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So here's a systemic problem I've noticed for a while: tags without active moderators are generally much worse than tags that do have active moderators.

A lot of the "unwelcoming" atmosphere on Stack Overflow isn't with people being obviously insulting ("you're stupid!"), it's with people being consistently not-quite-over-the-line unfriendly, such as being condescending, overly pedantic, or other off-putting comments. If they happen on every other question, then there's a systemic problem.

The tag where I want to post questions in has a lot of great people, but also a few (about 3 or 4) people who consistently behave, quite frankly, just terrible. Off-putting comments are abound, and perfectly on-topic and valid questions get downvoted and closed for no reasons that align with Stack Overflow's guidance on what makes a question off-topic.

The entire experience in the tag would be completely different without those few people. I've seen it happen with another tag where just a single user was suspended for a week after being an a-hole for years, and the entire experience in that tag was changed almost overnight since they decided to Leave And Never Come Back Again.

Something like the Python tag has a few great moderators who will quickly spot repeat offenders and take action. My experience in the Python tag has been great; of course there are the occasional people who misbehave, but generally speaking posting a question in the Python tag is pretty "safe".

But for some other tags – even fairly popular ones – I have a rather different experience. It sometimes feels more like Reddit than Stack Overflow, which is not a compliment in this case. I can (and do) flag comments, but it feels like pissing in the wind. There's no obvious way to flag a clearly erroneous question closure. I can use a custom flag, but it's all very limited and there's no way for a moderator to follow up with me asking for details or the like. There is, if I recall correctly, no option in the moderator tooling to see "who got flagged the most in such-and-such tag".

I think this is also why smaller sites that overlap with Stack Overflow tend to be much friendlier and more constructive, because the moderators there end up seeing most content, and are able to take action against these kind of repeat offenders.


The last time I saw a very much on-topic interesting question I wanted to answer it was downvoted and closed because it's "not suitable for this site" (that's the reason the timeline gives me, anyway). I ended up just writing the answer on my website; a post that did fairly well in the community by the way. I guess good for me? But clearly that's not how Stack Overflow is intended to work.

The time before that the same happened: a perfectly reasonable question for downvoted to -4 because ... who knows? The answer didn't show up in any Google results and was pretty non-obvious. I did end up answering it, and now the answer is now on top of the Google results. I managed to get the "lifeboat" tag out of it, so again, guess good for me? But also clearly not how Stack Overflow is supposed to work. This is exactly the sort of "library of knowledge" stuff that Stack Overflow is intended to build, but it doesn't work if people (ab)use the system.

This doesn't just drive away people wanting to ask questions, it drives away people wanting to answer questions as well. I just stopped answering questions because it's too frustrating of an experience for me. I see people being belittled all the time, I see people being condescending all the time, and I see valid answers being downvoted and closed. Even as an observer that's a profoundly negative experience, and decided my life would be better without it. Quite a few people I've talked to about this share my feelings about this tag.

I think this is a systemic issue with Stack Overflow's moderation system that has existed for a long time.

I'm not 100% sure what a good solution to any of these items are. I appreciate there's a scaling problem here, but the way moderation has worked on Stack Overflow has essentially been unchanged for a decade, and I think it's time to start thinking on how it can be tweaked to better cover all of the site. Paying a bit more attention to tag coverage when choosing moderators might help, although I'm not sure how that would work with elections. Better moderator tooling would certainly help too, although I'm not sure if tooling is really a substitute for "boots on the ground".

Note: I avoided mentioning the specific tag here because I don't want to focus on "this tag is toxic" (which it is), but rather on the general problem.


To sum it up:

  1. Enforcement of consistently off-putting behaviour is lacking when there are no active moderators in a tag.
  2. People who are regulars in a tag will be able to point to who is causing the problems.
  3. There is no obvious way to raise these kind of concerns and get them actioned.

