17

I got suspended again for making rude comments on terrible questions and answers. In the mod message provided, I was given examples of the problematic comments. 4 of the 5 given, I accept that they're hostile/snarky/whatever. The fifth, however, I have serious issues with being considered any of those:

As @ says, why do you want to do this? What benefit do you think it will give you? If you're making things async just because "it's the new way", then you are not thinking, you are cargo-culting. And you should never do that.

The relevant question (may require C# knowledge).

I grant the delivery could be somewhat less terse, but I'm interested to know what Meta thinks.

NOTE that I am not attempting to challenge my suspension.

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  • 109
    You should have left out everything after the question mark. Your opinion about "thinking/cargo-culting" does not help in any way to improve a question. If you want to express that kind of thing, I believe it's important to learn to do it in a way that's not demeaning or condescending.
    – yivi
    Sep 2, 2021 at 6:47
  • 42
    Also, considering this is the best of the five comments, personally I would let it go.
    – yivi
    Sep 2, 2021 at 6:51
  • 45
    "suspended again": if you were suspended previously, perhaps the mods take a harsher view of borderline cases. Perhaps they are right to do so.
    – Raedwald
    Sep 2, 2021 at 6:56
  • 52
    "you are not thinking" seems unnecessary.
    – khelwood
    Sep 2, 2021 at 7:19
  • 20
    How about this? : As @Damien_The_Unbeliever says, why do you want to do this? What benefit do you think it will give you? Making things async seems to be "the new way", but I don't think you should use it unless you need it.
    – Scratte
    Sep 2, 2021 at 7:26
  • 36
    Regardless if this ban was called for or not, after the "welcome wagon" fiasco there is still a big problem with the imbalance between rude questions and rude comments replying to those. If someone posts a question "Gimme the code to this homework dump, hurry up I need to hand this in" and you flag that question as rude, the flag gets rejected. But if someone would reply with a comment "No, do your own bloody homework you lazy bastard" then they would likely risk a ban. But not the incredibly rude homework dumper.
    – Lundin
    Sep 2, 2021 at 8:18
  • 26
    There's a big difference between the tone "Give me the code for my homework" and "Do you own bloody homework, lazy", @Lundin . If the latter had just been something like "You need to do your homework, not us" the latter would not be rude.
    – Thom A
    Sep 2, 2021 at 8:32
  • 22
    The question isn't "rude", they are just oblivious to the rules of Stack Overflow and the social norm of that your homework is your homework (not someone else's). The person themselves might be considered rude for not reading the rules of the site before they posted, but that doesn't make the post itself rude.
    – Thom A
    Sep 2, 2021 at 8:36
  • 19
    @Larnu Asking unpaid volunteers to do your homework for you is incredible rude. The equivalent outside the Internet would be to show up at some after school activity where volunteers help students out free of charge, then just hand them your homework, tell them to do it for you and then leave. In what country on earth is that not considered rude?
    – Lundin
    Sep 2, 2021 at 8:38
  • 15
    Because they are not "rude". They may be off-topic. Or low quality. Conflating those things does no one any favours.
    – yivi
    Sep 2, 2021 at 8:38
  • 18
    Even if a question is rude, that is no excuse to respond in a rude way. Sep 2, 2021 at 8:42
  • 24
    We agree, it's getting silly. Posting an off-topic or low-quality question is simply not rude. It's not good, we have tools to deal with that. But it's not rude. It's not insulting or demeaning towards anyone. It's just an error borne out of ignorance of the rules, lack of resources, frustration, etc. Trying to lump it on the same box as rude and toxic behaviour serves no purpose.
    – yivi
    Sep 2, 2021 at 8:48
  • 24
    No, @Ian, being ignorant is not insulting. We are ALL ignorant of many different things. Knowing the rules and wilfully disregarding them, that's another matter altogether. And again, we have tools for that. Comments are not the tools for that.
    – yivi
    Sep 2, 2021 at 8:56
  • 14
    @oisinvg I usually ask because I have years of experience and have a very strong suspicion that there is a better way to get what they need. Often that's an XY problem or they're asking how to get from A to B when they really want to know how to get directly to C.
    – DavidG
    Sep 2, 2021 at 15:22
  • 17
    "it feels good to roast someone who is after a free lunch".. that is not constructive. I imagine this is why they had to do the welcoming thing.
    – Scratte
    Sep 3, 2021 at 7:07

12 Answers 12

32

The content of the comment you made is not "not nice" per se in the sense that cargo-culting is a well-known term for blindly applying patterns/techniques or just simply writing code without understanding what they do, so, yes, by "not thinking".

However, this is a case where context matters.

First, to get the objective part out of the way, it was most certainly flagged as "unfriendly or unkind", so it is very likely that at least somebody perceived the comment as such, and a mod agreed with the assessment. The perception problem is outlined in the current Code of Conduct under the "Unacceptable Behavior" section (discussion of merits of the CoC itself aside):

No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language.

Even if you don’t intend it, this can have a negative impact on others.

Second - and this is the subjective part - yes, the comment, unfortunately, does come off as "not nice" (although I am sure you didn't mean it to come off this way). The part about the cargo-culting as currently worded does not serve any educational purpose and thus comes off as a snarky remark - a link to the definition of the term would certainly help it to look better.

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  • 26
    "The part about the cargo-culting as currently worded does not serve any educational purpose and thus comes off as a snarky remark" - Subjective indeed, I'm going to have to disagree with that. It's a reminder to the author that they should do things because they have a good reason to, "it's the new way" (as quoted) is an abysmal reason to do anything. If they had said "required for work" , or "learning experience", or "need to be able to perform other tasks in parallel" or any other meaningful reason I'd be more inclined to agree. Although... Full context missing Sep 2, 2021 at 9:10
  • 5
    @Nick we don't differ in assessment of the situation, actually - my point is that the comment does come off as condescending and is problematic under the current CoC (whatever we feel about it, unfortunately, does not matter much). The only issue I see with it is the presentation and, subsequently perception - the point was that accompanied with a link to the definition, the last part of the comment would likely be perceived in a different light. Sep 2, 2021 at 9:46
  • 3
    Subjectivity is always going to be a problem with any platform that tries to determine intent from written words, people just need to stop being so sensitive. Personally, I think Ian's comment was sage advice and hopefully the OP takes it on board and learns from it.
    – user692942
    Sep 2, 2021 at 11:52
  • 7
    If our standard for R/A is as high as "somebody can perceive it as such", then this whole getting along on the internet thing is never going to work. Sep 2, 2021 at 16:38
  • 16
    Honestly, the "not thinking" part seems more rude to me. Not necessarily untrue perhaps, but not the most constructive way to word a potentially otherwise-useful criticism.
    – reirab
    Sep 2, 2021 at 18:36
  • @reirab that is your opinion and you are entirely welcome to it. However, it’s also not the same as saying someone is "stupid" or "thick", so where do you draw the line?
    – user692942
    Sep 3, 2021 at 6:38
  • 11
    Using the phrase "cargo culting" is a clear way to point out the trap someone might be falling into. I didn't see that part as rude at all. (I can kind of see where you're coming from now that you point it out, but I still disagree with this assessment.) It's the part driving home that point with "you are not thinking" that steps a bit across the line in my reading, creating an overall negative tone. (Especially that "you are not thinking" can jump out at the reader, leaving its context behind and sounding ruder than (what I think) the intended reading was.) Sep 3, 2021 at 7:59
  • 3
    (Although perhaps other people see the term "cargo culting" differently, as another answer points out. Still, I think it's more the overall tone, and it would be fully possible to use that phrase in a non-rude comment to point out a trap someone might be falling into without making them sound dumb for not having recognized that fact.) Sep 3, 2021 at 8:05
  • 6
    I'm downvoting, because it is illegitimate to criminalize comments based on the subjective perception of people who complain about them rather than on provable intent or on common / authoritatve interpretations of the comments.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 3, 2021 at 18:55
  • 3
    "I am sure you didn't mean it to come off this way." I wouldn't go quite that far. They didn't think what they said would be perceived as rude by others, sure, but I'm unconvinced that this problem is "I don't understand how this English phrase sounds to others" and not something more fundamental like "I don't understand why people respond poorly when I talk down to them or assume incompetence, perhaps because it feels right to me when I do it, and I have a hard time envisioning the other person as competent and therefore cannot imagine myself on the receiving end of what I say". Sep 4, 2021 at 2:31
49

Comments involving the word "you" are not nice when part of an ad hominem

Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, from Wikipedia: Ad Hominem

Figure Credit: Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, from Wikipedia: Ad Hominem


The presence of words like "you/your" in technical criticism make it appear similar to "ad hominem" criticism. People see the "you" part -- which suggests blame or shame or some such thing -- and not the technical part.

Compare.

Before:

why do you want to do this? What benefit do you think it will give you? If you're making things async just because "it's the new way", then you are not thinking, you are cargo-culting. And you should never do that.

After depersonalizing:

why do this? What is the benefit? Changing the code on lines NNN-NNN to async won't fix the problem. Code shouldn't be made async simply because it is a fad/trend.

Which criticism sounds more technical and less rude?

