applies, given the flag description that it is "unlikely to be salvageable". This example could be salvaged as an answer with more detail, but it would require the user to provide that detail (not the community).

Plus the fact that this was posted by a user with low enough rep that they couldn't comment made it seem that posting as an "answer" was an attempt to circumvent the comment limitation.

I assume that the other two users who reviewed this and flagged it as "Not an answer" did so for similar reasons.

Are we wrong? Is there a reason that this should be left as an answer? Or should we have handled it another way?


Related -- If we agree that:

  • "Reinstall" without supporting information is not a valid answer and
  • A "wild guess" without supporting information is not a valid answer

Then what's the right way to handle these reviews in the future?

From What is the "not an answer" flag and what is its purpose?:

When should I not use this flag?

The answer makes an attempt to answer the question, even if it is wrong or inaccurate or you disagree with it

Okay, but how low do we set the bar on what qualifies as an "attempt"? Is a wild-guess without supporting information an "attempt"?

The problem with the answer is subtle and would benefit from additional explanation ... ... then raise the "in need of moderator intervention" flag instead, and explain in detail why you think the answer violates the site rules and should thus be removed.

Well that's a struggle. First of all, the problem didn't seem subtle to me or the two other users who flagged it. Second, is there really any way to explain the problem in the tiny one-liner text entry that we are allowed on "In need of moderator intervention" flags?

Should I raise an "In need of moderator intervention" flag at this point and link back to this question with the rationale?

24
  • 34
    Yes, a wild guess is an attempt, unfortunately
    – Kevin B
    Oct 7, 2021 at 23:17
  • 1
    @KevinB Fair enough, but (a) should it be? and (b) Is there somewhere that's been covered? I couldn't find anything in quite a few meta searches. Thanks! Oct 7, 2021 at 23:22
  • 2
    When to flag an answer as “not an answer”. which you link yourself. The queue serves to validate that flag. There's also Reviewing my Low Quality Posts Reviews and You're doing it wrong: A plea for sanity in the Low Quality Posts queue
    – Scratte
    Oct 7, 2021 at 23:28
  • 30
    It’s, simple really. If it isn’t a link only answer, isn’t gibberish, and isn’t spam, it’s an answer. It should be voted on, not flagged.
    – Kevin B
    Oct 7, 2021 at 23:28
  • 1
    About the two flags, "Not an Answer" and "Very Low Quality", the only difference for them on Answers is that the latter is automatically marked helpful when the post is edited. See Very low quality vs not an answer and Merge the “Not An Answer” and “Very Low Quality” flags into one. Note that the auto-downvote has since been removed.
    – Scratte
    Oct 7, 2021 at 23:32
  • 9
    Not an answer is a hard sell. The answer can be eye-bleedingly wrong and still be an answer. In that case downvote it and if you have a delete vote available, use it. Oct 7, 2021 at 23:33
  • 1
    @user4581301 I think delete votes are not available for Answers until 20K reputation points.
    – Scratte
    Oct 7, 2021 at 23:34
  • 1
    Yup. Which makes it a bit less likely that you have a delete vote available. Oct 7, 2021 at 23:54
  • 1
    @Scratte Thanks for those links. Interestingly, the top answer in "You're doing it wrong" says "short one-liners that technically attempt to answer the question, but are really nowhere near enough to actually help anyone solve the problem at hand" would be better off as comments. Another answer in that same question says, "... answers that are strong candidates for deletion ... belong to low rep or anon users with no real commitment to the community [or] ... are short in length [or] .... do not explain much of anything." It seems to me that this example fails on all of those counts. Oct 8, 2021 at 0:29
  • Curiosity since I've been fortunate enough to have never run afoul of a flag this this - When an answer is deleted, is it still visible to the original author for editing to improve it? Oct 8, 2021 at 0:39
  • 1
    @NotTheDr01ds It is still available, but new users will not know how to find it and will not know how to get it undeleted. The "belong to low rep or anon users with no real commitment to the community" is pretty silly, if you ask me. Why would an answer be any worse or better just because of the user posting it? Also, "short in length" is pretty silly too. Lots of great Answers are just one-liners.
    – Scratte
    Oct 8, 2021 at 0:41
  • 1
    @NotTheDr01ds The problem with "[Does] not explain much of anything" is that even if there's no explanation, it could be a valid one. So if you have an issue and you're desperate to find a solution, it makes no sense to have to have 10K to see those quick ones that you can try out to see if works. Also, I assume there's no crime in editing in an explanation to someone else's one-liner :)
    – Scratte
    Oct 8, 2021 at 0:59
  • 1
    @NotTheDr01ds this line refers to the 10K privilege that adds a deleted:1 search operator: "You also have a new search operator available to find your own deleted posts: deleted:1.". See the help center on 10K privilege Oct 8, 2021 at 2:40
  • 4
    It's that pervasive communication problem again. People keep calling NAA "Not An Answer" but it is "Not an Attempt to Answer". Big difference.
    – Gimby
    Oct 8, 2021 at 12:53
  • 3
    @AndrewMorton There is no official rule against voting to delete posts being discussed on Meta (if you notice, there are already delete votes on both the question and the answer, though the delete vote on the answer was already there before it was linked to from this meta IIRC). Personally, I would wait for 2 days from the time this Meta was made (so that <10k users can see what the discussion is about). Once a question is linked from meta, it'll get deleted eventually if it needs to be; I don't believe rushing it serves any useful purpose. Not to mention that it will roomba in a week's time.
    – cigien
    Oct 8, 2021 at 16:22

