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As you may or may not understand already, my question is about the Needs More Focus close reason. I'm sure everyone with the close privilege are quite well familiar with it. Recently I was having some issues and second thoughts about it I would like to express.


Basically since I had the close privilege I would use the Needs More Focus close vote on questions that - well - need more focus. That's to say questions like (made up):

How can I write a program to print the current time

No code, no effort, no research. Basically just "Give me ze code!" type of questions. Same goes for questions with code, or in that case too much code. Questions like: "This is my code, what is wrong with it?". Again, in need of focus - but still asking a single question.

Only recently, I decided to actually pay attention to the close vote description rather than just the title (I understand that last remark might be a shot in the legs, but bear with me). The Needs More Focus states:

This question currently includes multiple questions in one. It should focus on one problem only.

Now, the above question doesn't really ask multiple questions. It asks a very specific question. The problem is that it's too general for the SO standards which dictates that you should include a clear, specific problem statement, along with a minimal reproducible example of your code. I found that for this kind of questions as above, the Needs debugging details reason is more suitable because it states:

The question should be updated to include desired behavior, a specific problem or error, and the shortest code necessary to reproduce the problem.

Now, after that long prelude (sorry), my personal problem is that I rarely encounter questions that actually have multiple questions in them. A lot more often I encounter "homework" questions or just too general ones. While recently I started closing those with the Needs debugging details because of the description, I feel that Needs More Focus is more appropriate title-wise (as there is a lot more missing in the question then just debugging details).

So my questions are (you might say this question needs more focus...haha):

  • Am I over-thinking this, and broad questions like the example above should be simply closed as Needs More Focus, as implicitly they are asking multiple questions (all the implied steps of solving the bigger problem)? My problem with that concept is that the description the OP sees might confuse them about how to fix the question.

  • Is the Needs More Focus close reason really necessary in its current form, as explicit multiple-questions-in-one are not really that common?

  • Should we alternatively modify the Needs More Focus description to better fit its title. I was thinking something in the lines of:

    This question is currently too broad. It should focus on one specific problem only, and provide a minimal reproducible example of a specific problem/error.

    I believe this is more suitable as now both multiple-questions-in-one AND too-general questions fit under this description.


Sorry again for the longevity, I am struggling with this for some time now and had to take it out :)

