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I received a four-day suspension for accepting a suggested edit that capitalized all instances of the pronoun "I", which were previously lowercase.

The suspension notice reads:

You approved poor edits to this post suggested-edits/27386987, which should have been rejected. Please pay more attention to each review in future. Being suspended can be a frustrating experience, but your help in moderation is still important. In the meantime, you can refer to What are the review queues, and how do they work? for more information, and revisit your recent reviews to see if you could have taken a different action instead.

The edit was accepted as approved the same day I reviewed it, but then I received a suspension the following day for suggesting the edit be accepted.

This is my first suspension that I'm aware of. Is there something about this I'm not understanding? It seems like this is in error and I shouldn't have been suspended.


Edit: The answers and comments so far have provided good feedback about why approving this particular edit may have been seen as punishable behavior by a moderator.

However, the instructions given to reviewers are as follows:

  • Approve edits that clearly improve the post
  • Improve Edit when you can make additional improvements to the post
  • Reject and Edit to replace an ineffective edit with your own substantive changes
  • Reject edits that fail to improve the post or that make it worse
  • Skip if you are not sure and want to go to the next suggested edit

Editing a post to correct repetitively bad grammar is a clear and substantive improvement to a post.

Nowhere in the in-queue instructions does it state that—as a rule—an edit should "fix everything in the post" as @bad_coder interprets the help docs as suggesting. Nor do the instructions state that edits to closed questions must improve the question enough to make it re-openable, as Alexei details in their own personal guidelines for edits (although it's a reasonable requirement and I can understand moderators sharing this view).

I've encountered several unwritten rules like this over my years of contributions to SO. Each time it's frustrating as a user. I think either more work needs to go into making the instructions and guidance for users reflect the accepted norms moderators are enforcing, or more oversight or reminders need to be in place so that moderators consistently enforce the guidelines provided to users. As someone who reads instructions, I shouldn't have to be given a suspension and then ask a post on Meta to learn the secret proper way to fulfill my role as a contributor.

Should the instructions for the edit review queue be revised to provide more guidance?


A note for future contributors: Answers should primarily address the question "should the instructions be improved". The question is not "should this edit have been accepted".

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  • 34
    The question was closed, and the suggested edit did not make the question re-openable, so approving such an edit (which is also trivial) bumps it into the reopen queue, resulting in more pain for reviewers who have to keep the question closed. But the site UI doesn't make this recommended course of action clear. Doubtful that suspension is warranted, though. Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 1:26
  • 3
    On top of what @CertainPerformance said, that particular question (which asks, with no detail, how to build a web app using JavaScript) is also completely unsalvageable. No amount of editing can fix it, and that edit doesn't even attempt to fix anything meaningful, just capitalizes some "i"s and fixes a mistake in the Markdown usage. A script could have made a more useful edit, because it doesn't even fix all the capitalization issues: JavaScript is still lowercase. All of that said: the guidance on approving trivial improvements is unclear, and edits sending posts to reopen review is bad.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 3:20
  • 21
    That suggested edit might be considered as turd-polishing...
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 3:27
  • 4
    I would like to add the fact, review suspensions, are rarely over the first mistake. Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 3:35
  • 3
    Also note that only the first edit of a closed post sends it to the reopen review queue (that includes edits that are made before the post is closed but approved after it's closed). So if you make or approve such an edit you are robbing the OP of their chance to fix it before it gets reviewed. Of course, in this particular case the OP is highly unlikely to edit the post into an acceptable state, and performing cosmetic edits on it is just wasting the time & energy of the editor, the people in the edit approval queue, and the people in the reopen review queue.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 4:50
  • 3
    What about the help entry for edits, where it says "Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged - try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe."? Someone who review suggested edits is supposedly familiarized with what a good edit is, right?
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 13:32
  • 3
    Your edit to the question invalidated the existing answers. That's not polite to do. Better post a new question.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 13:40
  • 13
    "As someone who reads instructions, I shouldn't have to be given a suspension and then ask a post on Meta to learn the secret proper way to fulfill my role as a contributor." Whole-heartedly agree. I don't think you did anything overtly wrong here based on the guidance you were given, and in light of the fact that you were careful to follow those directions you read, and were still penalized, it sure seems clear that there's some kind of disconnect to address in the system here.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 14:56
  • 3
    Without reading anything else I already know the answer to the question in the title is "Yes". Review queues have huge scope for improvement in so many ways. Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 15:25
  • 13
    These unofficial rules are hacks put in by reviewers to make up for a very flawed system. In theory the official rules are fine, something else (e.g,. the whole suggested edit system) needs fixing. Contributors that want to help should be able to suggest any useful edit (no matter how minor or major) as they want, regardless of rep, considering how much stuff needs fixing on this site that nobody's ever coming back to. I'm not saying that's the system we have right now, but it's the system we should have. Frankly I personally am not interested in playing games with robo-reviewers anymore.
    – jrh
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 16:54
  • 9
    There's a danger that the enforcement is fixing the wrong problem. An edit made in good faith seems to have caused difficulties because the question was closed. Was the person who suggested the edit penalized? If not, why not? If different rules apply to questions that are closed, can we ensure that editors and reviewers are clearly instructed to follow those rules? Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 18:22
  • 5
    You can refer to this answer of mine on how and which edits push a question into the reopen queue automatically. The problem here was, at least if I were a reviewer, that accepting this edit would rob the OP of the chance to edit their post to be on-topic and get it into the reopen queue. This is not only a point of failure of the guidance in the edit review queue, but also in how posts get into the reopen queue.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 19:45
  • 7
    A lot of responses here fall back on, "Well, editing a closed question puts it on the reopen queue, so approving the edit triggered headaches for other reviewers." But... why? Why does any edit send a post to the reopen queue? Because it's assumed any edit will make the post reopenable. Why is an edit assumed to make the post reopenable? Well, because any edit sends the post to the reopen queue. That feels like awfully circular logic, though I can't be 100% sure because I'm pretty dizzy from all the circular logic.
    – FeRD
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 8:47
  • 10
    And without a big, flashing warning to that effect next to the "approve" button for edits on closed posts, the explanation for this feels a little like, "Your approval triggered a trap built into the review system, so now we have to give you a time out so you'll learn not to set off traps in the future, because setting off traps is bad and we want to be sure everyone knows where these hidden traps are and how to avoid them." I mean... I guess it's a system.
    – FeRD
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 8:51
  • 2
    @SecurityHound That's not relevant to this question, though. I shouldn't have been suspended in the first place, but now this suspension will make it more likely for me to receive future suspensions, which may also be unwarranted.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 30, 2020 at 17:55