And because this is supposed to be a question:

  1. What can one do with this in the current system?

  2. What can be done about this so it's fixed systematically?

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    Flag every off-putting comment you see. If you see a pattern of off-putting comments from one user, make a list of questions and custom flag a post to explain the issue to a moderator. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 6:34
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    Just as a heads-up, a lot of the time people post about "perfectly on-topic and valid questions [getting] downvoted and closed" it turns out the questions they're talking about are indeed off-topic. I'm not saying that's the case here but some examples would go a long way. For the comments I don't think posting examples are a good idea but flagging surely is. Flags do get handled even if mods don't follow the specific tag.
    – ivarni
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 6:36
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    I'm fairly confident these questions are on-topic @ivarni; as evidence for this: one of them has >150 upvotes now, and the other one was eventually upvoted a bunch of times and reopened as well (I didn't didn't see that until after I posted my article, but the initial response was downvote+close). I appreciate the sentiment, and I've seen plenty of people complain about off-topic questions here, but these two are not examples of that. I avoided listing examples because I don't really like discussing these kind of specific "look at these people being an a-hole" in public. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 6:40
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    Even as a diamond moderator, I don't go around "actively moderating" the tags that I follow on the main site. Flags are the way that problematic content is brought to moderators' attention. It's always been this way. It isn't a flaw in the design. If summary item #2 is true, then the solution is obvious, as long as summary item #3 is dealt with. And I just don't see how a flag icon or link is anything but obvious to these tag regulars.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:06
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    All I know is based on external signals @CodyGray; this is how it appears to me anyway. But to ask a genuine question: how many comments need to be flagged as "rude and abusive" before action gets taken against a user? In my experience, it takes a very long time before action gets taken, and in the meanwhile we're still left with a problematic tag which drives away many people (askers and answerers). This seems sub-optimal to me, to say the least. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:17
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    If I understand you correctly, there's only a few users that are being consistently rude. Once you notice this, there's no reason to go wading though a list of questions every day finding stuff to flag. You can simply just.. stalk them. Every comment a user make is public and can be directly seen in their profile. I'd be a bit cautious though. There's a fine line between targeting a user and identifying a problem.
    – Scratte
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:38
  • I considered doing that @Scratte, but it makes me feel unconformable. Not in the least because I'm already biased against those people based on prior experiences. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:47
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    @MartinTournoij That's the burden of knowledge & responsibility, I suppose. The community moderation is by you, not by the next regular user that sees the same problem. If you already know you're biased, then leave the comments as they are and when you think there's enough for a pattern, custom flag a post on the profile. Then you've done your duty and not applied your bias on the user, but instead asked someone else (a moderator) to act if they see they same thing.
    – Scratte
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:56
  • I'd put it slightly different @Scratte: "the community is moderated by the moderators, based on signals from you". It's very much a collaborative effort; users need mods and mods need users, and it's vital there's good communication between the two. The core issue of this question could be rephrased as "I feel the communication between users and mods to enable moderation isn't always working well". You're probably right and I'll assemble some examples and send a flag, but IMO it extends beyond these specific examples and merits some deeper thought on how it can be fixed more systematically Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 10:03
  • Did you add (comprehensive) comments to those closed question on why they shouldn't be closed? Someone might come along later and close to reopen due to your comment. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 22:08
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    Re "it's time to start thinking on how it can be tweaked to better cover all of the site.": It is indeed. Or rather tweaking is not enough. Some fundamental changes are required, but the meta crowd is way too conservative to accept any significant change and the company has the IPO (or more realistically being bought by Microsoft) on their mind (too risky). Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 22:08
  • @PeterMortensen Just put of curiosity, what would the required fundamental changes be? I always feel like I can easily pinpoint the shortcomings of SO as a platform (lots of low quality questions and answers and some unfriendly comments) but I have a hard time making suggestions how to improve that to sound somewhat convincing even to me. Commented May 3, 2020 at 16:25

2 Answers 2

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We have a way to deal with this with the current system, and it is not by having moderators actively patrolling the corridors of each tag on the site:

Regular users can (and should) bring matters that deserve moderator attention via flags.

Comments flags, mainly. And if one believes comments flags are not enough, one can raise a custom flag on any post (maybe a post by the user one wants to alert the mods about, but it is possible to flag any post as long as the flag description is detailed enough).

The only way to fix this "systematically" is by community members systematically raising pertinent, accurate flags to bring moderator attention to problematic behaviour.


Regarding voting patterns and closure... that is trickier. You do not mention any specific example so it's harder to address.