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  • 73
    eh, no, i don't think you're overthinking it. A change was made somewhat recently that rewrote all of these close reasons with the intent of making them easier for the people on the receiving end of them to understand them. "Needs more focus" used to be "Too Broad", and included a sub description that covered more than just "is asking multiple question", it also covered something along the lines of "a book could be written as an answer to this question" Effectively, the scope of the close reason was reduced, but only in explanation. It's still used for the latter, thus making it more unclear.
    – Kevin B
    Oct 30, 2020 at 17:01
  • 18
    I think you're making a mistake in assuming that all Questions need code. The "Needs debugging details" states "and the shortest code necessary to reproduce the problem" and your proposal seem to indicate code is needed too. While code may make it easier to understand a problem, nowhere in the help center does it say that code is required, except for debugging problems that goes hand in hand with "Needs debugging details" if something is missing.
    – Scratte
    Oct 30, 2020 at 17:05
  • 8
    I agree in general, that not all questions need code, but that shouldn't be taken as missing code is never a reason to close a question.
    – Kevin B
    Oct 30, 2020 at 17:07
  • 6
    "explicit multiple questions in one are not really that common?" it's actually not that uncommon. Some users (particularly new users) expect this site as a traditional forum instead and ask multiple unrelated things in a single question. Though, we veteran users are also used to the old description of "too broad" and regularly act based on it.
    – Andrew T.
    Oct 30, 2020 at 17:07
  • 5
    @AndrewT. This is what I did for a long time (choose needs more focus) for those type of questions. But lately got to the understanding that maybe the most important part of closing a question is holding off answers until the question is fixed appropriately. This means that the close vote description is one of the most important factors in this system. Newcomers struggle as it is to fit in the community. We should help them as much as possible by having the most accurate close reason AND description.
    – Tomerikoo
    Oct 30, 2020 at 17:12
  • 11
    If someone just asked a single question on something without proper details and get a close message saying "this question currently has multiple questions in it" - he wouldn't know what is really wrong and how to fix
    – Tomerikoo
    Oct 30, 2020 at 17:14
  • 4
    Needs details and/or clarity is now the better option for a question that is asking for way too much. though, if it's specifically debugging info/code that is needed, the more specific debugging info reason would better apply. a question that is asking for too much is simply missing information that would narrow the question own to something more specific/answerable.
    – Kevin B
    Oct 30, 2020 at 17:15
  • 7
    Incidentally, many questions "need more focus" because they "need more details or clarity" to narrow down the problem. It is currently really not clear whether the close reason should be interpreted historically ("too broad"), by its description ("includes multiple questions in one"), by its name ("needs more focus") or some other way – and especially if all the CV'ers and OP agree on a meaning. Oct 30, 2020 at 18:27
  • 4
    I watch a low visibility tag and generally am able to answer most questions there. I recently close-voted "needs more focus" something that I understood generally what they wanted to do, but there was no way to really guess what they knew, what would be wasted time on my part, etc. Classic example of this close reason. I think the idea is "if you are walking in a direction I can help you move forward, but if you haven't decided which way to go, I'm not going to answer all of your possible alternatives." Oct 31, 2020 at 5:58
  • 4
    The criteria description "improvement" eliminated "too broad". It's not clear that the actual criteria changed. The label "needs more focus" still captures the "too broad". (The idea being it phrases the problem in terms of an action addressing it.) The description was made poorer. Typical poor SO/SE documentation choice.
    – philipxy
    Oct 31, 2020 at 8:55
  • 8
    @Scratte While you're not wrong on paper, missing code is a very, very, very strong signal of a poor question on SO, be it because there's been no attempt by the OP at all, or because they just haven't bothered to show us what we need to help them. Valid questions without code do exist, particularly the more theoretical ones (e.g. questions about standard wording), though even those are often improved by code and a little suspicious without it. Oct 31, 2020 at 15:24
  • 9
    I was thinking about writing a similar post for some time. Situations where "This question currently includes multiple questions in one." indeed seem to be rare, and this close reason is apparently not the "Too broad" that I know and love. So I don't really understand how to close as "too broad" anymore. Also, "too broad" doesn't mean "includes multiple questions": "What is the purpose of life?" is one question, but it's definitely too broad.
    – ForceBru
    Oct 31, 2020 at 15:25
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    I really stopped caring about which close reason is more accurate and why. It's a mess. The text displayed after closing is also most of the times different from what people vote. It just doesn't make any sense. With the last close reasons rewording everything became unclear and confusing, after that there hasn't been a single day where I wasn't hesitant to choose one reason over another, until recently. Currently, I just don't care anymore. I only care that a question is closed regardless of the voted reason, and I leave a comment if I feel the need to explain to OP why. Nov 1, 2020 at 13:03
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    @MarcoBonelli I completely understand your frustration and agree. Despite posting this question, I tend to comment anyway on questions I close, to help the OP... I just find it a little sad that the system is "broken" like that and we need to beg for it fixed. The description should match (mostly) to the blue close-message up top so closers can find the best close reason and askers will get the most informative message regarding the flaws in their question
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 1, 2020 at 13:10
  • 3
    @Tomerikoo couldn't agree more. Sadly, this is what we came to. Nov 1, 2020 at 13:21

3 Answers 3

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I too have been a bit disoriented by the changes made to the close-vote prompt. It used to have "Unclear" and "Too broad" (paraphrasing), and now it has "Needs details or clarity" and "Needs more focus". I have struggled to adjust my habits to accommodate the change, one that from my point of view was made without any clear explanation to the community nor guidance for what the intent behind the changes were made (I do recall a vaguely-stated premise of "make the closing clearer", but nothing that explained in a manner useful to me how this was supposed to accomplish this).

At first, my reflexes just led me to click in the same spot I used to, treating the options as synonyms for the options that had been in the same position previously. But over time, I've adjusted. Posts that literally have more than one question (and these come up more often than you might realize), I use the "Needs more focus", taking the description literally.

For questions that I would have previously voted as "Too broad" but which have only a single question, I now close as "Needs details or clarity". My justification for this is that a question that is too broad in a sense other than "more than one question", is too broad because it fails to explain things like (to name a few things):

  1. What the author of the question has tried already.
  2. What readily-available solutions don't work in their case.
  3. What specific part of the problem they need help with.

I don't recall the exact wording of the old "Too broad" prompt's description, but I do recall that it was always a bit vague, and also included wording that implied more than one question was asked. So in that sense, the new prompt does seem better to me, in that it makes painfully clear that I shouldn't use "Needs more focus" if there's only one stated question.

In many cases, I find it helpful to post a comment explaining the vote more clearly. I.e. describe the details that the author should provide. This very often includes something along the lines of "What have you tried? What specifically do you need help with?".

Regarding your explicitly-stated questions:

Am I over-thinking this, and broad questions like the example above should be simply closed as Needs More Focus as implicitly they are asking multiple questions (basically all the steps of solving their problem)? My problem with that is the description the OP sees, which might confuse them as to how to fix the question.

No, you're not over-thinking this. It's important to provide as precise feedback as we can when a question is closed. Most authors of poorly-presented questions will never take the time to fix their questions adequately, but it shouldn't take much work to give them the information they need to do so, so that the few who will, can do that.

Is the Needs More Focus close reason really necessary as it is right now as explicit multiple questions in one are not really that common?

Such questions are in the minority, granted. But I still use that reason often enough that it seems justified. More to the point, that close reason is distinctly different from the others, and so seems worth retaining as an option. To the extent that the old "Too broad" option may always have been intended to apply only to posts with multiple questions, it must have enough value to have survived the recent update in the prompt (I don't know whether it was always intended this way, but it seems plausible, given the old description and the new prompt).

Should we alternatively modify the Needs More Focus description to better fit its title. I was thinking something in the lines of:

This question is currently too broad. It should focus on one specific problem only, and provide a minimal reproducible example of a specific problem/error.

I believe this is more suitable as now both multiple-questions-in-one AND too-general questions fit under this description.

Given that "Needs details or clarity" adequately addresses a question that is too broad while still being only a single question, no…I don't think we need to modify the description of the "Needs more focus" option. We should just use the "Needs details or clarity" option for those questions.

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  • They are still synonyms to me. Needs clarity equals unclear and needs focus equals too broad. Nothing has changed really. The descriptions could be a bit better though. Nov 1, 2020 at 12:14
  • 3
    Pretty sure "What have you tried?" is disallowed by the system as a comment, because "unwelcoming" (aka: BS).
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 13:24
  • 1
    @IanKemp I do not think that is the reason. It seems to me the reason is that it's mostly left there with no intention to be helpful. See Shog9's Answer to “What have you tried” epidemic
    – Scratte
    Nov 2, 2020 at 13:29
  • 1
    @Scratte The anti-unwelcoming push began long before it was explicitly codified as such. I often find myself writing "What have you tried? Edit that information into your question." because that's (IMO) the simplest way to encourage people to fix their bad questions, and of course, the system denies me the ability to post that as a comment - so I end up downvoting and VTC'ing instead, and the question dies instead of maybe turning into something answerable. Discouraging attempts to help users is the exact example of welcoming!
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 13:53
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    Further, in 2013 we didn't have the "unfriendly or unkind" comment flag. I believe usage of that flag, as well as the Unfriendly Robot, should supersede any sort of need for prefiltering of comment content. (Yes, you could well argue "adjust your language". But "What have you tried?" is IMO the simplest, most straightforward, and therefore most likely to be understood - especially by askers who are non-native English speakers.)
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 13:57
  • 1
    @IanKemp There's another way of doing that. One can post a comment saying what to improve and that adding details will help users find a solution. Posting "What have you tried?" isn't needed for that. Giving the impression that one is commenting to help the author doesn't cost anything. It may even lower one's blood pressure :) The "What have you tried" comments can be seen as "You obviously didn't try anything".. while that may not be the correct interpretation, I wouldn't discount it.
    – Scratte
    Nov 2, 2020 at 13:57
  • It seems that I'm wrong - as long as there is non-whitespace content after "What have you tried?", the system permits it. I'd swear it didn't used to work like that. But that also means that getting around the block is trivial, you just include another character: "What have you tried?." (notice the included period). So ultimately it's an extremely easy measure to defeat.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 14:08
  • 1
    @Scratte The intention, at least from me (I cannot speak for others who post that comment) is to get the asker to think about what they've tried, which will hopefully lead them to the realisation that they should probably edit that into the question. But yes, being more specific is also more helpful - a canned comment that anyone could auto-post under a question, saying something along the lines of "detail is missing, please provide an MRE" would be infinitely more helpful for both askers and curators, I think.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 14:12
  • @IanKemp: "getting around the block is trivial" -- for what it's worth, I don't ever make that statement as my sole feedback. I never have to make any sort of effort to "get around the block". But finding out from a poster what they tried is often a key aspect of comprehending the question; in many cases, there are multiple possible approaches, but some may be contraindicated or even outright impossible given other context not presently in the question. Knowing what was tried will lead to the additional context needed to understand things like that, and more. Nov 2, 2020 at 17:19
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That made-up question does not need more focus. It shows a lack of effort, absolutely, but that means you should downvote it, not vote to close it.

Assuming it's about Python (which I see you active on a lot), the answer is very straightforward:

Use datetime.datetime.now():

import datetime
print(datetime.datetime.now())  # -> 2020-10-31 15:41:52.430008

Note that this is local-time, and timezone-unaware.

However, it's already been asked before: How to get the current time in Python. Plus the answers go into much more depth, e.g. Aaron Hall's. So you should vote to close it as a duplicate, in addition to downvoting.

I think your underlying misconception is that all questions are debugging questions. (I've been guilty of thinking like this myself.) In fact, questions asking "how to do X" don't require any code, but it does help a lot and shows that they've put in some effort, and IMHO, example inputs and desired outputs should be required for anything even a little bit complicated.

See also: Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?

Necessity

Is the Needs More Focus close reason really necessary as it is right now as explicit multiple questions in one are not really that common?

I don't have hard numbers, but looking at questions I've voted to close recently, they're pretty rare, but not nonexistent. Here are two examples - not mine:

Multiple questions in one

How to assign certain amount of variables from the string of a file [python]

Update: This question has now been clarified, but see revision 1 for what I'm talking about.

Assuming OP needs help with everything (it's not clear), there are at least 4 different parts to this question:

  1. Read an int N from a file
  2. Read N more lines from the file
  3. Convert each line into variables
  4. Apply an algorithm to the variables

(I don't want to pick on that question in particular, it's just the first one I found.)

Too broad

What does Ruby have that Python doesn't, and vice versa?

Description

Should we alternatively modify the Needs More Focus description to better fit its title?

I've always considered it identical to the old "Too broad" close reason, even though some detail was removed from the text, and I think others agree, based on the comments under the question. So I agree it should be clarified, but like I said, code is not required, so maybe something like this:

This question currently includes multiple questions in one, or is too broad in its scope. It should focus on one specific problem only.

