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It seems to me that there's at least one Meta question being asked around tag burnination, or retagging, daily. The reason for this is simply that the number of tags that are irrelevant, or just downright useless, is finally starting to become a noticeable problem to many curators (even though it was first remarked upon a decade ago). And the reason there are so many bad tags is because of the relatively low bar of 1,500 reputation required to create a tag (yes there's a warning popup as per the above link, but users don't read).

This bar may have been appropriate when the site consisted mostly of users who were diligent and careful in their actions and involved in curation, but that's no longer the case in 2021. It's also the case today that more people outside the curation circle will have reached that amount of reputation, and will continue to accrue reputation, so raising that bar will only have the effect of kicking the can down the road.

In short, rep-gating tag creation is no longer an effective way to ensure that only quality tags are created.

Why does this matter, when we have the burnination and retag processes? Because those processes are very much a case of shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted, or in most cases attempting to, because (a) relatively few burninate/retag requests are actually posted (b) of those, many are declined for various reasons (c) they are extremely manual processes, requiring each question with a bad tag to be edited one-by-one to remove or replace said tag.

The best way to avoid hard work is to not have to do it in the first place. Therefore, I propose a new tag creation process, built around community consensus as well as reputation:

  • The "tag creation" privilege becomes a "tag proposal" privilege. The reputation requirement remains at 1,500.
  • When a user creates a tag, they are not actually creating it, merely proposing that it be created. That tag goes into a "proposed" status which sends it to a new "tag creation" review queue. The tag will not be discoverable in the standard manner, nor can it be applied to any question.
  • The new review queue works similarly to Triage:
    • If 3 users agree that a suggested tag is indeed worthy of creation, the tag's status is updated to "created" and it now functions as a tag does on the site currently. The user who created that tag will be notified that they can now start using that tag on their questions.
    • Alternatively, if 3 users vote to reject that tag, or its approval time expires (suggestion: 24 hours from proposal) without receiving the 3 upvotes required for creation, it is set to "deleted" status and the user who attempted to create it will be notified.

Edge cases:

  • If a different user attempts to create a tag that's already "proposed", they will be notified of this, and added to the list of users to be notified upon the approval or decline of that tag from the queue.
  • If a user attempts to propose a tag that's already been deleted, they're informed of this and can choose to do nothing, or ask on Meta as to why this is and/or propose that tag be re-created (with valid reasoning, of course).

The nice thing about this proposal is that it also solves one of the biggest problems inherent in burnination, namely the large number of questions affected, because the "deleted" status can now be applied to a tag affected in such a way - instead of each question having to be manually edited to remove the offending tag. No, this doesn't prevent each question affected having to be examined to determine whether the tag should be removed and/or replaced, but it does (indirectly) address the lack of a "bulk untag questions" function.

(See also: Make it harder to create tags - this process is essentially a fleshed-out version of that, although I only noticed that question after I'd thought through and typed up everything above.)

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  • 122
    If this were to be implemented, I'd go one step further and when a tag is being "proposed" require a minimal description of the tags purpose and why it's needed to be presented during review Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 13:56
  • 19
    Agreed with the premise. I think tag creation is too easy. I'm saying this as someone who by sheer luck hasn't created new tags. As far as I remember, at least. I do know I was on the verge of creating a tag by accident a few times because I've made a change to the tags field and left a half-finished tag name or similar. I've caught myself and redacted before saving the edit.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 13:57
  • 13
    The create tags privilege was my first encounter with a privilege, I'd really rather not have. Personally I'd like to add an option to opt-out of any "privileges". Apart from that "24 hours from proposal" is not enough time to have it reviewed. 4 days or 2 weeks seems more appropriate or what the normal time for any tag wiki edit suggestion is currently. Remember they likely need to be reviewed by subject matter experts.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 14:08
  • 7
    There is a New Tags section in Review->Tools->Stats which is accessible to all 20K+ users. Review them and burninate early instead. Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 14:27
  • 15
    @oguzismail Burnination still needs to go through the pain-in-the-rear formal process. Prevention is better than cure.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 14:43
  • 25
    The only trick here that I see is if I'm creating a question that only needs one, newly created, tag. Since tags are no longer created immediately, I'm going to add a possibly irrelevant tag in order for my question to be asked now, rather than whenever you elitist gate keepers decide my tag is worthy ;-) Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 15:27
  • 8
    even below 20k you can see the new created tags here. Yesterday I edited out a new tag with the name 1.1 and in the past already 2 or 3 times angualr
    – jps
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 15:45
  • 7
    What would you suggest happens if a user posts a question with only 1 tag, and that is proposed? A question needs to have at least one tag, so would it force the user to add a second one? (Edge/Stupid Case: What if they try to add 5 tags, that are all new proposals?) Making them add another, to ensure the question has at least one, could promote tag spam when users don't pay attention to warnings/messages in the first place.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 15:49
  • 3
    @Larnu Maybe implement a hard limit of 1 tag per *insert time window*?
    – Lino
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 15:53
  • 7
    and if we consider another review queue, who will do the reviews? The same "approve all"-bots as in the edit queue? What would we win then?
    – jps
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 16:17
  • 14
    @Scratte how will you define who is a Subject Matter Expert, when the tag does not already exist on SO? Sure, for the lastest Python release you can check who has python already, but for new features with no predecessor? Completely new languages? The only 'generic' trust metric available on SO is reputation score.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 16:40
  • 3
    @IanKemp the burnination process is for established tags. I don't have access to the newly created tags page, but I imagine it's for tags that will have like... 1 to 5 posts... Removing bad tags at such a minuscule scale doesn't require the burnination process.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 19:33
  • 3
    Is your first paragraph an attempt at reverse-psychology? Otherwise, it's not a good start, unless it really is just a thought experiment. Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 21:30
  • 4
    What is the typical age of burninated tags? Most that I see were created 8-10 years ago when it wasn't as clear what would be useful. Restricting new tags now won't help with that.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 22:31
  • 3
    @Clonkex Why does it need to be a separate step to add an approved tag? The user who creates or edits a post may see their newly created tag under the post; other users may see something like [my-new-tag] (needs approval) (if anything), with a link to the suggested edit review task providing an initial tag excerpt and tag description. If it’s rejected, so is the tag, and the tag is removed. If it’s approved, the tag is automatically applied to the question. In the meantime no other post may use this tag, and if the question ends up with 0 tags, maybe apply untagged or something. Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 5:29

12 Answers 12

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Who will be reviewing in this new review queue? Users with 2,500 or more? What is the reputation gate for the queue?

Alternatively, if 3 users vote to reject that tag, or its approval time expires without receiving the 3 upvotes required for creation, it is set to "deleted" status and the user who attempted to create it will be notified..

I don't like the idea of "deleting" a tag proposal after a set amount of time. This review queue could become really big, which means there could be a lot of good proposal which go completely unnoticed and, as a result, get deleted.


Another suggestion: give an option to users to link their new created tag with another existing tag that is closely related. This way, users can filter on the existing tags.

For instance, if someone decides to create a tag, they would have to link it with . Then I would filter and get the suggestion.

This way, subject-matter experts have a better impact on the queue.

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  • 10
    Great idea! Alternatively, to find the subject matter experts (SMEs) for the new (proposed) tag, do this: (a) require any new tag proposal to include at least N (5-10) questions to be tagged with the proposed tag, (b) find the most frequent existing tags for these N questions, (c) find the most frequent users that posted answers tagged with these existing tags - these are the SMEs for the new tag. Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:23
  • 4
    What if I want to create a new tag for a brand new language called Netupine? Which tag should I use as my "backup" tag for that? "Arrays" seems a little too weak, no?
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:35
  • 1
    @Scratte I changed it up so that you are given an option to link it with a new tag. If it is a new js package or something, you could link it to Java Script. If it is an entirely new language, then link it to programming-languages.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:37
  • 4
    I like the auto-suggest-linking feature. Apart from its inherent usefulness, if someone proposes a tag that is misspelled and the site suggests the correctly-spelled version, that person would (hopefully) realise their error and cancel the creation.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:44
  • 3
    @TimurShtatland I can see how that will go wrong. If I need a new tag, but I also need it associated with 10 Questions.. I'll find 10 and add the tag. It'll probably be completely irrelevant on them, but if the system says I need to do it... On a more practical matter, how can one add a tag that already needs to associated with 10 Questions, before it's created?
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:50
  • @10Repsaysgetvaccinated "If it is a new js package" is not what I asked about. I deliberately picked something that would not be. Something that's completely new.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:53
  • @Scratte What I meant is that the form to propose a new tag should require one to insert URLs to 5-10 existing posts to be tagged with the new tag if it is approved. So the person who proposes the tag also proposes the example questions. They are good for illustration (as examples), but also serve to screen for subject matter experts. It is in the best interests of the person who proposes the tag for find good examples - otherwise the tag proposal will have a higher chance to get rejected by less relevant reviewers. Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:55
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    @Scratte I adressed that. You would either not link it, or link it to programming-languages.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:58
  • 1
    @10Repsaysgetvaccinated Right. I don't like that the new language "Netupine" should be associated with "programming-languages" as my Question is completely unrelated to that tag. I've asked a Question about a specific problem in the language, not about "express computations that can be performed by a machine".
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 18:12
  • @TimurShtatland I only have one Question about this new language. It's the first one. Are you saying I need to spam with 9 irrelevant Questions? None of the existing Questions on Stack fits the new tag.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 18:15
  • 2
    But again, it's entirely optional to link it. If you invented a new language and you want a tag for it, then you don't have to link it to anything. Linking is just to give extra info to reviewers. It's just an idea that may or may not be implemented in the near future.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 18:16
  • @Scratte A tag that has less than 10 questions has limited usefulness. Can you give a few examples of useful tags with less than 10 questions? Besides, AFAIK, tags with so few questions are actually prime candidates for burnination - the very opposite of tag creation... If you create a new tag, I think it better be applicable to more than 10 questions! Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 19:17
  • 1
    Linked tags would be a far, far bigger project.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 19:29
  • 2
    @TimurShtatland I think all tags started out with just one Question. That's my point. It doesn't grow unless it starts.I absolutely disagree that a tag should be burninated just because there aren't a lot of Questions on it. A tag should be burninated if it's not relevant or it it's useless only.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 19:48
  • 2
    Your suggestion about "linking" tags sounds like tag hierarchies and related features. Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 10:58
44

tl;dr

I don't think it is necessary to complicate tag creation. It might be worth to simplify tag cleanup.


Suppose we have a new tag proposal review queue. Here is possible content of that queue (taken from https://stackoverflow.com/tools, New tags):

new tags 02.02.2021

For most tags from the "New tags" list, I have no idea what they mean, and would vote "Skip" in the queue. Who is supposed to proof-read and verify all new tags? (I'm afraid robo-reviewers will create even more topics for meta discussions)

Last times I heard [tiktok] is not a programming language, framework or other tech. So if I had to vote in the queue, I would say "No, don't create it". But then again I tried to delete pokemon-go tag, when it first appeared. Guess what? It is still around, community wants it. Or at least it doesn't harm anyone, like new tag [virtual-webcam] doesn't harm me.

If some tag becomes a problem in somebody's opinion it is fine to create burnination request and discussion on meta. (e.g. me vs [pokemon-go], probably would be declined).

For situations, when request is approved, give moderators one large and simple button:

Delete %tag_name% from all questions and blacklist it for future

Boring things like manual cleanup can and should be avoided by automating the process.

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    "Last times I heard [tiktok] is not a programming language, framework or other tech" - I believe TikTok has an API, just like Facebook, which we also have a tag for. Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 12:29
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    There's also tag synonyms feature (description, list) that's mostly unknown and therefore not very useful as the proposed synonyms hang there for years. The fact that only "Users with a total answer score of 5 or more on the tag, can vote for tag synonyms" doesn't help either.
    – user
    Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 19:24
  • 2
    The only issue I'd see with <kbd>Delete %tag_name% from all questions and blacklist it for future</kbd> is the fact that you could end with untagged question, which is, I think, not something we do want. Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 13:31
  • 1
    @ÎČ.ΔηοÎčτ.ÎČΔ, well, skip those during sql update, handle them manually
    – ASh
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 13:54
  • 4
    FWIW there is the untagged tag that gets auto-applied to questions when this inadvertently happens or during a migration to a site that doesn't have any of the same tags used on the original site. So it wouldn't be too difficult to track and manage cleanup of such holdover questions.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 5, 2021 at 16:01
35

I agree with the main idea but I have a couple of notes.

  • As miken32 said in his answer, creating a separate review queue for this purpose is unlikely to be helpful.

  • One of the biggest problems with newly-created tags, in my opinion, is that they rarely have any description (tag wiki) or usage guidance (excerpt).

So, here’s my proposal:

  1. Ask the user who proposes a new tag to provide a description and usage guidance for the tag and make at least one of them required. Any user creating a tag should have a pretty good idea of what it represents and how it should be used. If they don’t, it’s only logical that they shouldn’t be adding the tag to the system.

  2. Use the Suggested Edits Review Queue for the purpose of reviewing tag creations. Right now, we already use that queue to show tag wiki edit suggestions (Requires 5,000 reputation). Why not use the same mechanism to review tag creations as well? Probably, very little development would be required in this case. The page will just need to have some indication that this is a new tag proposal and we will need one or two rejection reasons dedicated for tag creations. The reviewers will check the tag name, read the tag wiki, and judge two things:

    • whether or not the tag is actually needed

    • whether or not the tag description and usage guidance are sufficient.

    Then, decide whether to approve or reject the tag.

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    This sounds like a simple and effective solution. I like that. Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 9:14
  • 1
    What would happen if someone does create a new tag and enters a tag wiki or excerpt that is rejected in the review queue? Would the tag be automatically deleted? What happens if that's the only tag on the question?
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 11:59
  • @Larnu 1) Either don't add the tag to the question until it gets approved (probably not ideal) or don't add it the list of tags (don't allow others to use it). With the first option, no further action is needed. With the second option, if the tag is rejected, it only needs to be removed from the question(s) whose owner proposed the tag. 2) Don't allow posting a question with non-existing tag(s) exclusively.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 14:24
  • 3) Perhaps Trusted Users (>=20k) who can already edit tag wikis without needing approval should also have the ability to create tags without approval.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 14:30
  • 1
    Third bullet: whether or not the tag description is plagiarized/copy-pasta from product page or GitHub README. Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 15:19
  • 2
    The problem is with so many tags completely missing even the most basic information about them. This makes them intrinsically hard to use and likely useless to every Stack Overflow user (possibly including the creator of the tag?). A requirement that a tag proposal must include at least a usage guidance or a tag-wiki description (or both?) might be the most important change to rectify the problem with bad tags, I think. Commented Feb 17, 2021 at 16:28
  • > make at least one of them required - According to When is it appropriate to create a tag?, no tag should ever be created without an accompanying guide on how to use it. Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 14:13
12

There is some potential here, but I'd make the following observations.

That tag goes into a "proposed" status which sends it to a new "tag creation" review queue.

This could be problematic if care is not taken to make it useful. Take the tag synonym “queue” for example. It is next to useless since very few people know about it and its gatekeeping mechanism is, IMO, too restrictive.

Alternatively, if 3 users vote to reject that tag, or its approval time expires (suggestion: 24 hours from proposal) without receiving the 3 upvotes required for creation, it is set to "deleted" status

That is far too short a window. Delete votes on posts, for example, last months (at least.) Especially if the queue is not popular, this would make it useless.

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    That's precisely my concern. It would be difficult to make the proposal here work well for niche subjects; the 24 hours limit, in particular, would be utterly unworkable. (By the way, the analogous issue with synonyms is real; I have ran into it in the past.)
    – duplode
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 20:09
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    I may just be salty because it's been almost 4 years since my perfectly cromulent suggestions and I still don't have the synonymizer badge lol
    – miken32
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 20:36
  • 2
    I also addressed this in my answer - I think having a approval time is not a good idea as I imagine this queue will grow substantially. Also I think tag synonymization is broken, so if this is implemented, I hope it doesn't end up like that, because creating tags is important.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 20:44
11

Are StackOverflow tags a folksonomy, or a taxonomy, like Linnaen classification?

If it's a folksonomy, the community should have ways to sift through and promote useful classifications that emerge from common use, and there will always be a long tail of low-value tags, a kind of primordial meaning soup from which new terms will emerge.

If it's a taxonomy, there should be a serious, formal process around proposing a new category, argued with strong evidence, and an example species, before a panel of experts.

Clearly it started as a folksonomy, and how else would SO have bootstrapped it in the early days? It has already moved some distance from low-barrier category creation, given the reputation requirement.

How far towards a taxonomy and away from a folksonomy should it move? You could take it all the way to zoological classification, or have an Académie Française of tags. Those positions are prestigious. The AF even have natty jackets. I'm not sure which organization would provide the natty jackets here.

I haven't spent decades in the trenches of StackOverflow editing, but personally, I think it should be more towards the folksonomy end. That means not making it too hard to create a new tag, and giving editors ways to deal with the mess of existing ones. Without it, creating new categories for new types of technology becomes an expensive, committee-driven, bureaucratic process. Where does it evolve to? Want to ask a question about an interesting new programming tool, and tag it appropriately? Too bad, you don't have the 3000 rep and haven't gone through the seven-stage approval process.

I don't think you're wrong to want a cleaner taxonomy. But I wonder whether a bottom-up community-driven site, with unpaid editors, is a good place for it. I would point out that the personalities who tend to be meta-editors, and worriers about tags, also tend to favour formal taxonomies.

I also wonder whether much of the benefit could be gained by simpler editing of new tags, rather than outright gating. I agree with better tools to manage the inevitable folksy mess. Eg merging tags could be a simple action when the tag had below a certain threshold of posts. There are some other usability suggestions in other answers.

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    Merging tags is trivial for moderators, regardless of the number of posts contained.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 5:39
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    There is so much insight here, it is a great answer. Stack Overflow was designed for a more informal approach so as to allow as much signal as possible, even in the case where it produces noise as a byproduct. We should absolutely weigh towards folksomony, because Google doesn't care about the long tail, just like it doesn't care if you like spaces or tabs. Adam, why is this your first meta post? Looking forward to more insights.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 6:08
  • @TravisJ there are several issues with folksonomy: it allows ambiguity, SE own help page says that there shouldn't be. There are no synonym system, SE does have one. There are other fundamental partings with folksonomy that I detailed elsewhere. In other words, the system isn't designed to favor folksonomy at all, and I suspect that our short failing is presuming that it does.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 12:13
  • @Braiam - I think that if someone asks a question about using JavaScript to expand an html element by applying some css, and they tag the question [javascript][css][html] that there is no ambiguity there. Now, if they tag it also with [expand] then yes, a minor amount of ambiguity has been introduced. [expand] on its own means nothing, and in this context may confuse people to some minor degree......................if they were only looking at tags. Which, shouldn't be the case. There should be a wholistic approach to content which factors in tags, title, and body. In that real world scenario,
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 22:55
  • having a one off tag of [extend] here is such a minor issue that it absolutely does not make sense to suddenly go to all of our busy contributors, put them into a posse, and force them to seek and destroy every instance of [extend] which was improperly used. So, I put it to you, that the system is designed for this amount of minor ambiguity, because any significant barriers to content creation were explicitly avoided during the design of the system. A system which did not include using synonyms during design, and which is by all means a bandaid which attempts to hide these minor nuances.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 22:55
  • 2
    People have spent countless hours wasting away worrying about tags, where has it gotten them? Or us for that matter? What could they have done with all that time instead of making sure a post about html, css, and javascript didn't have an [extend] tag on it? For the same reason that reputation from votes caps at 200, an amount of ambiguity is allowed, because we don't need to be draconian in our approach else we end up burning people out and wasting time on issues that don't need attention.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 22:55
  • @TravisJ the problem with that analogy and the argument that follows it is that ignores that tags should be self contained. Tags should not and must not need context to convey meaning. They are used for hammer, filtering, etc. which are systems that only look at tags and tags alone. Forget about the post when discussing tags, it's irrelevant as it so much that it just need to describe the content of it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 23:35
  • 1
    The problem is, that isn't an analogy. That is what happens all the time. Someone uses a tag to simply add context. I completely agree that tags should not be used as some sort of meta modifier for other tags. [extend] is not a worthwhile tag for the most part, see here for a very real example of my use case: stackoverflow.com/questions/65556207/… . Don't alter that post though. My whole point here is that it is a waste of time to take strong action against these types of scenarios, because it does not solve anything.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 5, 2021 at 0:39
  • 1
    For those of us who cherish the legacy of Jeff Atwood, it should be clear that tags are meant to be a folksonomy, and a useful one at that. Commented Feb 17, 2021 at 16:09
  • @Henke funny that you say that, because in the same post Jeff says "As Stack Overflow has grown, so has the need for discipline around tagging". Folksonomy doesn't have such requirement.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 22, 2021 at 19:17
11

Bump. Something ought to be done about this! +191 score of the question indicates an overwhelmingly strong community consensus.


The current system is ridiculous:

Requirements/prerequisites to create a tag:

  • One person with 1500 rep and potentially no domain knowledge.
  • A cat walking across the keyboard.

Requirements/prerequisites to remove a tag:

  • Create a formal meta post to discuss the tag to be removed.
  • Value the tag according to the 4 criteria from What is the process for tag removal (burnination)?.
  • For <50 posts with the tag, engage at least two people with domain knowledge and do a manual clean-up. That is, ideally users with bronze tags and full edit privileges (2000 rep).
  • For >50 posts follow the formal procedure.
    • Wait for community consensus of 20 score which could take quite a while or never happen. At a bare minimum, 20 people need to vote.
    • Engage a diamond moderator to formalize things even further, edit & feature the post.
    • Wait for even more consensus.
    • Engage some 10-20 SO veterans and moderators with tag burnination, clean-ups and so on.
    • "Bump" a huge amount of posts in the process, disturbing the site.

Requirements/prerequisites to re-create a tag:

  • 1500 rep and that darn cat once more.

This is not a sensible system!

It should be almost as hard to create tags as to remove them. We are currently wasting a whole lot of human resources doing pointless busy-work, cleaning up tags that should never have been created in the first place.

This is taking up a lot of time for veteran user/diamond moderators, that could have been much better spent on review queues, edits and close voting instead.


My proposal is a similar flavour as the proposal in the question:

  • When someone attempts to create a tag, they should be prompted to add a tag description and tag usage guidance in the form of a tag wiki, with existing guidelines for how to create a tag wiki.
  • Use the existing suggested edit queue for tag wiki edits. The proposed tag + wiki will get to reviewed but the tag will not go live on the site before passing review.

This would also solve the problem with bad wikis and unclear tag usage guidance. If someone can't even formulate an idea of what a new tag is for and how should be used, it should probably not have been created in the first place.

2
  • Miauw-miauw...!! (Even the Cats agree...!) (+192 now...)
    – chivracq
    Commented Jun 8, 2022 at 9:49
  • 3
    @chivracq A small step for a cat, one giant pile of busy-work for mankind.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 8, 2022 at 10:01
8

Your entire motivation for this feature request is:

the number of tags that are irrelevant, or just downright useless, is finally starting to become a noticeable problem

Please explain:

  • Why are "irrelevant" or "useless" tags a problem?
  • Who determines that a tag deserves such a predicate?
  • How big is this problem, does it warrant a change this big?
  • For who exactly is this a problem?
  • How will this suggestion eradicate said problem?
  • What problem does removing or rejecting a tag solve?

There are 64,000+ tags at the time of writing. There being one question a day on Meta about tags does not indicate a problem.

