-9

A new user posted a now deleted question, How to save random generated numbers. In essence, it is asking how to store a random number into a variable.

Given the OPs statement: "I have not really tried anything because im trying to learn this without having to hit the textbook on how to save things. But now i need some help lol."

This is obviously not an appropriate question for SO (due to the stated lack of effort, attempted code and due diligence).

My issue has nothing to do with the question itself, but the comments posted prior to its deletion:

  1. I would start an activism group and make a GoFundMe page about it. "Save the random numbers!". – ... 1 hour ago

  2. "because im trying to learn this without having to hit the textbook" - how lazy can you get? I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. – ... 58 mins ago

  3. Also, come back when you've tried something, and have more specific questions. – ... 57 mins ago

  4. Please use your books, specifically variables. Asking on SO should be used to help when you cannot figure something out and have exhausted all other resources. – Strom 57 mins ago

The first three posts (made by members of this site for 8-10 years and 28k-42.5k reputation):

Go from a sarcastic response(1) to outright calling the OP lazy(2) with the next statement compounding the insult, to the last statement(3), from the point of view of the OP, as never come back (this may be a stretch, but "come back when" will be interpreted as "don't come back until").

Given the "... is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.", this type of behaviour should be / is unacceptable.

I am not sure my response (4) was the most polite way of stating the issues with the question, but it is much better than the other posts.

This was an unprovoked attack on a new user (who has since deleted their account and will probably never return), and those responsible will never be held accountable for their actions.

This is a single case, but it is representative of the negative impact the community can have on new people.

Stack Overflow has always been a "help me to understand" site. Bad questions still allow for learning, if you point the person in the right direction.

This does not mean you always give them the answer, but you must inform them of what they did wrong, so they can correct it in the future.


My question: What can be done to align SO culture with common courtesy?

Epilogue:

Treat others as you would like to be treated. I took no offence to the ignorance of the OP(Ask yourself WHY did it bother you?). Should this question be closed: Absolutely. How could the situation be handled better? If it bothers you that much:"Ignore it", if you cannot: Offer constructive criticism, tell them how they can ask better questions. If you do not have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

My apologies for the cliches, but they apply here, so be it.

It is my personal policy that any question subject to closure be justified, through comments, at the time closure is purposed, and comment questions be answered by the closing party(prior to closure). This is my personal opinion, but I consider the non-application of this policy more of a provocation than any wrong a new user can commit. According to the rules of site, I am wrong on this point, so be it. It is what it is, but don't expect me to accept this as right and proper behavior.

My reputation has suffered as a result of this post(-6 at this point), but it is worth it to get the word out there, however limited that may be; At least I know I have tried my best.

The SO community suffers from group-think mentality. Reading any question with a negative vote influences the perspective of the viewer.

I am not bashing nor blaming meta. I have come here to try and get the word out. This may reach less than 10 percent of SO users. But, this seems to be a good outlet as any.


I beseech the +34 to try and make a difference. Flagging is a good start, but it was not enough to save this user, but a rebuke at least lets the user(OP) know that something is being done immediately. (Flag and then comment, that is my lesson learned.)

6
  • 2
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please write an answer if you have a viewpoint on this question.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 11:06
  • 11
    FYI: Within the past 5 (ish) minutes, on a PHP question, a questioner decided to verbally abuse several users attempting to help him (I was one of 'em, some pretty atrocious stuff was said). Just because we don't make posts regarding it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to us too. What I did was flag the comment and it instantly disappeared and y'know what? The situation deescalated and it seemed that the OP got the help they needed.
    – Script47
    Commented Sep 11, 2019 at 12:04
  • "What can be done to align SO culture with common courtesy?" Mostly flagging (and voting), I guess. Commented Sep 16, 2019 at 15:07
  • 1
    In response to previous comments, I do not consider a poor question as a PROVOCATION; It is simply someone who does not understand the rules. Many times language is a factor.
    – user10316640
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 1:21
  • 2
    Note: the recently introduced orthogonal concerns have already been discussed before. In particular, offering concrete guidance to everyone asking a poor question does not scale to the number of questions received every day. We cannot expect this to happen for every question. This is not dogmatic thinking, but a matter of adjusting our conduct and activities in a way which best contributes to the site while causing the least harm.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 10:42
  • 3
    Someone not understanding the rules is fine; there's lots, and the site doesn't do a good job of explaining itself. What's not fine is someone refusing to understand the rules. I've lost count of the number of times people outright ignore all help, and demand an answer. It's to the point where many don't care about trying to help bad questions; they've been burned too many times. It's easier on everyone to just close and move on. If that's a provocation...I don't know what to tell you; it's worse to try to help and be yelled at for it.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 14:27

5 Answers 5

18

My issue has nothing to do with the question itself, but the comments posted prior to its deletion [...]

Be that as it may, the comments cannot be viewed in a vacuum. They are the direct result of the question so when you come across a question in which the OP is clearly stating:

I have not really tried anything because im trying to learn this without having to hit the textbook on how to save things. But now i need some help lol.

then expect some frustration on the side of the users. Especially since the Tour outlines the type of questions that suit/don't suit SO, among the reasons for those that don't suit is:

  • Questions you haven't tried to find an answer for (show your work!)

If we're completely honest with ourselves, this question really wasn't going to stick around, irrespective of the comments.

This was an unprovoked attack on a new user (who has since deleted their account and will probably never return), and those responsible will never be held accountable for their actions.

Well, one could argue that the provocation would be to post such a poor question all while doing no prior research.

Does that justify the snarky comments?

No.

Stack Overflow has always been a "help me to understand" site.

No.

The goal of SO is to build an archive of quality Q&A. As much I might want to empathise with the OP, their question is just not up to the standards required.

Bad questions still allow for learning, if you point the person in the right direction.

Absolutely, but that isn't what SO is here to do, again, as harsh as it may sound, we're not in the hand holding business.

What can be done to align SO culture with common courtesy?

Now, to the meat of the issue:

  • Courtesy is a two way street, this means that those asking have to be courteous enough to follow the rules and requirements of the site. You can't expect one side to be courteous while simultaneously being walked all over.
  • From the comments chain of this question it seems that you have an issue with flagging. As @Makoto has tried to explain, flag and move on. Otherwise, I have no qualms in saying this but you'd be an enabler of this problem. By flagging comments like this you bring it to the attention of the mods who can subsequently deal with the users. Maybe being dealt with a punishment might make them reconsider their actions in the future but we'll never know if you don't flag.
  • Finally, please don't assume that this is a site wide problem. Millions of people get help from SO daily without issues. Don't vilify us all due to the actions of a minority.
5
  • 10
    But comments can and must be viewed in a vacuum. A bad post can never justify a discourteous or offensive comment. One should not expect frustration on the side of users.
    – jpp
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 11:40
  • 11
    @jpp Did you read my post? I clearly mentioned that the comments were not justified. If you view things in a vacuum you'll never learn the cause of the issue which means you won't find what the root cause is. Why hack away at branches when you can go for the roots? In this case, it would be a two pronged solution: mod warning to the commenters (if it is required) and a talk the OP of the question regarding quality quesitons.
    – Script47
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 11:43
  • 2
    @Script47: "Why hack away at branches when you can go for the roots?" Just as we don't want users who feel that such questions are OK to post, we should just as much not want users who feel that it's OK to respond to such posts in such a way. People for whom courtesy can be discarded because they're mad at someone for posting a bad question may discard courtesy in other situations too. The branches are just as much of a problem as the root. Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 14:56
  • 2
    @NicolBolas I don't see how my solution wouldn't stop that? Quoting myself: 'In this case, it would be a two pronged solution: mod warning to the commenters (if it is required) and a talk the OP of the question regarding quality quesitons.' What is it that you are actually wanting to see done?
    – Script47
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 15:33
  • I have no issues with flagging. But the post/user was deleted before I was able to flag. Even if I would have flagged, given the deletion status would the mods still have the flag in the queue?(I do not know the answer)
    – user10316640
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 2:01
34

I see this in much simpler terms than the other answers. If you found the comments unwelcoming or unkind, flag them as such. If you found the comments rude, flag them as such. The moderators will examine the comments and remove them if warranted.

All the hue and cry, all the "blame game", all the hand wringing, is for naught. Those responsible will be held accountable if a flag is raised. Even if you can no longer raise a flag on the comments themselves, you can still raise a custom flag on the deleted question and give links to the comments. A moderator, given enough information, can find the comments easily enough and mete out the punishment the commentators deserve.

No Meta post necessary. No angst. No wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just a flag for those who were elected to deal with exactly these kinds of things.

9
  • 3
    On a site where millions of people interact, expect some friction, at the same time, you are equipped to do your part.
    – Script47
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 11:25
  • @Script47 Of course there will be some friction -- I've been involved in generating some of that friction at the start of the whole "welcoming" initiative. But the time of banging that drum has ended. Now is the time to use the tools the company has given us to remedy the problem and see if they work. If they don't? Then we can break out the bongos ;) Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 11:32
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey: "Those responsible will be held accountable if a flag is raised." Sure, the individual actions will be stopped, but only after the damage caused by them has been done. It's like saying that stealing is illegal, so if we catch the thief, then everything is OK... even if they already spent their money and thus the people they stole from cannot get recompense. Punishing the guilty isn't enough to fix the problem; we need to keep reminding people that the bad actions are bad and are not acceptable. And to do so before the fact, not just after. Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 14:53
  • @NicolBolas I never said "everything is OK". I just said those responsible will be held accountable, since that seemed to be bothering the OP. Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 15:01
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey: The OP's question is "What can be done to align SO culture with common courtesy?" Punishing the guilty (particularly in silence) does little to actually do that. Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 15:03
  • 3
    @NicolBolas I disagree. I don't think we need public hangings or heads on pikes to reduce the amount of bad comments. If bad comments are dealt with swiftly and decisively, people will get the message. I think that if you see a bad comment, calling out the commenter (in a nice way of course) would not be remiss, but there are potential repercussions to that also. Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 15:10
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey: "If bad comments are dealt with swiftly and decisively, people will get the message." How exactly will that message be communicated? This site doesn't really have a tight-knit community. People drop in and out all the time. If someone simply disappears for a while due to having posted too many such comments, it is likely that nobody else will know. This would only work if you assume that the problem is individual, rather than cultural. Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 15:38
  • 5
    @NicolBolas If users see a bad comment disappear after they've flagged it, they'll know. If users see a bad comment disappear before they even get a chance to flag it, they'll know. If people start seeing a lot fewer bad comments because they are flagged and dealt with swiftly, they'll know that they can't get away with posting them and won't bother doing it in the first place. Of course there will be people who drop in and troll, but that will happen no matter what the culture of Stack Overflow is. Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 15:45
  • I was unable to flag the comments because the post disappeared, since the user deleted himself. The harm was done and no amount of flagging could have saved it., at the time nor later.
    – user10316640
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 1:28
8

The first thing that needs to be recognized is that those comments are unacceptable. Full stop. There can be no buts and ifs there, there are no good reasons, and never an acceptable situation where commenting like that is okay.

Whenever we start justifying things such as "it was not unprovoked", or "but the question was bad, so you can't expect people not to be bothered by it", there's a subtle social message in play that says that, fundamentally, on some level, it was okay or acceptable to comment like that in that situation - this is actually an academic documented and studied phenomenon - here's a piece on the subject by one of the researchers I know of:

Remarkably, the participants who read the ‘relativist’ article were more likely to cheat on a follow-up test than participants who read the ‘absolutist’ article or the control group. Merely querying one moral conviction had the effect of undermining moral behavior in a seemingly distant domain.

So, to answer the question, here's what we can do:

  • When these discussions come up, send a clearer message that such comments are unacceptable, full stop.
  • Flag the comments & let the mods handle it.
  • Yes, the question was poor, so how to handle it? Close it, move on. You don't need to leave a snarky comment too.
    • If you are willing to, you can leave a comment explaining why it is bad and how we ask questions around here, that helps avoid confusion and similar questions from the same person.

And to further answer the question:

and what exactly are we missing by having this person gone?

We are missing a user who could've learned, stuck around, and became a great question asker in the future - we can't keep burning through people like that when they come to us with a first question. We already have question bans in place to deal with repeat offenders.

Beyond the effect on one person, consider the messages that this sends to bystanders, folks like yourself:

  • Attacks are how we handle new users here.
  • