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It is basically a 6-year-old problem on Stack Overflow. See this topic: Help removing rtl tag

Where it seems there is a constant fight to tag the questions correctly, and even now you can find questions tagged with instead of the correct tag.

As you can see here: Questions tagged [register-transfer-level]

Of the first 10 questions, six of them belong to the tag.

I became aware of this issue with this question which was tagged incorrectly and fixed: How to change direction of text to rtl by aspose.diagram

I personally believe that the majority of developers will think about when reading the tag and there I would suggest to make the change.

Edit:

Sooo, 7 days have passed since the last activity, is this problem solvable or do we postpone it for another 6 years?

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    Seems to be a byproduct of renaming the [rtl] tag to [register-transfer-level], looks like some noob mod handled the other 6 year old question. Honestly, I'd rather delete rtl completely, but it would just end up getting recreated, so the best option remaining is to move it to [right-to-left]. May 11, 2021 at 7:00
  • 13
    @BhargavRao Why no delete rtl and blacklist it May 11, 2021 at 7:05
  • 3
    @Nick blacklist needs dev approval, and without a strong reason, it won't get any. (note: blacklist is a heavy operation) May 11, 2021 at 7:07
  • 3
    ... Well that's annoying May 11, 2021 at 7:07
  • 17
    I wouldn't think about anything specific, programming related when reading "rtl". Such a TLA is practically meaningless without context. Just remove the synonym and write it out... May 11, 2021 at 8:15
  • 1
    Yes, yes it should.
    – TylerH
    May 11, 2021 at 14:50
  • 9
    It is surprisingly difficult to get Google to return right-to-left for the search term rtl alone, or if you use vacuous terms like "programming", "code", "developer" or even "design". You have to ask it something like rtl direction, rtl layout, rtl script or rtl writing before it'll guess right-to-left. No wonder some people think rtl stands for "register transfer level". I think it really depends on what group of people you ask. The vast majority of UI/web/game developers, as well as writers (technical or not) will tell you it means right-to-left, even absent of context.
    – BoltClock
    May 11, 2021 at 15:18
  • The question then becomes whether "rtl" is ambiguous enough to warrant not allowing its use as a tag, synonym or otherwise. Personally I'd be surprised if it was. But, you know, I'm not a digital designer. I could be biased.
    – BoltClock
    May 11, 2021 at 15:20
  • is removing the abbreviation as synonym and adding the abbreviation to the tag it self register-transfer-level [RTL] and right-to-left [RTL] an option? this way users typing rtl, in the list of tags, should get both tags and hopefully pick the correct one. May 11, 2021 at 15:24
  • @RandRandom That would be too verbose in my opinion. We'd just want to refer to the acronym in the tag wiki excerpt. Of course, everyone reads those...
    – TylerH
    May 11, 2021 at 21:19
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    Ironically, when I read the title of this question, I was very confused, because I thought, clearly everybody knows that RTL stands for register transfer language, a class of internal compiler representations used, among others, in GCC and CompCert. May 12, 2021 at 4:25
  • @JörgWMittag: Yeah, same, another vote here for reading RTL as Register Transfer Language; I never come across RTL in my day-to-day usage, but certainly do think about GCC internals. But I don't expect my experience to be typical. So similar to letting more popular non-assembly usage of [gas] take that away from the [gnu-assembler], looks like it's time to give this one up. (unlike [gas], I've never wanted to tag a question [rtl], and the [gcc] tag covers GCC's flavour of it if we do have questions about RTL) May 12, 2021 at 4:53
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    @PeterCordes: Oddly, I expected your link to go to a page explaining Ethereum … I know about GNU Assembler, of course, but my second association would be the Ethereum meaning. I never heard of Google Apps Script until now. May 12, 2021 at 5:02
  • 4
    ? RTL > Radio Télévision Luxembourg > rtl.de :-D
    – monty
    May 12, 2021 at 18:54
  • 2
    Am I the only one who thinks RTL stands for run-time library? May 13, 2021 at 0:00

3 Answers 3

15

I agree; I think it's wrong to synonymize to . should have been synonymized to because when someone reads "RTL" they almost surely will think "Right to Left" rather than "Register Transfer Level".

There are currently 177 questions with . By my count there are currently 23 questions tagged that used to mean "Right to Left"... they're all currently on the first page of the tag filter, or in other words, they've all been asked in the last year.

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    when someone reads "RTL" they almost surely will think "Right to Left" rather than "Register Transfer Level". Um, this seems to be wholly dependent on whether your background has more to do with text rendering or hardware design. Admittedly, the former is probably more common, so I can't really argue with that logic (no pun intended), but as a member of the supposed minority, I'd much prefer simply deleting rtl than synonymizing it to the more popular thing, which is likely to just make the obscure meaning even more obscure.
    – trent
    May 11, 2021 at 20:53
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    @trentcl I think the downside of deleting the tag is that we simply delay the inevitable date it comes back, instead of dealing with the problem in a way that will hopefully be somewhat clearer to more folks than it is now.
    – zcoop98
    May 11, 2021 at 21:01
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    @trentcl Sure, if someone is using Verilog/VHDL, they may think of Register Transfer Level first. But the number of people who deal with text direction massively outnumbers those who use Verilog/VHDL. ~11,000 questions in those two tags vs over 55,000 results for the search term "text-direction", and over 440,000 results for the search term "right-to-left". Don't fall prey to an epistemic bubble!
    – TylerH
    May 11, 2021 at 21:07
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    @trentcl Regarding if someone types in RTL and lands on results of people trying to get Arabic text to display correctly on their webpage, do you think people are searching for Register Transfer Level information by using the keyword RTL? And that they would lose out if not able to search for it based on the keyword RTL? I doubt it... they would search for Register Transfer Level instead and only then learn it is abbreviated often as RTL. We could add a hardware-rtl tag or something to help, I suppose.
    – TylerH
    May 11, 2021 at 21:10
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    I absolutely do think people are searching for information about register transfer level code using the RTL abbreviation, as pointed out in the question comments, that is by far the most common search hit for the abbreviation outside of Stack Overflow. The epistemic bubble here is Stack Overflow itself, which strongly suggests that re-synonymizing rtl will not discourage people from using it incorrectly.
    – trent
    May 11, 2021 at 21:14
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    @trentcl I disagree; Stack Overflow isn't a bubble here, but a much larger field. Otherwise the term ''bubble" wouldn't make any sense. I don't think a user would learn about "RTL" without first learning it stands for "Register Transfer Level". At the very least they probably look up the term before needing to ask/search for a programming-related question about it here.
    – TylerH
    May 11, 2021 at 21:17
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    You seem to be saying that people learn about abbreviations by searching for the expanded form, which... doesn't make sense to me. Did you learn the abbreviation "CSS" by searching for "Cascading Style Sheets"? Or did you come across the acronym first and only then learn what it stood for? I'm confused how this argument is supposed to favor "right-to-left" which if anything is an even more obvious, searchable acronym than "register transfer level" which is jargon of which the acronym has a life of its own.
    – trent
    May 11, 2021 at 21:34
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    @trentcl: I learned the abbreviation CSS from one of the few software-related court cases that received widespread mainstream media attention. May 12, 2021 at 4:30
  • @Jörg W Mittag: Oddly, I learned about DeCSS just a couple of years after learning Cascading Style Sheets, when reading about similar cases.
    – BoltClock
    May 12, 2021 at 4:46
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    @trentcl No, I'm saying they would not be searching for programming questions on Stack Overflow by using the term "RTL" unless they already knew it stood for "Register Transfer Level".
    – TylerH
    May 12, 2021 at 13:27
  • This makes no sense at all. If I know how to deal with right-to-left on CSS, I won't know about C++, .net, java, etc. Only the people that know those will be able to answer those questions. Right to left is domain specific to each language/framework/context/etc. It should not exist as tag.
    – Braiam
    May 12, 2021 at 16:59
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    I don't understand how people are even arguing about this. Right-to-left is a human language term and the acronym RTL is long-established for referring to it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-left_script. It's relevant to computers, and therefore Stack Overflow, because they often deal with the presentation of human languages; but to claim that the acronym RTL is "more relevant" to a particular field of computing than to human language, is an "argument" so weak it may as well not exist.
    – Ian Kemp
    May 13, 2021 at 9:46
  • @IanKemp that's not enough to deserve a tag. That's why.
    – Braiam
    May 13, 2021 at 15:18
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    @Braiam Oh, I completely agree that we don't need an rtl tag, the problem is that unless we get it blacklisted (which seems to be an inordinately difficult process) it will just come back and be abused by whatever particularly entitled group thinks it belongs to them. So pragmatically, if blacklisting isn't possible, the most logical thing to do is synonymize it to right-to-left.
    – Ian Kemp
    May 13, 2021 at 15:21
  • @IanKemp well, technically a moderator just have to merge the tag and remove the synonym and then hope for people to not recreate it (and if it does, remove it fast).
    – Braiam
    May 13, 2021 at 15:42
10