Regular votes: users are free to vote as they see fit (as long as they do not engage in voting fraud or user targeting). No amount of "active moderators in a tag" can change that. If a particular question was voted to a -4 score, it means that at least 4 users considered the question downvote worthy.

Nothing there a moderator can do or should do anything about it. Voting is a user prerogative, and in the end the expression of a personal opinion. Express yours and upvote, if you believe the question is good, well-researched, and useful.

Closure is similar: in the end the community has both close and reopen votes. If you believe a question was incorrectly closed you can vote to reopen. Unless it is a dupe (and the examples you mentioned do not appear to have been closed as dupes), it requires at least three users agreeing that the question deserved closure.

So it is harder to make a case about the need to involve a moderator in these cases. Moderators are (mostly) there to deal with things the community can't work out by itself. And closing and reopening question is something that the community can do effectively.

By voting to reopen the question will be pushed into the reopen queue, you can help the question by editing the question to make it clearer that the question really adjusts to the site's guidelines. If that does not work and you want additional community scrutiny, you can always bring the matter to meta. The tags and are relevant for these cases.

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  • "The only way to fix this "systematically", is by us systematically raise pertinent, accurate flags to bring attention to problematic behaviour." - except we're having a bit of a problem with a certain mod shortage. There's some times users who go on comment rampages with only flag-worthy content, and these are handled exceptionally slow. (Obligatory disclaimer: not blaming the mods here. They're doing a great job with the resources they have available). Flagging fixes the problem eventually, but whoever is on the receiving end of it won't exactly feel welcomed by it Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:10
  • "Just flag comments" basically means wading though a list of questions every day finding stuff to flag in the hopes that maybe, perhaps, something gets done by The Forces That Be. That's a large amount of work to impose when the problems are pretty obvious IMO, and in my experience it takes a very long time before anything gets done (as in: years). Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:11
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    @Martin We are the Powers That Be. The site is community moderated. If we do not want to flag problematic content, I'm not sure what do you expect to happen. Again, that's the way it works in all tags, no matter if there are moderators around or not. Regarding taking "years", I'm sorry but that's simply false. I'm not sure where are getting those figures from.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:13
  • @MartinTournoij Or use Queen in SOBotics Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:15
  • It's not really "Community Moderated" though, as my powers are very limited. I don't have any "numbers" on anything, I just have experience with people quite literally telling people to go away (yes, literally), flagging comments for years, before they finally got their long-overdue suspension. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:19
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    It is quite literally "community moderated". Not every member of the community has the same privileges. Community elected moderators have powers that you are me do not have. Our part is to elevate these concerns so they can act on them. But you need to be ready to accept that the response won't be immediate suspension when you flag problematic comments. The first order of business is to delete the comments, and eventually the user is given warnings, and only if things fail they escalate to suspensions.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:22
  • As for "people's votes are their own": this is true only to a certain extent. If you're consistently using your votes in a way that doesn't align with the goals of Stack Overflow, then you're doing something wrong. The clearest example of this is the vote reversal after someone up/downvotes a lot from a particular user. There are tooltips on the vote buttons for a reason. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:25
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    No @Martin. Votes are your own, period. The tooltips say, for example: "this question is useful / not useful". That's personal opinion, and there is no way to police that. The only time votes are reversed is when a user engages in voting fraud or serial voting, as mentioned in my answer.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:27
  • If you're only willing to accept signals from people with the patience to go through a sea of toxicity to flag problematic content and ignore anything else then you're just being wilfully ignorant. I'm familiar with how the SO moderation system is supposed to work, but it simply doesn't cover 100% of the cases. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:28
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    For example, calling someone "willfully ignorant", is something I would consider flag-worthy. Do remember to flag comments like this if you encounter them. I'm out.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:29
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    So you're saying that if I downvote every single PHP question just because then that's clearly just fine? That would be absurd. Absolutist comments like that are discussion stoppers with no intent to explore how to make the site better. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:30
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    @MartinTournoij You're taking it to the hyperbole now. Better take a step back. The point is that all votes are valid unless they are fraudulent. Serially voting on a specific tag is a pattern that moderators are likely to detect, but that alone does not mean that the votes are fraudulent. It may indeed happen that a tag is more likely to attract poor quality questions. Without concrete evidence of persistent odd scores on the questions and answers within a tag, one needs to admit the full spectrum of possibilities.
    – E_net4
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:37
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    unfriendly robot possibly covers some comments in obscure tags
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:41
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    Well yes, it was intended to counter the absolutionist statement in a kind of reductio ad absurdum fashion @E_net4willhelpyouout. I know "votes are their user's own" has been a meta meme for years, but I never bought it: Stack Overflow has pretty well-defined goals, and there's certainly a lot of subjectivity involved, but at some point it becomes pretty obvious that people are using votes contrary to those Stack Overflow's goals. When exactly is a tricky question, but shutting down discussion with "Votes are your own, period" is rather unhelpful. Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:45
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    Putting aside the site-defined vote-fraud definition, votes are your own, period. There is really nothing else to say. And since this is going in circles and become rather unfriendly, I would appreciate if you took the discussion somewhere else since I do not appreciate being pinged about this.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 9:47
3

We already have perfect tools to deal with this kind of behaviour. We have the ability to flag.

We can flag questions. We can flag answers. We can flag comments. We can flag for moderator attention if it's anything else that the moderators should act upon and we can't.

The last time I saw a very much on-topic interesting question I wanted to answer it was downvoted and closed because it's "not suitable for this site"

You don't give any concrete examples, but it looks like 3 people have agreed that this post is not a good fit for Stack Overflow. Maybe it needs only some editing to make it on-topic or maybe it was a rare case where 3 people were in the wrong. Anyway, you can vote to reopen if you feel this is a good post to keep.

a perfectly reasonable question for downvoted to -4 because...

If it was downvoted so much then it definitely was not a good question. Maybe you should rethink your own measures of what constitutes a perfectly reasonable question. Even I rarely vote when a question has a score of -1 or less. When I do, it can be used as a measure to others not to bother looking at this question and/or vote to delete immediately as it is unlikely the OP will be able to salvage it.

Enforcement of consistently off-putting behaviour is lacking when there are no active moderators in a tag.

Even if there are active moderators in that tag it makes no difference. Moderators rarely see every single post on the site. It is physically impossible. The only time I see a moderator who is a tag expert come in handy is when they see a bunch of comments and remove them in bulk or when they close a question without casting close votes.

There is no obvious way to raise these kind of concerns and get them actioned.

Yes, there is. Flag!

I see valid answers being downvoted and closed

You should downvote answers. It is not only your prerogative, but also your responsibility as an active member to vote on content, so it gives a good measure of what tag-experts consider a valuable solution and what is not useful. I don't know what is your personal measure for "valid" answer, but this is how it should be; it's your personal opinion and I do not need to know. Downvoting is good. There is no way to close an answer, so I am not sure what you mean by that.

Paying a bit more attention to tag coverage when choosing moderators might help, although I'm not sure how that would work with elections.

That's a terrible idea. I do not want tag-correctness to overtake SO. What's next? Equal ratio of male/female moderators? Moderators should be chosen based on their skills in curating the content, not based on their activeness in any given tag.

Besides, we have quite a number of moderators on Stack Overflow and as a whole they cover majority of Stack Overflow's most popular tags. We have Python, C#, CSS, PHP, JavaScript, C++, MySQL, RegEx, HTML, Objective-C, R, Ruby and Java. These are the most popular tags and we have a gold-badge holder moderator in each. Sure it would be nice to have more moderators, but we do not need to have more tag-variety between them.

What can one do with this in the current system?

  1. Flag! Flag whatever you see that needs to have moderator act upon. You have 100 post flags and 100 comment flag. Not enough if you ask me, but if everyone used their 200 flags every day then we would not need even this much.
  2. Vote to close and delete. This is often something that is overlooked in the fight against our temperament, but the truth is the less content there is to act upon the more friendly we are.
  3. Vote on posts. Don't be afraid to run out of your votes every day. If you are active you probably use up all of your allocated down votes, close votes and delete votes.
  4. If you feel confident enough, you can engage with a user to try to de-escalate any possible situation, but it is often best to leave it to moderators. Just flag.
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    Nitpicking here: You mentioned Java twice. I like it though :)
    – Scratte
    Commented May 3, 2020 at 17:18

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