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  • 6
    Is it a rhetorical question (not a rhetorical question)? Sep 2, 2021 at 23:07
  • @PeterMortensen Probably. The depersonalized remark should probably cite specific code.
    – Paul
    Sep 2, 2021 at 23:11
  • 3
    The last one still accuses the OP of not thinking, just in different words. Why leave in the assumption that they're just following a trend?
    – BSMP
    Sep 3, 2021 at 7:25
  • 1
    @BSMP I read the latter text as expressing an opinion about changing code. Opinions vary, we all have some. But the earlier text literally states "you are not thinking".
    – Paul
    Sep 3, 2021 at 7:59
  • 4
    Also, I am not trying to show how to resolve every disagreement or ill feeling in that exchange -- but simply trying to tone down the ad hominem a bit. One way is to scan for "you" and replace it with something non-personal.
    – Paul
    Sep 3, 2021 at 8:02
  • 2
    This. Criticize the behavior, not the individual.
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 3, 2021 at 8:07
  • 2
    So far, criticizing OP's behavior can be summarized as "responding to tone". Which is not a whole lot higher up the pyramid compared to OP's behavior. I say we all still have a lot to learn. Sep 3, 2021 at 8:19
  • 1
    @RuudHelderman It is somewhere between hand-wringing over tone and refuting the OP's claim that his version is not hostile or snarky. Assuming the possibility of good faith, demonstrating how to make it less hostile/snarky is both tone and refutation. This may imply alterations to Graham's pyramid where the topology is distorted into something from an HP Lovecraft story.
    – Paul
    Sep 3, 2021 at 8:34
  • @Paul I was of course creating my own fallacy; a diversion by questioning site policies rather than the comment. A false contradiction. But isn't it fun to see how both the policy and the policy's target are sitting so close to the bottom of the same pyramid? Sep 3, 2021 at 9:19
  • TBH the "you" instances of the first two questions are fine even in the first version, but especially fine to remain in the second version; no need to remove them there.
    – TylerH
    Sep 3, 2021 at 16:06
  • 4
    On one hand side, I find this very interesting, on the other hand side, this is a level of comprehension of the nuances of the English language, that I have a hard time getting in a row with other English requirements of this site. I suggested warning people that had no question mark in their question that they need to ask a focussed question and this suggestion was met with "how dare you assume that level of proficiency from the poor programmers around the world". So on one hand side we don't want quality, because... of language requirements, but we feel happy to ban people for nuances.
    – nvoigt
    Sep 3, 2021 at 17:36
  • Some candidates during mod elections take an undue amount of the bottom 2 without any real substance.
    – bad_coder
    Sep 3, 2021 at 19:05
  • OP's comment was not an ad hominem, it was ad cogitationis processum, and that's not the same thing.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 3, 2021 at 20:28
24

I don't find your comment particularly egregious. If you got suspended over it, it most likely means that the moderator who suspended you believes that it's part of an ongoing pattern of "marginal" comments.

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  • 12
    I wasn't suspended over that comment - as noted, there were 4 other example comments that were definitely worse than "marginal", and I simply feel that this comment was very different in tone and intention.
    – Ian Kemp
    Sep 2, 2021 at 13:30
  • 6
    'part of an ongoing pattern of "marginal" comments.' - Definitely this, if you're on thin ice already then extra caution should be used
    – Sam
    Sep 2, 2021 at 22:03
16

While personally I would not take offense in your using "you" in a "you shouldn't" scenario, after reading the question in question (you linked it in your post, cheers for that!):

WPF Guy plainly tells in his question that he is trying to understand the async method, working on a simple code example. In such a situation one should not counter-ask "why use async methodology at all?" There are many reasons to do so, and they are not disclosed in a how-to-at-all question.

1
  • 1
    This. Making an unfounded assumption about the OP's motivation for asking the question at all is the core problem. The tone and possible rudeness are certainly worthy of discussion (and kudos to the OP here for inviting that), but they are not the primary problem with the comment.
    – skomisa
    Sep 3, 2021 at 19:41
8

As @Paul mentions, avoiding the usage of "you" in a message helps the recipient perceive it in a neutral or positive manner.

Original:

As @ says, why do you want to do this? What benefit do you think it will give you? If you're making things async just because "it's the new way", then you are not thinking, you are cargo-culting. And you should never do that.

Alternative 1:

Is there a benefit to making things asynchronous? It might be a simpler approach to avoid async here since the task isn't I/O bound.

Alternative 2:

Is there a benefit to making it async?

Notice that "is there a benefit to..." is a bit less confrontational phrasing than "why do ...". This is because the former language is often used in a learning environment (e.g. "Is there a benefit to rearranging the expression? Does it have to do with numerical stability?"), whereas the latter may appear in more emotive contexts (e.g. "Why would anyone do that?! That sounds insane!").

1
  • 3
    These alternatives also avoid making assumptions about what the asker was thinking.
    – BSMP
    Sep 4, 2021 at 15:03
7

You (the OP) are correct, twice:

  • Yes, the phraseology of the comment can be taken as rude or personal according to the standards and rules of the community and moderators, especially when it's part of a pattern.

  • Yes, those standards and rules can be surprising and may even feel arguably incorrect, and can feel unfair.

It would greatly assist us as commenters and as volunteer defenders of the quality of SO, in my opinion, if the person who makes a comment were notified if that comment is flagged. As far as I know, there is no such mechanism. If there were, we could learn what the "temperature" of the community is, and avoid falling into the suspension trap.

But whether the standards and rules are themselves right or wrong, and how SO works in general, doesn't matter for practical purposes. These are the rules and they can be enforced by suspension, and you won't know that you're accumulating a record of red flags until the hammer falls. What you could argue is of no account, because no one is going to ask you for your argument. If enough red flags are raised, consequences can follow. That's just the way it is.

The solution is simple: Don't Do That. There are two tips I've found useful:

  • Silence is golden. Remember, no one is standing behind you with a weapon, forcing you to write a comment in a certain way, or even to write a comment at all. The simplest approach is to think the comment, or write the comment and then cancel it (or delete it if you've posted it), and walk away, remaining silent. Indeed, you are free to walk away (temporarily or permanently) from Stack Overflow itself.