5 Answers 5

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I would have rejected it for the reason indicated in @CertainPerformance's excellent comment (quoted in full below, since comments are transient):

The question was closed, and the suggested edit did not make the question re-openable, so approving such an edit (which is also trivial) bumps it into the reopen queue, resulting in more pain for reviewers who have to keep the question closed. But the site UI doesn't make this recommended course of action clear. Doubtful that suspension is warranted, though.

I would add, though, that I really don't see how this particular question could possibly be salvaged through any edit without completely changing the question (which isn't permitted in this case because that would invalidate the answer). That being said, editing questions like that at all is a waste of time - they should be closed and deleted (or allowed to Roomba). Approving edits on them would just send them to the reopen queue, which would waste even more time on a question that simply can't be salvaged.

That being said, I agree that the UI is poor in this case. It isn't at all clear when you should (and shouldn't) approve reviews, and that information isn't really all that clear from the Help Center. You almost have to dig through Meta for that.

I'd definitely suggest improving the UI, as well as adding information to the help center and/or adding this to the FAQ so that there's clearer guidance for reviewers on this point.

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The editing spirit roughly is: "make content that should stay on the site better".

My rules for edits:

  • Open, good question -> any edits that make question a bit better
  • Open, low quality question -> edits that make question at least readable (i.e. fixing totally bogus code formatting) are ok, ideally should be done by someone with more than 2,000 reputation, as their edits do not have to be reviewed, or edits that make question a good question (also such edits would be generally too drastic and should not be approved, OP can still approve).
  • Closed questions -> edit must make question re-openable.

The edit in question is definitely not making that low quality post significantly more readable (I have yet to see a person who can't read text with lowercase "i"), does not fix all problems with the post (pretty much everything in the post is fluff and should be removed - "I have tried searching on the web" is never useful without details, bold probably should go and some empty lines could help) and finally the edit did not make the closed question re-openable. Approving such edits sends a wrong signal to the editor: that such partial edits are welcome on the site.

I believe that the short suspension did exactly what it is designed for; it made you reflect on the decision and ask for clarifications on meta.

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  • 1
    Thanks for your response. I've modified the question and I'm curious to get your thoughts.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 12:58
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It's fact the post was unsalvageable and should have been closed.

If a single orthographic error is systematically repeated—not capitalizing the first person personal pronoun "i" several times—that is enough reason to edit.

However the above is still subject to the stronger rule for making or approving an edit: That the edit fixes everything in the post.

Besides that, the edit did not consistently stylize the word "JavaScript" you can see it written with different capitalization and wrong stylizing in the post. The two paragraphs should also have a blank line between them (the prevalent formatting choice.)

In this scenario you aren't doing the editor any favors by approving their suggestion. Their work wasn't substantial, approving the edit will encourage continued poor practices, and they will lose the +2 rep when the post eventually gets deleted...

EDIT:

The original post has been elaborated on, so I'll extend my answer by pointing out the official guidelines given from https://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/edit

When should I edit posts?

Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged - try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe.

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    I'm sure this answer simply tries to shed light on the rules/operation of the site, but rejecting someone's work - where there is no issue with said work - because the volunteer contributor could have worked more is a great way to lose contributors once they understand how the site treats them.
    – D. SM
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 4:54
  • @D.SM I did not say that, if I see a suggested edit that needs improvement I will improve it. That way if the user who suggested the edit cares to notice he'll be shown what should have been done. I'll reject a suggestion that I improve only if it introduces serious mistakes or is extreme low effort (eg under 1 minute) compared to what was actually needed to overhaul the post.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 5:00
  • I understand, my comment was aimed at the way the site operates (or is managed by the people in charge) in general.
    – D. SM
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 5:07
  • Thanks for your response. I've modified the question and I'm curious to get your thoughts.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 12:58
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    @D.SM What about the volunteer contributors who review those suggested edits? Is their time not appreciated? Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 13:01
  • 9
    @HereticMonkey apparently not, since I was suspended for following instructions by accepting an edit that made improvements.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 13:03
  • @bad_coder I appreciate your edit. If the review queue instructions linked to that page, that would be a minor improvement. However these guidelines state that editors should try to correct all problems—not that they must. And this is not included in the instructions at all.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 15:49
  • @Sean you miss quoted me, a guideline is in a way a rule (that much for the semantics). You quoted me as saying "must", I did not use that word! I said there's a stronger rule that holds over the other rules (or guidelines if you prefer) in page I linked. Rest assured I chose my words carefully, because otherwise people would be giving me a hard time. That being said, I really would appreciate you edit out the miss quote that's attributed to me.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 15:56
  • Thanks for clarifying. I interpret a "rule" as something you "must" do, which is where that came from. I'll edit.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 15:58
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    "Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged - try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe." Try to observe everything! because otherwise you could get a suspension Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 18:25
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    @TimRandall that comment makes me want to stop contributing to review queues altogether.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 13:38
  • 2
    @Sean There is no shame in not reviewing. If you feel it's discouraging, then just ask: Does it make me happy?
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 13:44
  • 1
    @Scratte The point is that SO's quality relies on reviewers. If this is the experience they're met with, others will likely be discouraged too, degrading SO's quality. It's not about me personally.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 13:53
  • @Sean I understand. But if you are not happy with the way things have turned out, will you be happier by continuing? And if you do, will it change anything? If you believe the instructions are misleading, you can surely work with your now revised understanding of the instructions. But there are a lot of reviewers. I'd prefer them to do it because they enjoy it. Not because the feel they have to.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 14:25
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First of all, as a general edit, I probably wouldn't accept it as it doesn't make the question significantly better or more readable. The de-capitalized is might seem annoying (or even hurt) some sensitive eyes or some OCD people (like me ;D), but to me this is not a good enough excuse to bump the question up or "waste" reviewers attention. More importantly, it tells the editor that they did good (they even gets 2 rep points...) and encourages them to keep posting such edits. The help page does give enough pointers not to propose nor accept such edits:

  • Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged - try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe.

  • Editing a post also bumps the question to the top of the homepage. Please be mindful of this and make your edits count, so that the new attention is brought to something substantial.

* emphasis mine


Second, there is the closed question issue. Here there are two problems:

  1. There is nothing in the help page that states what happens when you edit a closed question or advises against it. There should be at least some mentioning about being thrown to the re-open queue under the What happens when I edit a post? section. It should also indicate that edits should be proposed and approved on closed questions only if they make the question re-openable. I doubt that anyone except the OP can do that, but that's not the issue right now. I (really) hope that you would agree that this suggested edit does not make this question re-openable in any way.

  2. Even if there was all that guidance, and let's say you now know better not to accept such edits on closed question - you're faced here with a title-edit, which reveals the closed” does not show up in the edit review of a closed question if the title itself was edited bug. This leads to frustrating situations (like this one...) and I hope will be taken care of by SE. Until then, try to gather some "clues": The question had many down-votes, there was not even a code-block in the question - seems odd. Give a quick-peek inside the question itself, maybe you'll find out that it is already closed - just reject and avoid frustration.

In my opinion, some acceptable edits should be rejected if the question is actually closed. This should first be indicated in the relevant help pages, and the bug described above should be fixed for reviewers to actually be aware of the fact that the question is clsoed.


In conclusion:

  • There is enough guidance in the help center not to accept this specific edit.
  • There is not enough guidance in the help center for how to edit or review a closed question.
  • Even if there was enough guidance, in case that the title was edited - you wouldn't know that the question at hand is actually closed.
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  • There is not enough guidance in the Help Center to tell users not to accept this specific edit. And a repository of information in the Help Center shouldn't take the place of adequate UI instructions.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 12:53
  • Aren't the two bullets above enough to ignore such edit (at the very least skip it if you don't want to be the one rejecting)? And also you can't stuff the whole help center inside UI instructions...
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 12:57
  • No, those are instructions for editors, not reviewers.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 12:58
  • Those are basically the same... You review according to the guidelines of how posts should be edited
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 12:59
  • They're not the same. And correcting all spelling and style errors in a post is a significant improvement and should be encouraged.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 13:02
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Nor do the instructions state that edits to closed questions must improve the question enough to make it re-openable, as Alexei details in their own personal guidelines for edits (although it's a reasonable requirement and I can understand moderators sharing this view).

This isn't a moderator view, it's just common sense. If a question is closed, why would anyone ever want to edit it for any other reason than to bring it up to level of quality to justify its reopening?

Now, the edit would definitely have improved that question's quality. The problem is its quality is so intrinsically low that no amount of editing will ever make it a candidate for reopening. It is, to be blunt, an utter turd, and the edit in question would have been polishing it.

That in and of itself is not really an issue, the problem is that such turd-polishing pushes the edited question into the edit review queue, where other users have to approve or decline that edit. Everybody who sees that edit should immediately decline it as an obvious case of turd-polishing, which means the edit will be rejected.

So not only has this useless edit now been rejected, other users have had to spend valuable time reviewing it. Their time has been wasted when they could have been doing other, more useful things. In other words, this "useless" edit is actually not just useless, but harmful.

In summary, your inability to distinguish a question that is beyond redemption, plus being happy to allow an edit that is actively harmful, is why you got a ban.

Should the instructions for the edit review queue be revised to provide more guidance?

Abso-fricking-lutely.

I've added the tag to this question to hopefully bring it to the attention of SE Inc. staff. They are intending to roll out an updated review queue experience in December (see The Loop, Q4 2020) so perhaps they will see this feedback and incorporate it.

But given that getting Stack Exchange Inc. to make any sort of update to even static text, is like squeezing blood from a stone... I wouldn't hold out too much hope. That's the primary reason why much of the knowledge exists on Meta and in the minds of SO's curators - not because we're intentionally hoarding it, but because getting it formally codified simply isn't an option we have.

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    On the other hand we often land on useful questions, that are closed because they are duplicates, or for other reasons. Should all the readers have to see a poorly formatted question just because it fits a close reason? If the question doesn't get any views, then yes, leave it alone, but if it is still being used, I would prefer edits to be allowed.
    – user000001
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 13:01
  • @user000001 You are talking about the 1% situation. The one that the asker encountered, and I am talking about, is the 99%. Please don't derail the general case with discussion about the special case.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 13:25
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    "In summary, your inability to distinguish a question that is beyond redemption, plus being happy to allow an edit that is actively harmful, is why you got a ban." It's not an "inability" to do so, Ian. Reviewers aren't asked to make that distinction. I'm perfectly capable of distinguishing which edits make a question re-openable. And I wasn't "happy" to allow a harmful edit. I was unaware that approving it would bump it into another queue. How would I have known that? Moderators shouldn't punish users for following directions because that direction-following makes more work for them.
    – Sean
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 13:50
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    How do you know that duplicates only cover 1%? If could be that 75% of closed post that remain on the site are in fact duplicates. I don't have any numbers, but from recollection, I think my close flags for duplicates are about 10%. I agree that editing closed post isn't very productive in general, but have you noticed that Stack Inc put a huge edit button on all closed post?
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 14:40
  • @Scratte: Not only that, but it doesn't matter if it's 1% of the questions, what matters is the percentage of views that are affected by this.
    – user000001
    Commented Oct 23, 2020 at 14:48

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