No, it should not be re-synonymized. It should just be deleted, since it is ambiguous.

The acronym "RTL" is well-established on the Internet at large in the "register transfer level" sense, as shown by a search result for "RTL" on your favorite non-tracking search engine. The dominance of this meaning outside of Stack Overflow strongly implies that re-synonymizing it will not discourage casual SO users (who have encountered the acronym elsewhere) from using it in the (newly) incorrect sense when they have programming-related questions. Admittedly, that's still probably less bad than the current situation, since the overlap between RTL hardware design and programming is smaller than the overlap between text processing and programming; however, it's still not great because it invites the same problem albeit on a smaller scale.

Ideally, the ambiguous acronym would also be blocked, but apparently that's hard to do. The next best thing is probably creating synonyms that will appear as suggestions when a user types "rtl" into the tag field. I think makes the most sense for . As for , maybe .

If people persist in creating questions erroneously tagged , it would be fair at that point to inventory those questions and make an argument for whether it should be blacklisted or synonymized to . Re-synonymizing it at this point strikes me as premature.

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    RTL also stands for Register Transfer Language (in compiler internals), although we don't need a tag for that meaning; GCC's version of it (gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gccint/RTL.html) is covered by [gcc], and for people inventing their own or working on other compilers there's [compiler-construction]. We should have an rtl tag that's synonymized to something, just so a new [rtl] tag doesn't get created. (blacklists are overkill, and apparently inconvenient?). At least having useful auto-completes pop up for rtl would be good, too. May 12, 2021 at 4:59
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    “The acronym "RTL" is well-established on the Internet at large in the "register transfer level" sense, as shown by a search result for "RTL" on your favorite non-tracking search engine.” — How exactly did you establish that? Because when I search for RTL most of what I find obviously refers to other things, and I can’t discern a clear preference for “register-transfer level” over “right-to-left”. (That said, I agree with the deletion.) May 12, 2021 at 12:58
  • @Konrad Fair enough, I deliberately skipped over company names that have nothing obvious to do with programming, but in every case I tried "register transfer level" was the dominant acronym ignoring those.
    – trent
    May 12, 2021 at 13:10
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    Side note: I considered also using Google Ngrams, but, while I could find plenty of hardware-specific phrases ("RTL logic", "RTL circuit", "RTL code") I couldn't actually find a single phrase that would be specific to the "right-to-left" phrasing ("RTL script" and "RTL text" have too few hits to register, and "RTL language" is ambiguous).
    – trent
    May 12, 2021 at 13:10
  • @KonradRudolph if you use google, it interprets that you are looking at stuff related to c++, .net, etc. . If you have a background on hardware, then it shows you the other meaning. If you are in the finance business, it shows you RTL group.
    – Braiam
    May 12, 2021 at 14:00
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    @Braiam … I obviously used the private browsing mode to get an unbiased search listing. May 12, 2021 at 17:54
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    Although I agree with the deletion, I don’t think RTL meaning “Register Transfer level” is well-established on the Internet. A Google search for "right to left" returns more than 43 million results. "Register transfer level" returns 256 000 results. Surely the people who discuss the former also use the RTL abbreviation. Now, of course, these results are not restricted to programming.
    – Didier L
    May 12, 2021 at 23:30
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    @KonradRudolph you really believe that's enough? You country, what google knows about you, etc. influences. The only way you can get biased towards someone else results. Try bing or duckduckgo and you will see that right to left is not even in the first 3 results