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    I believe some of these questions are answered in the paragraph about the time and frequency of tag renaming / cleanup / user time involved in this on meta. It seems acceptably logical that having fewer tags would help some of these problems. Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 17:26
  • 2
    @Félix obviously having fewer tags will require less time spent on cleaning up tags. I'm not contesting that. I'm asking about the benefits of cleaning up tags, which never became clear to me. People want to spend time on that, but with what purpose?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 20:15
  • 1
    I agree with the sentiment here. The logical jump made in the proposal is that "new tags" inevitably are many of the same tags that are getting burninated down the line. I'm not sure this is so simply the case- I think a stronger argument needs to be made to support that reviewing new tags would meaningfully help reduce the quantity of burn req's (the metric the post references).
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 23:21
  • I'd love to see a data dump of the age of tags referenced in burn requests (and specifically burns, not renames or merges). I suspect this is at least partially attainable through SEDE data...
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 23:24
  • This can actually have 100 characters more as a comment
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 10:54
  • 6
    "Why are "irrelevant" or "useless" tags a problem?" Because they send out the wrong signals, like the electronics tag discussed here. It seems likely that the presence of this tag encouraged some people to ask pure electronic questions, which are off-topic. And then there's the worst kind of tag misuse made possible by bad tags, for example tagging a question about binary search of a database as binary search data base.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 11:37
  • 2
    @Lundin I never believed that rhetoric. People want to ask a question anyway (and are not first going read what is on-topic here), and then slap a tag on it (not reading either what is mentioned in the tag description, like "DO NOT USE" or "THIS IS PROBABLY OFF-TOPIC"). In my humble opinion this does not work the other way around, i.e. that people first go read all tags they think they can apply to their question-to-be and then ask it anyway.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 11:41
  • 1
    @Lundin or to put it another way, it's like answering "Why do so many people smoke, what can we do about it?" with "I know, let's remove ashtrays from public garbage bins". That's not going to cause them to stop smoking, they'll just throw their butts on the street.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 11:43
  • 1
    @CodeCaster No, people don't read tag descriptions. But the problem in my example is that "search", "data" and "base" tags shouldn't exist in the first place. The kind of user who just want to slap on a tag to their question is somewhat unlikely to have the 1.5k rep necessary, though this rep cap could be higher.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 11:57
  • @Lundin I think there's a mismatch between the few users who want to methodically categorize all questions using the tag system and want all tags to be highly specific, and all other users who will slap any tag that looks about right on their question. The only people bothered by those "irrelevant" tags, are the people who are committed to the unmaintainable task which I described in my first sentence and which I consider unrealistic, and I do not see the harm they claim to stem from the existence of said tags. Is the removal of the "base" tag going to cause one less question to be asked?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 12:03
  • 4
    The harm is rather obvious. Lets say this question was actually about MySQL. Nobody is expert on data or on bases, but someone could be an expert on MySQL. This person watches questions tagged mysql. They most certainly do not watch data or base. And so the question flies out into no man's land, never to be found again. The OP is disappointed with the site because nobody answered. The MySQL expert is sad because nobody seems to be asking MySQL questions. The site overall misses the chance of a potentially good Q&A that could be preserved for the future. Everyone loses.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 12:10
  • 4
    @Lundin no, that doesn't ring with me. If someone has a MySQL question and doesn't understand the importance of tagging it with "MySQL", but instead tags it with "data" and "base", removing those tags isn't going to solve anything. That user will then use the "database" or "SQL" tag. They don't care. I'm not saying proper tagging isn't important, I'm saying it is impossible to build and maintain a foolproof system, the universe being able to generate even bigger fools and so on.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 12:20
4

This is an attempt at a Community-wiki answer that responds affirmatively to the proposal:

Tags should be reviewed before they are created.

The aim is to ensure that only quality tags are created.

The current number one reference to reach higher quality when tags are created is the answer to When is it appropriate to create a tag?, which among other things requires that no tag should ever be created without an accompanying guide on how to use it.
This rule is not enforced in any way, and is sadly violated over and over again.

The rest of this answer is a mishmash of opinions that have come up in non-Community-wiki answers, along with some views not previously brought up. It's a bit of a summary as well.

  • The reputation gate needed for proposing new tags should remain unchanged at what is currently 5 reputation points. 1

  • A proposal for a new tag should enter the already existing review queue for tag wiki edits. Thus, the reputation gate for voting to accept or reject a proposal for a new tag will be 5,000. 2

  • Give an option to tag proposers to link their newly created tag with another existing tag that is closely related. 3

  • No need for any approval time expiration. 4

  • StackOverflow tags are a folksonomy. 5


1 Not previously proposed here. Reference:
Privileges > participate in meta.

2 References:
Use the Suggested Edits Review Queue
Privileges > approve tag wiki edits.

3 Reference:
This way, users can filter on the existing tags.

4 Reference:
I think having a approval time is not a good idea as I imagine this queue will grow substantially.

5 References:
I think it should be more towards the folksonomy end.
Tag Folksonomy and Tag Synonyms.

4
  • Concerning footnote 1. Actually there are two official ways to create a new tag - the one described in this question that requires 1,500 - but also another one phrased "you can request the creation of a tag by starting a new meta discussion" which requires a mere 5 in reputation. Create tag for “Mapsui” is an example of a successful creation using the latter method. Commented Feb 19, 2021 at 14:50
  • The main issue this fails to take into consideration is that the main vector for tag creation is asking questions. Requiring approval for most users to post new questions means those tags won't get added to the question and potentially never will. A series of possible outcomes need to be addressed: 1. What if the tag is never approved? Does the question still get posted? Do we force the user to pick a different tag, potentially totally unrelated? 2. What if the question gets deleted before the tag is approved? Does the tag get removed from the queue and deleted as if it never got proposed? etc
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 11, 2022 at 14:23
  • I again came across the issues with tag creation today when making changes to a question. ~ * ~ My opinion is that the tag system is really important for finding the right questions. It works well, but could probably work even better. ~ * ~ I don't have ready-made solutions to the issues you bring up. But I think that a question can be created without the new tag, and the tag added once (if) it gets approved. I fail to see that any question would be written with only a new tag, so the new tag will be missing until approved. Commented Mar 11, 2022 at 16:26
  • 1
    and here you land upon another well-known (and unsolved) issue: the chicken and egg situation. A tag has to exist before a question can use it. Questions have to exist before a tag can be applied to them. There are no tags that are applied to zero questions. Re: questions that would be written with only a new tag, it does happen, as new programming technologies/languages/services come out, someone might want to ask about it, but find they need to use unrelated tags because they have to.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 11, 2022 at 17:04
3

If the original request is too much of a problem I would just require a description when adding a new tag.

Just a one-line will do, and nothing more (so different from another answer).

That would:

  • Add some friction, without imposing a major hurdle for creating new tags.
  • Reduce review work, as a significant percentage of edits are adding descriptions for tags without any description. In practice they would often require disambiguating as due to lack of description many tags have been applied to completely different topics.

For the practical problem with unclear tags and the additional review work, see:

2

It’s an interesting idea, and certainly the premise that a problem exists here is accurate.

That said, this proposal addresses the wrong problem in my opinion. Solving this symptom will not address the underlying cause. The design for rep gating works, it really does. However, we are no longer operating in the environment it was designed to work in. If we were to address this aspect of its failure here, and were to use the same approach for all of the symptoms that the rep gating failure applies to, we would create dozens of review queues.

We need to address rep gating itself, and apply it to the design it was intended for. Yes, that means curtailing the available reputation for privileges, and this is a conversation that has been had before. The counter argument that often comes up is “reputation represents site familiarity, and that doesn’t change over time”. Doesn’t it though? The site is changing, perhaps subtly sometimes, perhaps not others. Guidance changes as well, just look at the burnination process as an example of something that is in flux and was not here this entire time.

Rep gating will continue to present issues in a wide variety of places, and cutting off the reputation available for privileges to something like 30 months, will ensure that users who are using those features have earned their reputation in a timeframe which is relevant to today’s environment.

4
  • What if instead of limiting reputation to a certain timeframe, there was simply a contribution requirement for accessing certain privileges? In theory, this could be used to force certain features to only be available to users who are "active" (and thus "relevant to today’s environment," as you put it). I think this would have a similar effect, without having to disregard large but dated rep gains, which I do feel are still meaningful on some level, regardless of age.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 23:18
  • 1
    @zcoop98 - What would you envision the contribution requirement being for accessing tag creation as a privilege?
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 3, 2021 at 0:03
  • I've been thinking about this for a little while now, and I still can't come up with a good suggestion. Contributions as a whole are extremely subjective. Just because I ask a question once a month doesn't mean I'm using the site well or even that I'm a good contributor. And on the other hand, if I only answer a question once every 6 months, I could be an excellent contributor, if that question is golden each time.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 22:40
  • I think one of the benefits of our current rep-based system is that it has the effect of roughly evening out types of contribution, because rep gained roughly (and I do mean roughly) correlates with the community finding your contributions useful. Rewarding contributors with curation features is a principle SO has been built on essentially forever, and overall it works very well. I think the largest problems that occur with rep unlocking curation features comes with the fact that contributions don't always prepare someone to actually use the new tools/ features that are unlocked.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 4, 2021 at 22:49
2

I feel the pain the OP is going through I don't understand how the suggested solution would function in practice.

My experience is tags are created when asking a question. Some new python library called "Umai" comes out. I have a usage question about it. So tag my question and the new tag is created. It makes no sense to just tag it python. The odds of it finding people who can answer my question are extremely low. Where as if I tag it as there is at least some chance that users of this new library, or even the authors of this new library, will find my question.

So, how would I post my question about this new library in this "tags have to go through review first"? It sounds like at best I'd have to post the question without the new tag, ask for the new tag, then come back later if it's approved. That sounds like a poor workflow to me.

Further, I'd expect a popularity contest where curmudgeonly reviewers deny tags for any library they (a) haven't personally heard of, (b) don't feel is popular enough, (c) dislike because GOML.

I don't think this proposal would help the site. Adding new tags for new libraries, new languages, new service APIs, etc seems like a basic feature that should remain as it is. I'd suggest looking for other solutions.