  • Take your time. There is an implicit "race" to give an answer, but there are no comment races. Taking a few extra minutes, maybe many extra minutes, to hone your commment, is no trouble in the grand scheme of things. It's easy to create an edited version of your comment that doesn't risk falling afoul of the rules, so just do that.

Finally, don't worry, be happy. The moderators have decided that you need to take a time out. You know what? They could be right! After a few days without being able to contribute to Stack Overflow, you just might find your life feels better. If so, try to keep that feeling going when you return. You have been given the gift of space. It is yours if you can keep it.

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  • 3
    On a tangential note, there is an old and somewhat controversial request (with reception averaging as "it's mostly a good idea") for notifying users when their comments are deleted (for being R/A in particular) Sep 4, 2021 at 14:05
  • 2
    Moderators will usually send an official warning the first-time, so it is not like it comes completely unexpected. It may happen that one had already received a warning a fairly long time ago, which could then influence the decision of placing a suspension, but my impression is that straight up suspensions are reserved for people making a long, rapid stream of abusive commentary, or throwing a blatantly abusive and bigoted comment, which is far from the case here.
    – E_net4
    Sep 4, 2021 at 14:06
  • 1
    Other than that, I agree that choosing not to comment, or taking extra care when doing so, is generally a good practice. And it's also true that a good deal of us were better off contributing to other initiatives every once in a while.
    – E_net4
    Sep 4, 2021 at 14:07
  • @OlegValter I think that what I think is that there should be a notification to commenter any time a comment is red flagged, whether the flag is agreed to by a moderator or not.
    – matt
    Sep 4, 2021 at 14:30
  • @matt Wouldn't notifying commenters after flagged conversational/noise comments such as "+1 This should be the accepted answer!!!" be fixing a problem that doesn't really exist? It's also worth noting that some comments are instantly removed when flagged, without the mods even being aware. I think my example above would fall in that category. I suppose the code that automatically removes flagged noise comments could also notify the commenter, but the matter seems so trivial.
    – skomisa
    Sep 4, 2021 at 17:18
  • @matt oh, I was just linking to the page with a request, not casting any opinion on the matter Sep 4, 2021 at 17:20
  • 2
    @skomisa I should have said "red flagged as rude". But maybe all of them, if I'm to be consistent. What I'm plumping for here is learning. If a comment says "Thank you" and is removed automatically for being flagged "no longer needed", the poster of the comment could learn something if told that this happened. If not, then how does the exercise "teach" the poster of the comment to be a better poster of comments?
    – matt
    Sep 4, 2021 at 17:28
  • @matt Point taken. I guess I'm challenging whether the developer effort to implement this is worthwhile, rather than your proposal per se. An alternative approach offering a partial solution might be to block certain trigger phrases such as "Thank you", "Accepted answer" and swearing from even being posted. If the existing flagging software can automatically delete such comments, why not automatically block them from being posted at all? I know little about the current state of natural language processing but I'd think it is possible to better vet comments when they are created.
    – skomisa
    Sep 4, 2021 at 18:00
  • @skomisa It would be great too if you could submit a comment and immediately be warned, by means of artificial intelligence, that this is the kind of thing that might arouse the biases of the Ministry For Rudeness.
    – matt
    Sep 4, 2021 at 18:15
  • @matt oh, no, no, no, don't allow SE to implement something like that - they will use a regular expression for that, and we will end up with the system similar to how "thank you"/"accepted" comments are determined for immediate deletion :) Sep 4, 2021 at 19:49
  • @OlegValter Would you like to list some of the phrases that will be used in this regular expression? :))))
    – matt
    Sep 4, 2021 at 23:09
  • @matt listing that will probably get me banned outright :) Sep 4, 2021 at 23:11
4

I'm not a moderator on SO, so I can't speak to why a moderator considered this comment "not nice." But it may be worth looking at the term "cargo cult," which has come to be considered (at least by some) as reductive, dismissive, or even racist, all of which a reader could consider to be "not nice."

NOTE: I am NOT implying that you intended to make any racist or otherwise offensive remarks.

Wikipedia is more eloquent than I am here, so I'll quote them (emphasis mine):

The term cargo cult as an idiom originally referred to aboriginal religions that grew up in the South Pacific after World War II. The practices of these groups centered on building elaborate mock-ups of airplanes and military landing strips in the hope of summoning the god-like beings who arrived in airplanes that had brought marvelous cargo during the war. In recent decades, anthropology has distanced itself from the term “cargo cult,” which is now seen as having been reductively applied to a lot of complicated and disparate social and religious movements that arose from the stress and trauma of colonialism, and sought to attain much more varied and amorphous goals—things like self-determination—than material cargo.

Again, whether this played into your specific situation, I haven't the faintest idea. But when writing in a public, moderated forum, it's worth considering how other readers (including, but not limited to, site moderators) can bring different contexts to their reading, which sometimes greatly changes the meaning from what you originally intended to say.

Note: I'm not trying to start a thread about racism, or free speech, or wokeness, etc... and I hope that's not what people do below this post... I read the Git mail list thread about renaming the default branch from "master," which got a bit ugly and I don't want to see anything like that form in the comments... and if it does, I'll probably delete the answer.

4
  • 7
    I can't say that this whether this is right, but honestly I'm literally afraid that it is. Having to keep up with anthropology – and anything comparably niche – to figure out what is offensive seems... well, I have no idea how to do that in practice. Sep 3, 2021 at 9:16
  • 3
    Yeah, I'm with @MisterMiyagi here. Cargo cult always has meant to me as the expression "monkey see, monkey do", except that it's more entrenched part of the hive mentality rather than an individual behavior.
    – Braiam
    Sep 3, 2021 at 13:29
  • 6
    @MisterMiyagi Doing that in practice is what we are doing right now: Living, interacting, learning. A lot of terms become offensive over time and society adapts. Nobody is ripping your head off if you use a mildly offensive term by accident. Now we know about this one term and it's our choice what we do with that information.
    – A Person
    Sep 3, 2021 at 17:13
  • 1
    @APerson It didn't "become offensive." It was coined as a term to deride a certain kind of unthinking tribal behavior that results in bad practices spreading despite the fact they typically result in low quality products. And that is a behavior that should be derided. If deriding harmful behavior can be silenced by the ridiculous notion of associating it with racism, then we're screwed.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 6, 2021 at 8:59
4

I think the overall tone of the comment does come across as rude, and the same point could certainly have been made with less "personal", more technical language that can't be read as including insults.

The phrase "you are not thinking" to drive home your point steps a bit across the line in my reading, creating an overall negative tone. Especially since "you are not thinking" can jump out at the reader, leaving its context behind and sounding ruder than (what I think) the intended reading was. (I think you mean "not thinking carefully about why you're doing this", rather than "you are braindead".)

Using the phrase "cargo culting" seems to me a clear way to point out the trap someone might be falling into. I didn't see that part as rude at all. I can kind of see where Oleg is coming from in assessing that part as rude, but I disagree. That phrase isn't the problem, to my reading at least, since I understand what the phrase implies in a programming context, and anyone on the internet can search to find out what it means.

(Although perhaps other people see the term "cargo culting" differently, with problematic racial connotations, as another answer points out. Still, I think it's more the overall tone, and it would be fully possible to use that phrase in a non-rude comment to point out a trap someone might be falling into without making them sound dumb for not having recognized that fact.)

1
  • (I had posted some of this thought in a comment earlier, but I didn't see another answer to the overall meta question that took this approach.) Sep 5, 2021 at 2:39
-6

Doesn't matter. The company's concept of "niceness" is superficial and depends on what identity groups you align with. Real niceness isn't actually the goal. Ideological conformance is. Anything that can be used to brand you as "oppressive" will be used to demonize and punish you. And yes, telling people that they're not applying their mental faculties to the fullest is considered "oppressive."

And even if actual niceness was the goal, the fact is that as described by the company, it's a form of extremism that's supplanting the core mission: improve the knowledge of developers by providing a helpful knowledge base.

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  • 2
    Can you edit the post to include some references.
    – bad_coder
    Sep 4, 2021 at 13:54
  • 5
    I don't think this is true any more (the first paragraph). Some higher-up people were influenced (probably because they were played by a third party), but it has subsided. Sep 4, 2021 at 14:20
  • 2
    Regardless of whether it's "oppressive", telling people that "they're not applying their mental faculties to the fullest" is counterproductive. It achieves absolutely nothing.
    – skomisa
    Sep 4, 2021 at 17:26
  • @PeterMortensen Sarah Chipps was not a "third party." She was hired specifically for these values that she brought to the table. And a number of employees who stood with some level of opposition to these values were fired. I don't see any evidence that they've come back or that the social injustice tone of the site has changed. Maybe grown more quiet since the open parading of the abuses it caused led to such an uproar, but not changed. The people its advocates sought to remove are already gone; I see no way that a different set of values could have taken hold.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 4, 2021 at 19:16
  • 1
    @skomisa It achieves a statement of the truth when a person is failing to apply correct logic and reasoning. The truth always has value to those who will give it due consideration.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 4, 2021 at 19:17
  • 3
    @jpmc26 There is a difference between telling the truth and being "snappish". The truth is the fact, whilst questioning someone's ability to think just because they're new and neither have your knowledge nor your experience can be counter productive. I had a teacher who, upon being told when she was young that she sucked at maths by her teacher, believed him and thought that she couldn't do maths. The same happened to many of my friends when they were being "educated" by their parents, telling them they are failures. They were never explained in what way they are "failures" (the actual facts).
    – Clockwork
    Sep 5, 2021 at 19:32
  • 1
    @jpmc26 I mean, if you were to teach me Python (which I barely know anything about) and you told me that I don't have the slightlest clue what I'm doing, I would believe you. But then, whether or not it's helpful depends on whether or not you would tell me what I did wrong.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 5, 2021 at 19:34
  • 1
    @Clockwork The statements as presented do not question anyone's ability. They merely state the person is not using it, which actually would typically imply they have the ability. You're the one reading a derogatory remark into it. So maybe you're the one who's inclined to think badly of people.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 5, 2021 at 19:49
  • 1
    @jpmc26 I am merely suggesting that spoken language isn't absolute and anyone can have their own interpretation; as I pointed out in another comment on another post, whether or not it's taken personally is influenced by how the person's day went. For what it's worth, since I'm beginning to "know" the asker as a member, coming from them, I wouldn't have taken it badly if I were on the receiving end.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 5, 2021 at 19:55
  • 1
    @Clockwork And that variability is one reason why this extremism is a horrible idea.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 5, 2021 at 19:56
  • @jpmc26 How so? Serious question; I'm not participating a lot on Stack Overflow, so I might be lacking on some information (beside the fact that there's a flow of newcomers who basically use the Code of Conducts to protect themselves against quality moderation).
    – Clockwork
    Sep 5, 2021 at 19:59
  • 1
    @Clockwork Apply that mentality to this answer. We'll all have lost a useful teaching tool if it goes.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 5, 2021 at 20:07
  • 2
    @jpmc26 Ah, you mean historical "joke answers". Well, I read a meta-post mentioning that it's not really helpful as a reply to newcomers who don't know anything yet. Although for those who have been on the field, it's a nice reminder and a mood reliever.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 5, 2021 at 20:08
  • 2
    @Clockwork No. I mean that the claims of the "welcoming" extremists are false, and this is one simple example why. Being "nice" is not always the most effective way to address a problem. Sometimes you need to be blunt and tackle a bad practice or mentality head on. Sometimes you even need to make a fool of someone to keep others from going down the same bad path.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 5, 2021 at 20:10
  • 3
    @jpmc26 Re. "Sometimes you even need to make a fool of someone to keep others from going down the same bad path.", that's a terrible mindset for anyone to have who wants to usefully contribute to Stack Overflow, and is against the CoC. If you sincerely think that way I don't understand why you want to be here at all.
    – skomisa
    Sep 6, 2021 at 0:29
-7

then you are not thinking

It reminds me of when I argued with my brother, when he still didn't understand something I repeated and explained in different ways.

Usually, I'd argue that he wasn't listening, he was just hearing. After which he would complain that he really hated when I said that, because I was implying his intent when I wasn't him, and he knew himself better than I did.

Implicitly, I think your comment comes across as: "This is common knowledge, everyone knows it, including you, and you're still being stubborn, which proves you are not being honest".

Correct me if I'm wrong; I'm trying to read between the lines.

The thing here is to remember that if someone is asking something that sounds naive or even obvious to you, they probably don't know that it is because they don't have your knowledge. Maybe you could teach them a thing or two if they look like they're ready to listen.

If you're still convinced that it's trolling on some extent, you should downvote and carry on before getting carried away in the comment section.

11
  • To give you an example of the "not having your knowledge", I never knew of the place Stack Overflow used to be, until your very thorough Meta reply about the summer of love and such. And it really helped me better understand your point of view.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 2, 2021 at 12:49
  • 14
    "This is common knowledge, everyone know it, including you, and you're still being stubborn, which proves you are not being honest" -- Yeah, I think you're mis-reading the comment. Sep 2, 2021 at 12:50
  • @RobertHarvey Thanks, I guess I've tried too hard there. Still, if I did, maybe someone else could have too.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 2, 2021 at 12:53
  • 1
    "I think your comment is saying" Do you mean that is what Ian Kemp meant to say, or what the recipient read it to say? Sep 2, 2021 at 13:23
  • 1
    @MisterMiyagi ... Good question. Maybe I thought a bit of both, though more of the latter than the former I think.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 2, 2021 at 13:36
  • 11
    The tone of my comment was frustrated because programming is founded on logic and thinking, and doing things "just because" is the antithesis thereof. (Many new users and low-quality questions fall into this bucket.) And while it is perhaps unfair to expect new users to understand programming-specific terms like "cargo-culting", this is a programming-specific site... how low are we going to drop the bar? Is asking people to present syntactically-valid programs "unfair"? There is a very slippery slope here (both ways, because gatekeeping).
    – Ian Kemp
    Sep 2, 2021 at 13:37
  • 3
    @IanKemp Nah, I was only commenting on the tone of the comment. If a post came across to me as lacking too much, I would downvote it. As to whether or not to comment, it depends if the person looks like they're willing to learn or not. If not (like many of the new users as you point out), I don't bother arguing.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 2, 2021 at 13:47
  • 3
    Tone of the written word, yeah if you attempt to determine that, you are guaranteed to guess what the tone of a comment was incorrectly. Don’t try to determine tone of the written word. This is the reason I find it exhaust that putting something in bold could be perceived as being unwelcoming or rude. Sep 2, 2021 at 23:52
  • @SecurityHound Good point, I never thought of that. You know, I was almost tempted to add bolds in this post, and then I realised it might look condescending (if it's my own sentence) or mocking (if it's a quote).
    – Clockwork
    Sep 3, 2021 at 6:13
  • @Clockwork - I am obviously clueless with regards to how a bold statement can be perceived as rude, I always figured a bold statement was simply something that was important, and should stand out. If I were using !‘s all over my sentences that might be different. Thus why I try just saying what I mean and try to remind users, what I said has a specific meaning, and you shouldn’t try to find a deeper meaning. Sep 3, 2021 at 6:31
  • 2
    @SecurityHound Generally speaking, I would take a bold statement the way way you do. The only exceptions are: if it was an argument with someone who suddenly starts writing with bold or capital letters, or both. That would sound like they're screaming. Otherwise, it can depend on whether or not the person in question is known to be snarky (can't make that assumption with someone you barely started talking with).
    – Clockwork
    Sep 3, 2021 at 6:34
-15

When I first joined Stack Overflow more than a decade ago it was a brutal place. Now it's closer to a nanny state. The goal (of the site, as the site owners see it) is to be informative and concise. No opinions, no duplicate questions - the central "authority" on technical Q&A.

While I may like to say I think they've overdone it - that edits are rampant and the core substance suffers - that would be an opinion (and thus not allowed). This is not me stating my opinion; this is simply me stating the fact that I could not give my opinion and be within guidelines set by the site.

So in short, be kind. Stick to the facts on the subject. Refer others to complementary postings when your answer leaves more to be desired. And DBAA.

Here's a good source on the material.

14
  • 7
    There is no ban on voicing an opinion, especially not on meta. If voicing an opinion includes being rude or otherwise violating the rules, the problem isn't in voicing the opinion – the problem is being rude. Sep 3, 2021 at 8:49
  • 2
    Maybe not in meta, and maybe not in comments, but certainly on questions and answers (especially on questions, though thankfully sometimes they leave it up long enough to gather decent responses). I have no issue with punitive action for violating ToS, but I have, in many cases, seen good questions closed and good answers edited. I gave up caring long ago and use this site for the resource instead of the community. Sep 3, 2021 at 11:34
  • 10
    "This is not me stating my opinion, this is simply me stating the fact that I could not give my opinion and be within guidelines set by the site." That's incorrect. While it's true posts on the main site are supposed to be based on facts, posts here on Meta are perfectly allowed to be opinion-based. See What is "meta"? How does it work? Sep 3, 2021 at 13:09
  • 3
    be kind. Stick to the facts on the subject - those contradict each other, I'm afraid. The cancel culture has shifted the point of origin such that not praising someone enough is already seen as an insult. Ten years ago Stack Overflow was honestly about the quality of content and nothing else, and while no one tried to offend anyone purposely, no one's "feelings" were put in front of the quality of the content. It is the opposite these days, and atrocious questions get upvoted regularly because they are from new users who must be dealt with kindly.
    – GSerg
    Sep 4, 2021 at 7:30
  • @GSerg I heard the old Stack Overflow was a nice little community where everyone was more or less getting along very well. So there was no problem about not being nice since it was a little self-sustained community. And then the bad questions came pouring.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 4, 2021 at 8:57
  • @GSerg How are the two things related? Yes, I do see content of questionable quality being upvoted. No, I don't see factual and neutral curation/commentary being canceled or called out as insulting. Sep 4, 2021 at 10:03
  • @MisterMiyagi I'm not saying cancelling is happening here, I'm saying it has shifted the baseline. I believe the OP's comment in question is factual and neither insulting nor "not nice", much less invoking cultural flashbacks to colonialism, and yet here we are discussing it. I would also not agree with your earlier comment about voicing our opinions freely. I have had critical comments not passing pre-moderation on the SO blog, seen highly upvoted critical comments deleted "to avoid clutter", and there is an official mod tool to manually remove a hot topic from the Hot Meta Posts panel.
    – GSerg
    Sep 4, 2021 at 11:32
  • 2
    @GSerg Look, I have no intention of going down the rabbit hole lined with fighting words. I have no intention discussing about some decisions made on some comments on some blog. I am trying to understand how there's a contradiction between being kind, sticking to the facts, and by extension caring about the content because I am experiencing none of that in my daily use of SO. Sep 4, 2021 at 11:56
  • 1
    A nanny state is a very brutal place. Except that the brutality is carried out by the state, and usually behind closed doors. But +1 for what I presume you may have said had our mouths not been muzzled.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 4, 2021 at 14:27
  • 3
    @MisterMiya Because even when you are kind and sticking to the facts, someone will find your constructive criticism offensive (warning: YouTube link). Previously this was viewed as an error on the receiving side, but under the welcoming paradigm the blame is on the speaker. I will be honest in that I cannot recall this happening to me, but I have seen "hey, no need to be rude" being thrown around in response to something that was correct and did not seem remotely rude to me, and each time it made me feel that the only safe way is to not criticize anything.
    – GSerg
    Sep 4, 2021 at 18:25
  • 1
    @MisterMiyagi GSerg is right. I have seen coworkers take personal offense at having their posts edited for grammar or mechanics.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 6, 2021 at 5:15
  • How exactly do Rowan Atkinson and someone's coworkers relate to what one can and cannot (or perhaps should/should not) do on SO? Sep 6, 2021 at 5:33
  • @MisterMiyagi You said, "...the problem is being rude." We're addressing the issue of what's considered rude. The entire premise of the "welcoming" push is that SO's user base is rude, that the outside perception of SO has merit. GSerg is pointing out how that perception is based on a flawed interpretation, and is furthermore pointing out that chasing the goal of eliminating all speech that can be considered "unkind" is ultimately detrimental. And I shouldn't need to explain any of this if you were giving what we're saying any serious thought.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 6, 2021 at 20:47
  • "And I shouldn't need to explain any of this if you were giving what we're saying any serious thought." Seriously now? I don't think citing Mr. Bean is needed if that is what people expect to be part of a normal conversation. Sep 7, 2021 at 4:59
-16

Is this comment really "not nice"?