    – Braiam
    May 13, 2021 at 15:23
  • @Braiam When using private browsing “what Google knows about you” does not influence search results. Your location does but that isn’t terribly relevant here. — And in fact, searching for rtl "right-to-left" yields vastly more results than does rtl "register-transfer level. May 13, 2021 at 15:25
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    @KonradRudolph seems that you have a serious misunderstanding of what google does. Here, google with private and without. Notice the uncanny resemblance? Try it. Also, amount of results doens't matter for SO.
    – Braiam
    May 13, 2021 at 15:31
  • @Braiam I can assure you I don’t, and I get completely different results with and without private browsing mode. If you don’t, might I suggest that you either don’t usually use Google, or that you’re now using it wrong? At any rate, my results are not at all dependent on Google. May 13, 2021 at 15:33
  • @KonradRudolph well, your results are all dependent of contextual information, which is the point. Google isn't representative of every user of SO. Also, this is my work device, which would say that I use google right :D
    – Braiam
    May 13, 2021 at 16:23
  • I think that rtl-order would make more sense than rtl-text, but even better: rtl-right-to-left and rtl-register-transfer-level. Those would be stupid tags, but they make more sense as synonyms than things like rtl-logic. I mean, how would someone know that rtl-logic does not refer to right-to-left-logic? Whereas those who type rtl and see rtl-right-to-left and rtl-register-transfer-level would immediately know which of the two they wanted.
    – mdfst13
    May 13, 2021 at 22:58
  • I think mdfst (@randrandom)'s solution (rtl-right-to-left and rtl-register-transfer-level) which is similar to what I see Wiki's doing is correct. If you type an ambiguous term into most Wiki's, it takes you to a disambiguation page. As far as I can tell, that's the effect that is wanted here. And the argument that rtl-xxxxx is too verbose is ignoring the ambiguity. When I use a tag, I'm hoping to draw the appropriate attention to my question. I am hoping to disambiguate what my question is about.... May 14, 2021 at 12:43
-9

In 2 years rtl got 109 renames, that means 55 a year or ~4.5 month. Right to left gets 4 question last 30 days. That would mean that there are far more right to left questions than register transfer level, right? Well, yes, but here's the thing: right to left top answerers have only 1 answer. The two with most answers are because they answer css or android/c++/java questions, all of these tags represent a sizeable chunk tags related to right-to-left. The existence of a right-to-left tag is suspect at best.

So here's a spitball idea: what if we remove the synonym of rtl to any tag and the right to left tag. Register transfer level question won't have to deal with the stray right-to-left tagged question and we don't have to decide which the TLA tag synonym has to point to.

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    You need some kind of tag to indicate when someone wants to change the text direction for a document/page. The question is too common to not have one. The subject is not well-curated, for sure, but I suspect if it were the top answerers would have more than 1 answer.
    – TylerH
    May 12, 2021 at 13:25
  • @TylerH no, you don't need a tag, you need a title. Titles are the description of the problem, the elevator pitch. Tags aren't meant to describe the problem, they aren't #hashtags.
    – Braiam
    May 12, 2021 at 13:49
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    Tags are classifications (which are also what hashtags are for, btw)
    – TylerH
    May 12, 2021 at 14:51
  • @TylerH no, hashtags are a buzzword for social ittreactions around nebulous topics. Tags are for answerers to find questions to answer. We aren't a library to implement a Dewey Decimal system.
    – Braiam
    May 12, 2021 at 15:29
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    Erm... no, hashtags serve a purpose that is identical to Stack Overflow tags.
    – TylerH
    May 12, 2021 at 15:37

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