Let me also add, the problem is ill defined. What tags are a problem? Looking at @ASh list of tags it doesn't appear there is a problem to me. All but one of those tags are tags I'd approve.

@ASh also complained about which looking through the 18 questions seems like a legit tag to me for at least 6 questions asking specifically about an API related to pokemon-go or programmatic interaction with the app. Another 4 seemed like the tag would help find an answerer leaving 8 where the tag was irrelevant. In my experience though that's not a judgement against the tag, it's just that people are bad at choosing relevant tags (not new tags, just tags period).

4
  • Curmudgeonly reviewers is one of my prime fears about this as well. Even if the rules of tag approval were designed to avoid it, I still fear that some reviews would do just as you describe, largely because I believe we see equivalent curmudgeonly behavior across other curation tools on the site. I think it would really harm the tag creation process, which could have a very significant effect, especially on newer libraries/ technologies/ etc.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 8, 2021 at 16:10
  • 1
    Can you define what "GOML" is?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2021 at 5:02
  • 1
    @CodyGray according to the Urban Dictionary it means: Get On My Level.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Feb 18, 2021 at 8:20
  • Do we need a [tag:goml]? Commented Jun 21, 2021 at 15:20
-70

No. No. No. No. No.

I like sites where power is given to the users. Stack Exchange is a great example. For the most part, if I want to post any of these:

  • Question
  • Answer
  • Comment

I can just do it. I don't have to go through some review process, I just type up what I want, and hit post. I love that power. Do some people abuse it? Yes. Do some people not bother to read the rules and post crap? Yes. But overall, I would argue it's the best system. Here are some other sites I use that have democratised content posting:

  • Wikipedia
  • Reddit
  • MusicBrainz

As you have noted, this comes at the cost of letting through some crap content. But to me it is very much worth it. In all four cases I have mentioned, using the democratic model has allowed communities and content to flourish where it might not have. Personally, MusicBrainz is a good example for me. Many people use Discogs instead, but with Discogs, you have to go through a review process to have content posted. Only "trusted" users can bypass that, and for years people have asked for concrete info in what makes a "trusted" user. Ultimately it's an arbitrary process. So for me, I like that I can go to MusicBrainz, and post an album that no one has ever posted before, and it just goes right up on the public site.

If you start putting up review processes to submit content, you are going to lose users.

9
  • 31
    This is not about posting questions, answers or comments. This answer seems misguided.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 15:41
  • 41
    No, I don't. It doesn't make sense. Tags are not "content", but meta-data. Also, one already needs 1500 reputation points to be able to create tags, but only 50 points to post comments, and no reputation to post what actually is considered "content" around here: posts. So the equivalence is lost on me. Maybe you should focus the answer more in what the question propose instead of going around mentioning things that are less relevant.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 15:48
  • 15
    Tags are used to group relevant content. They are not content themselves. Also I don't see how the proposal of a review-process would remove the "democratic" aspect from this site.
    – Lino
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 15:52
  • 20
    In fact the tag review process would make the site more democratic as more people have a say in which tags are created.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 17:39
  • 4
    I agree this answer on the reason that I do not see the minuscule, effectively invisible crap tag creation a problem. I believe, only the crap tags getting popularity should be handled. Community effort of mass edits ("burnination") could work, but it could be done better if there would be some automatism for that.
    – peterh
    Commented Feb 1, 2021 at 18:29
  • 4
    Requiring approval and review processes are not new things on SO. It applies to editing, closing, reopening, deleting and undeleting. But the most closely related would be the fact that users below 20k rep require approval to change tag wikis, and everyone (except mods) requires approval to create tag synonyms. Removing (burninating) a newly created tag also requires approval (although this isn't enforced through site mechanisms). Closure is also a review process for posting questions, even though it only happens after the fact. Commented Feb 2, 2021 at 12:49
  • 6
    Moderator Note: Please stop voting to delete this answer! It is a valid answer to the question. If you disagree with it, that's fine, but you should express your disagreement with a downvote, not a delete vote. Delete votes are not "super-downvotes". Do not abuse them as such, or there may be consequences involving the reduction of your privileges to cast them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2021 at 5:03
  • 1
    @CodyGray thanks. At this point its just a social experiment for me to see how low it can go 😀. It started out as a genuine answer, but everyone seems to hate it. Normally I would delete myself, but on Meta no rep hit, so it kind of I CAN FEEL YOU ANGA
    – Zombo
    Commented Feb 9, 2021 at 13:50
  • 5
    Unfortunately, you have a long way to go still before you hit the lowest-scored post on Meta record. :-) Yeah, we have a bit of an epidemic problem with certain users (a very small number; it's almost the same 5 or 10 names over and over again) abusing their delete votes on Meta as "super-downvotes". I think it's critical to be able to express different points of view, including the ability for the community to express disagreement with them via downvotes. I certainly delete answers (and encourage others to do so) when they're completely irrelevant gibberish, but... this ain't that.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2021 at 23:05

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