Although, the info the asker sees is better:

Closed. This question needs to be more focused. It is not currently accepting answers.


Update the question so it focuses on one problem only. This will help others answer the question.

And the linked help page says:

  • Needs more focus - if your question has many valid answers (but no way to determine which - if any - are correct), then it probably needs to be more focused to be successful in our format.

This question currently includes multiple questions in one. It should focus on one problem only.

This can often be fixed by breaking the question into multiple questions or focusing on a specific part of the problem.

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    I appreciate that, technically, zero-effort questions are allowed. Partly this is a historical anomaly - when SO was new, posting anything at all was welcomed, in order to draw in expert users. There are also unasked questions in new technologies - "silly" questions in GoLang are forgiven more than they are in PHP, since the former has much less existing material available.
    – halfer
    Nov 1, 2020 at 16:40
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    However, I still think that it is legitimate for experienced close-voters to close due to a lack of effort, and that it is a stretch to call this an abuse of the close reason. Some question authors are just help vampires, and they are very good at getting other people to do their work for them. That is a drain of finite volunteer time that we need to be aware of, even if some of their questions may be considered useful.
    – halfer
    Nov 1, 2020 at 16:41
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    @halfer if some of their questions may be considered useful, then why do we need to close them?
    – wjandrea
    Nov 1, 2020 at 23:01
  • I guess there's a balance to be struck - useful questions are useful to a point, but not infinitely so. If a question author has a long history of abusing the time of volunteers, but in so doing asks something that might be useful in the future, I don't mind if it is closed, if that might dissuade the author from asking several hundred future free-work questions.
    – halfer
    Nov 2, 2020 at 0:09
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    I'd argue also there is a minimum quality filter we ought to apply to questions these days that we could not demand ten years ago. Back then, the rule was nearly "anything goes". Now, if someone asks a lazy one-liner which they could have done some basic research on, then it can be closed - it's probably a stretch to call the question useful, but the answers might have been. Nevertheless, it's no major loss, since someone can ask it again, with a modicum of effort/research.
    – halfer
    Nov 2, 2020 at 0:11
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    @halfer: I find I have a hard time deciding where to draw the line on deciding that nobody should ever answer this question, if it's clear but trivial. I'll certainly downvote, and if I can find a duplicate that's good enough to point them in the right direction with some effort on their part then I'll dup-hammer. The lazier / worse the question (e.g. an FAQ), the looser my standards are for dup-closing. But if a search doesn't turn up anything, then I often won't close even if it's something I think every programmer should already know or be able to reason out from first principles. Nov 2, 2020 at 7:55
  • @halfer: In lower-traffic tags like [assembly] and [cpu-architecture], boring bad negative-score questions often don't get quick answers, so no need to close them to shut down the help vampires. Especially basic math word problems like Amdahl's law speedups or cache sizes given some parameters often go unanswered. They're usually going to be completely useless to future readers, but often no close reason I can really justify. Fortunately downvoting is enough to mostly stop other answerers from wasting their time on it if they're not really interested for such questions. Nov 2, 2020 at 7:59
  • 1
    @halfer the truth is, “needs more focus” is just a substitute for “OP must show a minimal understanding of the topic” that was an actual close reason in the past. It’s the new site owner’s policy that we should answer just any crap, so they can sell more ads, but those users who didn’t leave SO yet, are reluctant to turn it into another Ask Yahoo, so they will continue to close such questions, using whatever close reason the form will still allow.
    – Holger
    Nov 2, 2020 at 8:14
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    I feel like I might have made a mistake with my example in the question but feel it is a bit late to change it (because of the discussion evolved). Of course, this specific question I would close as a duplicate. I tried to give an example of the type of questions. I also feel the no-code was taken too strong (also in the comments). To me, a question with alot of code asking "what is wrong with my code?" also needs more focus in the "too broad" sense
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 2, 2020 at 8:28
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    You do raise another important point (should I say problem?) about the inconsistency between cloe-reasons and actual close-messages. To me, at least, there is a big importance to that as I said in previous comments the idea of closing a question is to hold-off answers until the OP fixes their question. The close-message is the first indicator to them about what is wrong, hence the whole system of choosing this message by the community should be well-oiled.
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 2, 2020 at 8:31
  • @wjandrea I edited a bit to try and better convey the kind of questions I meant without changing too much and invalidating your answer (and other discussions)
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 2, 2020 at 17:01
3