It is sufficiently nice for it not to count among messages which might merit calling you out somehow.

If we look at the CoC definition which Oleg quoted:

No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language.

Your language is still friendly, despite being critical. If you had only said "What's up with your question, [Username]? It shows you're just not thinking." - that would have been unfriendly. There is no subtle put-down; and the criticism doesn't qualify as a put-down - although it's not far from a mild one.


PS - The CoC is atrocious, and a travesty-of-justice, in terms of its procedures, especially coupled with the vague definitions of violations. So, please don't interpret my quoting of it as an endorsement of its application in general.

20
  • 5
    I want to upvote this but I can't. I was offended on first read of that comment, and I'm hard to offend.
    – Joshua
    Sep 3, 2021 at 0:12
  • 3
    @Joshua How can you be offended by something that's not even directed at you?
    – Dan Mašek
    Sep 3, 2021 at 0:39
  • @DanMaĆĄek It happened to be before. Usually, it's because I could identify myself because of past bad experience. Not saying that it was the case for Joshua though. I'm just giving an example of how it can happen.
    – Clockwork
    Sep 3, 2021 at 6:53
  • 1
    Calling the comment "sufficiently nice" seems ... wrong. Maybe "isn't quite offensive enough to warrant a suspension"? Sep 3, 2021 at 7:26
  • 2
    @Peter-ReinstateMonica: No. It's not really nice, but it's nice enough to just pass. It could be nicer, granted; but given that the site has an enforceable niceness requirement - the definition of nice must necessarily be a wide one.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 3, 2021 at 7:37
  • 11
    I disagree. "You are not thinking" is definitely not friendly. Sep 3, 2021 at 12:59
  • 1
    @DonaldDuck I disagree because if the user's actions posed in the question prove they are not thinking then pointing that out is to their benefit at the end of the day. Getting worked up because someone's pointed out a deficiency in the approach you've taken should be taken on board and learned from not argued over because someone's "woke" feelings have been hurt.
    – user692942
    Sep 3, 2021 at 15:26
  • 4
    "you are not thinking, you are cargo-culting. And you should never do that" is not friendly. It may or may not be rude/unfriendly/hostile/whatever, but it is not friendly.
    – TylerH
    Sep 3, 2021 at 16:08
  • 2
    @user692942 Pointing out that an approach is bad isn't wrong in itself, but it could be worded differently to make it less personal. I think Paul's answer does a good job at explaining how the same criticism could have been worded differently in order not to come across as rude. Sep 3, 2021 at 16:26
  • @DonaldDuck: If OP had said just said ("you are not thinking") I suppose I would agree. But that's not the entire comment. Regardless - yes, it could be worder to be nicer. But it is still quite acceptable.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 3, 2021 at 18:30
  • 1
    @einpoklum My argument's point is that I disagree with that position. Were I responsible for enforcing the CoC, I would not leave the comment standing as is, because I view it as violating the CoC. It is not just "not sufficiently friendly", it is not "friendly" at all.
    – TylerH
    Sep 3, 2021 at 19:03
  • 1
    @TylerH: Let's just say... it is infinitely nicer and more friendly than the behavior you say you would have engaged in had you the authority to do so.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 3, 2021 at 19:50
  • 1
    @einpoklum It sounds like you have some misguided understanding of how moderators "must" operate. There's nothing preventing a soft touch of moderation (and in fact its encouraged). If a comment is partially useful and partially unfriendly, it's a far better outcome to edit the unfriendly contents out of the comment than just delete it and/or put the poster in the penalty box, silently or otherwise. Mods can edit comments, and sometimes do, though rarely. My proposed process above would be even more of a light touch, because it includes discussing it beforehand with the poster.
    – TylerH
    Sep 3, 2021 at 20:31
  • 2
    This is only my two cents, but I thought I would participate all the same. I think I can see why you think it wasn't "not nice". The problem is that, on one hand, "you are not thinking" could be a personal attack, questioning the person's capability to think (that's a subtle put-down). And on the other hand, it could also simply mean that the person's thought process is being challenged (underlining that it's simply wrong). Which interpretation is understood depends entirely on how the person's day went (I'm thinking anyone with a rough day is more keen to take things personally - no proof).
    – Clockwork
    Sep 3, 2021 at 23:37
  • 1
    @Clockwork: I agree with what you said except for the "entirely". It depends somewhat on how your day went. But - even under your characterization, it cannot be seen to have crossed the CoC not-niceness threshold.
    – einpoklum
    Sep 4, 2021 at 9:17

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