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Referring to this posting from Shog9 from 2018 and this request for a follow-up from 2019.

Since Shog is gone, what is the status of implementing the removal of the -vba tags, as he had planned?

People are still editing these out, as discussed in those "threads", but it's time-consuming when the editor does not have enough rep to circumvent the review queue and the practice meets push-back from some users.

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    "People are still editing these out" - Yep, and fixing nothing else while they're at it -.- Jan 21, 2020 at 16:16
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    I disagree. Community (judging by highest voted answer) disagreed. Nothing has been done about it in more than a year - maybe it is time to stop those edits. Nothing (correct me if I am wrong) in this post suggests manually editing the tags out.
    – BrakNicku
    Jan 21, 2020 at 16:25
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    Comments are not for extended discussion; a lengthy conversation has been archived in chat. Jan 23, 2020 at 19:48

3 Answers 3

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excel-vba is gone. So are all other *-vba tags. Long live !

Over the past two weeks or so, I've been cleaning up the per-application -vba tags, by adding vba where there was only a [name]-vba tag. I then merged the remaining use of the [name]-vba tag into [name]. This ensured that all posts which started with [name]-vba ended up with [name] and vba.

(Note that in some cases [name]-vba to [name] meant adding ms- in front, so word-vba maps to ms-word).

In this process I cleaned out:

After handling ~900 questions I reached this point for vba-excel:

THE BIG BUTTON

and I clicked the button.

The status is now:

vba tag status

access-vba is also gone

Thanks to the hard work of Erik A., I was also able to clear out access-vba, on 2020-07-15:

merge dialog for the access-vba tag, to be merged into vba


The astute observer will note that is still there. That's because there are over 5000 posts with that tag but are missing . That's half of the posts with that tag, and simply way too much for me to attack on my own.

I'd love to see this change, but this is a bigger job than I want to handle. It will have to wait for the Community Manager team, as there currently is no good path to handling large-scale tag operations available. I'd love to see a similar yellow warning message on the tag to help steer this towards sane tag use.

I did clean out the confusing access tag to make it easier to untangle from in future.

But, there were people against this!

Yes, and there were people for it. It's been a tug of war stretching over many years. Yet the problems, confusion and the retag wars persisted. Someone needed to cut this Gordian knot.

Shog9 started sharpening and swinging the sword. I simply finished his work by making the final cutting swing.

Big thank you to Shog9

I was only able to do this because Shog9 had kicked off changes that drastically reduced the number of posts to re-visit:

  • For the past two years, users that used were given a warning to use an application tag too, and anyone using excel-vba were told to also add excel and vba.
  • Shog9 added excel to all posts with excel-vba (unless there were already 5 tags on the post). The majority of cases I had to deal with were posts after the June 2018 addition of these tags.
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  • Excellent work. Perhaps we want to feature this somewhere, so the community can be aware that this has finally been resolved (except for the access-vba part, great work on the access tag btw). But I guess with the election featured space is tight.
    – Erik A
    Jul 8, 2020 at 13:32
  • @ErikA: exactly. And frankly, this issue has been grabbing attention for way, way too long.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 8, 2020 at 13:33
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    If Martijn has done his job right, this doesn't need to be featured. The problem should now be resolved, and the confusion allayed. Jul 8, 2020 at 13:34
  • I'm thinking more: people can finally remove excel-vba etc out of their followed tags, and know why access-vba is the exception to the rule for the hopefully short time being. But I guess that's just a niche of the site and they will notice eventually.
    – Erik A
    Jul 8, 2020 at 13:36
  • Since I get the feeling there's a desire to get rid of that access-vba tag and be done with this once and for all, I could try a bot-assisted edit spree, simple remove access-vba, add ms-access if not added yet, add vba if not added yet, list if tag limit of 5 would be exceeded, then manually review the ones that get listed. I've done a little work with OAuth APIs and it shouldn't be too hard I guess if I get the bot approved for write access. Would either of you condone that? The disadvantage would be that they all get an edit, alternatively I could just add vba and we could merge the tags
    – Erik A
    Jul 8, 2020 at 15:30
  • @ErikA: I'd start with a data.stackexchange.com query to list posts with 5 tags. However, I'd not recommend editing by bot without a lot of conservative rate limiting and checks at regular intervals; we've had people try that and break a lot of posts by accident because they got their HTML quoting mixed up, for example. The CMs talked about getting a dev on board for tasks like these, so lets not jump the gun just yet.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 8, 2020 at 16:14
  • @MartijnPieters Of course, I don't intend to break the site. There are 101 posts that would end up with 6 tags after removing access-vba and adding ms-access and vba, these. That's certainly manageable, and the actual number is likely lower after merging excel-vba, which doesn't yet affect SEDE. If they're looking to hire a dev for this, we're likely looking at way more than the usual 6-8.
    – Erik A
    Jul 8, 2020 at 17:04
  • @ErikA: a bit more SQL wrangling could exclude the excel + excel-vba or access-vba + vba posts from that result :-P But that's a very manageable list to do manually. I found that 5-tag posts invariably were over-using tags, cramming the top-5 keywords from the post in there. I never had issues trimming them down, sometimes all the way to just excel and vba (yes, you have an issue with your VBA code, and you used if, and while and actual variables in your code, but your question is not about if statements, while loops or variables!).
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 8, 2020 at 17:11
  • The access-vba + vba combination actually doesn't count towards 5 tags. There's some posts there with vba, but those had 6 tags before the excel-vba merge due to Shog magic.
    – Erik A
    Jul 8, 2020 at 17:14
  • @ErikA no please, there is enough damage about this, don't get other tags involved!
    – Braiam
    Jul 8, 2020 at 18:20
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    @Braiam The decision has been made, two years ago. While I still doubt if it was the best one, it got massively upvoted, so I've made my peace with it (and still struggled a little when there were lots of access-vba edits, but excel-vba was still there). Letting access-vba survive will just cause confusion (why is there an access-vba tag but not an excel-vba one and things like that). Keeping the status-quo with excel-vba gone and access-vba in limbo serves no-one imo.
    – Erik A
    Jul 8, 2020 at 18:33
  • @ErikA the decision which the users that were actually using the tag disagree with. That's a fact.
    – Braiam
    Jul 8, 2020 at 18:37
  • @MartijnPieters All questions tagged access-vba are currently also tagged ms-access. This means, if you want, you can merge access-vba into vba and preserve the information that the question is related to Microsoft Access.
    – Erik A
    Jul 13, 2020 at 16:24
  • @ErikA: wow! That was unexpectedly fast! I'll pull the lever now then!
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 15, 2020 at 11:21
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    Excellent! Now this is really status-completed, that book can be closed. If there's a need for simple retagging sprees based on a search, I've still got the bot and you can mod-message me. I'm a bit reluctant to open-source it because it can harm the site and code quality is well below my usual standards as it's a quick fix.
    – Erik A
    Jul 15, 2020 at 11:30
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I think the answer here is nobody is doing burninations or cleanup at present. Shog9 wasn't doing any AFAIK before he was let go, and the community hasn't been engaged enough to run burnination (they require a lot of work). There's no plans to do a burn or merge anytime soon. Given the current state of Community Managers, this would probably fall to Catija, and she's probably got enough on her plate as-is.

If you have opinions about whether or not to do this, please vote or post on Shog9's question, as that is the canonical for all burnination discussions.

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    Moderators aren’t running any burninations at the moment, either. We lack both the emotional wherewithal and the numerical strength. There are more pressing concerns. Jan 22, 2020 at 5:20
  • @CodyGray The real problem/question is what to do with the -vba tags that (as mentioned in people's comments) are being edited out (and filling the Review queues at times). Should we go back to "they're a valid tag" or continue to suppress them? Who does or how to decide that? Jan 23, 2020 at 15:52
  • I suppose you wouldn't accept "Shog9" as an answer to your last question, @Cindy? :-) Ugh, honestly, I'm not sure what to do about this mess. Under other circumstances, I'd happily step up and try to resolve this with the input of VBA subject-matter experts like yourself, but at this point, it just isn't on my list of priorities. I will put it on my list anyway. It will also require the cooperation of CMs to fully address this, which are in very short supply right now. Jan 23, 2020 at 18:58
  • @CodyGray I understand. Would an acceptable approach be for me (or someone) to post a Q here on Meta asking for a vote? Upvote to continue as until now; Downvote to basically ignore what shog initiated (remove the "don't use" from -vba tags and no longer edit them out). After, say, a week, use the result to set a policy? And lock the question so that it can only be voted - no comments, at least? Jan 23, 2020 at 19:19
  • @CindyMeister While that sounds good, I would wait until the glut of [featured] MSO posts passes. It's liable to get lost in the shuffle. I should also warn you to expect similar results to the Shog9 post (impassioned arguments for and against without resolution)
    – Machavity Mod
    Jan 23, 2020 at 19:24
  • Basically what Machavity said. I don't think what we're lacking here are opinions. We're lacking someone who has the time and access to get their hands dirty and make a decision. That's something Shog was pretty good at. And it's something I do plan to do eventually. I'd want to get buy-in from you and another couple of the VBA tag experts, but I really don't think we need another protracted Meta discussion. That isn't going to get us anywhere, anyway, even if it resolves with a clear consensus, because the gap is having a mod and a CM free to put it into practice. Jan 23, 2020 at 19:27
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    Yeah, 80k questions would be the largest burnination of all time
    – Machavity Mod
    Jan 23, 2020 at 19:35
  • @CodyGray I can wait - no prob. Simply occurred to me while encountering a massive amount of such edits in the Review Queue that the issue is "in limbo" with the initiator out of the picture. I'm not interested in more Meta discussion, either (people can use chat) That's why I said to lock it for everything except up-/down-voting (assuming that would be possible). FWIW I have no strong feelings about the tags, either way. My concern is clarity, possibly reducing traffic in the queue... and avoiding endless discussions, such as the comments to the Q. Jan 23, 2020 at 19:36
  • @CodyGray Anytime you want to discuss there is the Meta Room Owners' chat available Jan 23, 2020 at 19:36
  • @Machavity Which is a reason some have been assiduously removing the tag... Jan 23, 2020 at 19:38
  • I don't think Shog was planning on a burnination, and I certainly am not. That's why a CM is required, to use a tool that rewrites tags in the database based on a pattern. Shog has used such a tool before; I hope he passed it on to someone else. At this point, I'd say just handle the retags the way you normally would. If it doesn't improve the question in any meaningful way, then reject. Otherwise, approve. Flag noisy/obsolete comments for removal. @Cindy Jan 23, 2020 at 19:39
  • @CodyGray If you would put from "At this point... " to the end in an Answer (plus anything else you consider relevant), I'd accept that. It would make the info visible and something we can point to when necessary. Jan 23, 2020 at 19:51
-7

Deleting excel-vba is a serious mistake! It was the saner tag all around and ignores the biggest problem: the excel tag.

Two tags don't do better job than a single one. There isn't a hierarchy of tags. Users answering questions on excel don't have total domain on VBA nor vice-versa. Merging these tags would cause an irreparable harm for all those involved since it would merge all the privileges that the users acquired or would be able to acquire in topics that they aren't experts into.

The saner approach would be to delete . Only a subset of questions of excel are even on topic, and those have (had?) their specific tags: and the now merged . As you can identify, those tags are specific and can work as the only tag on the question and would be obvious that they are on topic questions, questions that are attractive for actual software developers.

for the other hand attracts end-users of Excel. From graphing using the included graph helpers, cell formatting, etc. Those are things that management loves to do, not actual developers. Please, revert this and make sure that the tag that prevails is the one that is useful for software developers, not just the one that seems more easy to keep.

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    Most tags attract general software users, not just Excel. You can find examples like the ones you found across the site, excel is not an exception here. I must again note that I fail to see what actual experience you have in these tags, you have 0 answers to posts relating to VBA or Excel, and you haven't been active in the review queues for a year now. Do you have any empirical evidence here?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 8, 2020 at 17:23
  • @MartijnPieters the empirical evidence is the top post of the other question that you decided that it wasn't relevant. That they were against this. I'm unsure if users can see my votes, but I assure you that I've voting to close questions.
    – Braiam
    Jul 8, 2020 at 18:16
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    BTW, @MartijnPieters the phrase about the beard of your neighbor burning was about using the experiences of others to see how they apply to your environment. I am sure as heck you would be against this if it was the python tag with their versions.
    – Braiam
    Jul 8, 2020 at 18:18

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