Welcome to Stack Overflow, where the points are made up and the question close reasons don't matter.

The reason they don't matter is that all of them end up casting a close vote on a question. And when the number of close votes on a question meets or exceeds 3 (previously 5), that question is closed. The type of the close votes don't matter (unless the majority are dupes, in which case the closed question gets a nice link to the dupe target).

So why does the close dialog have so many different options that do the same thing? To make you reconsider before voting to close a question. To prevent you from voting to close based on malice, or spite, or a reason that's outside those encapsulated on that dialog.

Except... the Vote To Close privilege is awarded at 3,000 reputation. I'd expect that everyone who has got that much rep is somewhat responsible with their close votes, so they won't VTC for the wrong reasons. And if they aren't... who is going to know or care? If you're able to VTC and you only ever do it with a single reason (maybe because you have a userscript), what does it matter? A question still requires 2 other close votes, so two other people will still have to agree with you.

Ideally the close dialog would be updated to reflect the reality of only 2 options (dupe with link, everything else) but Stack Exchange Inc. seems intent on forcing us to jump through unnecessary hoops for eternity. Until then, be considerate of which close reason you choose, but don't think too hard about it.

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  • 3
    Well I hear your last suggestion, and I agree that in a way, if a question should be closed - the important thing is that it gets closed no matter the reasons. But I don't fully agree with that. It is a known fact that many new users struggle to fit in and bad questions are posted daily by the hundreds (at least). I believe the close reason do play an important role in notifying the OP what they did wrong and how they can fix it. True, we can always leave a comment (I usually do), but then again as you said, why bother with so many close-reasons to choose from?
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 2, 2020 at 13:51
  • 1
    For me, user feedback is not as important today as it was half a decade ago. Back then, you could reasonably expect that a user would come back to their question and fix it, and get it reopened. Nowadays, most questions that get closed are posted by one-question-wonders (users who create an account to post a single question, then never interact with Stack Overflow again), and/or are completely unfixable, and/or won't even get reopened if they are fixed (see meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/402422/…).
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 14:01
  • (cont'd) Plus, there's the standard problem that users don't read, which all adds up to my opinion that telling a user why their question is closed after the fact seems mostly worthless. If they properly understood the rules of asking questions here, they wouldn't have asked a question that got closed, so it's far more useful to concentrate effort on prevention, rather than cure. (But fixing the onboarding process for users is a completely different can of worms.)
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 14:03
  • 1
    Regarding your first comment (and linked meta), my personal small contribution is almost always when downvoting/VTC a question, I follow it. When/if it is fixed, I get a notification and if it's satisfactory, I will reopen. You would expect that my inbox would explode, but indeed as you said, even with my 88 followed posts, I barely get such notifications. To your second comment, I do hate seeing bad questions starting to get answers and agree that a deserving question should be closed no matter the reason...
    – Tomerikoo
    Nov 2, 2020 at 14:11
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    @Tomerikoo You're going above and beyond to try to give questions a second chance, and that's appreciated. But it's also something that not everyone (including myself) is willing to do. Ultimately, if we didn't really have to worry about reopening questions - because so few got closed, because most posted conformed to the rules for asking, because users understood the rules for asking - then I think a lot more people would be willing to sign up to be auto-notified for question reopening. Sigh... so many problems that could be solved just by fixing one damn thing...
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2020 at 14:15

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