3 Answers 3

31

I was surprised at having my "Not an answer" flag declined, especially after seeing that two other users suggested the same thing after mine was declined

It may be surprising at first, but it is the way how NAA flags are handled. NAA is, by definition, something that is not an answer. Note the "is not" modal - if you think it should not, then it is still an answer. Technically inaccurate or wild-guess answers are, again, by definition, answers, and are thus not subject to NAA flags.

So let me start by asking, should "reinstall" with no supporting information or theory be an answer or a comment?

It probably should but it is not, hence the declined NAA. Feel free to downvote it though, cast a delete vote when you get the privilege, or make a [del-pls] request in SOCVR (PSA: for the love of all things holy, please, strictly follow the rules outlined in the FAQ and consider not doing that unless it really needs to go).

There is another problem (which is likely not what happened in this case, but something to keep in mind) in that some people prefer to use non-assertive language when providing solutions as well as just using "try" as a perlocutionary act (the notorious "try this" answers are one such example).

Okay, but how low do we set the bar on what qualifies as an "attempt"? Is a wild-guess without supporting information an "attempt"?

As low as needs to be to not qualify as a/an:

  • clarification request ("What is your browser/OS/version?")
  • ineligible gibberish (this is VLQ territory)
  • redirect statement ("The article/answer/question/post will help you")
12
  • 19
    Just have to say it: That wikipedia article is wicked. Oct 8, 2021 at 7:55
  • @MisterMiyagi looks ok to me :) But my mind may be corrupted due to being a formal logic grad Oct 8, 2021 at 8:14
  • 1
    The other factor here is that if someone's wild guess happens to be right, other people that know it's right might want to upvote it. (Although posting a separate answer that says why it's right would normally be better). Or people who try it and find that it actually works might upvote it but not know why, and thus would upvote. (In some hypothetical case, not necessarily this one). That's what makes it an answer: a concrete suggestion to try. As you say, if it's dumb or bad, like try rm -rf your directory and start again, it should be downvoted. (or flagged as malicious for rm -rf) Oct 8, 2021 at 9:26
  • 2
    @PeterCordes not to mention that sometimes rm -rf and start again is actually a valid answer :) Another thought (credit for it goes to Scratte - I only concur) to add is removing bad but valid answers both voids the effort others took in warning about it and actually removes a piece of useful information - that doing so is a bad practice. Methinks we learn from both good and bad examples provided the latter are marked as such. Oct 8, 2021 at 9:36
  • 1
    Interesting point; incorporated that into my answer. (I realized my previous comment was basically an answer so I expanded it into one.) Oct 8, 2021 at 9:42
  • Note, that NAA is not only NAA is NAAFTQA (not an answer to the question asked), which the flag description further explains: This was posted as an answer, but it does not attempt to answer the question
    – Braiam
    Oct 8, 2021 at 13:31
  • 2
    @Braiam oh, that's a mess for someone else to sort out - if a post does look like it attempts to answer the question, it is not NAA in my opinion, but I have mixed feelings about answers that do not even attempt to answer the question but surely look like an answer. What would be better, though, for every side of that debate, is a queue of sorts restricted to SMEs where such questions could go (no definition of an SME given here). Mods definitely should not be the ones to determine if something is the answer or not, methinks. Oct 8, 2021 at 13:39
  • "..we learn from both good and bad examples provided the latter are marked as such." From good examples one can always learn, from bad examples only if they are somehow surprising in a way that one would actually reasonably think about that in a specific context. rm -rf is almost always a bad idea, still I would not post it below almost every question as an example of a bad example so people learn from it. Oct 8, 2021 at 15:37
  • 3
    I know ineligible gibberish is a typo or near enough to have the same effect, but it does raise the question, What would eligible gibberish look like? Oct 8, 2021 at 17:00
  • @user4581301 that depends on how you define eligibility :) You can surely have a set of rules where gibberish is eligible! Oct 8, 2021 at 17:12
  • 2
    I know what it sounds like. Listened to more than a few political debates. But Looks like? I guess competition code written for online judges comes close. Oct 8, 2021 at 17:19
  • I heard a certain "pilot" comes close to it too Oct 8, 2021 at 17:21
14

If someone's wild guess happens to be right, other people that know it's right might want to upvote it. (Although posting a separate answer that says why it's right would normally be better).

Or people who try it and find that it actually works might upvote it but not know why, and thus would upvote. (In some hypothetical case, not necessarily this one). That's what makes it an answer: a concrete suggestion to try. Regardless of whether it's good or not, or explained, or logical.

If it's dumb or bad, like "try rm -rf your directory and start again", it should be downvoted. (If it's a suggestion as destructive as deleting a bunch of things most people would want to keep, it may need to be flagged as malicious with a custom flag, not NAA, but "reinstall" has well-understood consequences and isn't an rm command that someone might copy/paste and then regret.)

At some point, there's a sliding scale of how wrong a guess can be and still be considered an answer by most reasonable people, but it's been made clear by moderators that NAA only applies if something can't possibly be considered a valid answer to any on-topic question. (More or less; I know that phrasing isn't bulletproof.) They want to handle those flags quickly without having to really read the question, so it's for cases where someone is clearly posting a reply to another answer, not an actual answer, or things like that.

The same standard applied to the previously-separate Very Low Quality flag reason, which made it completely pointless and highly misleading, so it's a good thing that's been removed.

So basically, even if it crosses your personal threshold for not even being a real answer anymore, just downvote (and delete vote if possible). And optionally comment to request explanation for why they think this is a good answer. But don't bother the moderators with it.

Oleg points out Scratte's idea that a known-bad answer can be useful to future readers as a way not to do things. e.g. signal that this idea has already been thought of and rejected because it doesn't work or is strictly worse than some better way. So a downvoted answer can have a benefit to future readers that would go away if deleted. e.g. seeing that a "reinstall" answer was downvoted to oblivion would hint future readers that there should be a better way.

3
  • 6
    I first noticed this when I was in a git-pickle and searching for solutions. One Answer said something akin to "just delete your .git folder". It didn't have a positive score, but it had a highly TinyVoted™ comment along the lines of "I just did that and my entire repository is gone now!". To me that was just a lot more informative than if the Answer had not been there. Needless to say, I put that on my "Don't ever try this"-list :)
    – Scratte
    Oct 8, 2021 at 10:20
  • 5
    Your pointer to Oleg's pointer to Scratte's idea is a very important pointer. Bad answers are actually good. Oct 8, 2021 at 15:18
  • What if OP says in the question "I have tried to reboot but the issue remains" and the answer just says "Reboot your computer?" Jan 19 at 15:16
6

I'm often surprised how my "wild guess" answers turn out to be right. When you've been working in a field for a long time, you become familiar with the mistakes people make, and you start to be able to guess what they've done wrong despite a complete lack of evidence.

Whether or not a response is a valid "answer" is subjective. Very often you don't have enough information to give a conclusive answer, you can only give a tentative or provisional answer. When does an answer become so tentative that it should be a comment asking for more information? That's entirely subjective.

8
  • 1
    Probably a wild guess based on "gut feeling". Your gut becomes smarter than your brain over time ....
    – rene
    Oct 9, 2021 at 8:24
  • I would call that an "educated guess", and that there's a big difference in how seriously we take a guess from someone with 142k rep vs. someone with 27 rep who isn't even allowed to comment ;-) Oct 9, 2021 at 13:13
  • @NotTheDr01ds I've seen and flagged "Not an Answer"-posts made by high reputation users. They're usually link-only to some guide. I think we should not make the mistake to think that reputation means anything other than a user has posted here successfully before. Low reputation doesn't mean someone isn't a good developer or a good guesser. It just means their account either wasn't used much or it's new.
    – Scratte
    Oct 9, 2021 at 13:40
  • @Scratte No, no - That's not my point. Obviously yes, a link-only answer by a high-rep user isn't an "answer", but a comment (and yes, even some high-rep users are guilty of this from time-to-time). However, I hope we can agree that an "educated guess" is far different than a "wild guess". And someone with 142k rep has obviously been doing this for a while ... Oct 9, 2021 at 13:52
  • @NotTheDr01ds And what I'm trying to tell you is that you cannot make any correlation between reputation points and those two types of guesses.
    – Scratte
    Oct 9, 2021 at 13:54
  • @Scratte Are you sure you believe that? It seems obvious to me that there is a clear statistical correlation in how often a user with high rep will provide a bad guess vs. a new user. The Stack review process (First Posts) recognizes this and puts more emphasis on reviewing new user's because they are much more likely to provide an answer that has "issues" (whether formatting, .quality, correctness, link-only, spam, etc.). Yes, it's entirely possible for either category of user to make a mistake, but it happens far (far) more often for new users. Oct 9, 2021 at 14:11
  • @NotTheDr01ds That will provide statistics on which posts are more likely to get flagged and/or deleted, but I hope you also recognize that it doesn't matter how many 6's you already got, the probably it still just 1/6 for the next roll of the die. Applying this to whether or not a post is BS or valid is a very dangerous path. I've seen proper Answers get deleted in the Low Quality Posts queue. Answers that would have never gotten deleted, if they had been posted by high reputation users. Please don't go down that path..
    – Scratte
    Oct 9, 2021 at 14:17
  • @Scratte I absolutely agree with that. Trust me, I don't automatically assume every new user answer has issues just because they are more likely to have issues. Nor that every answer from a high-rep user is right either. But, for better or worse, I do take high reputation into account in how much "scrutiny" to give it. By definition (Stack's, as well as Oxford's) it means that the person has earned trust in the community with their past actions. If someone with high reputation (like you) posts something that I disagree with, I question whether I personally may be missing something :-). Oct 9, 2021 at 14:47

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .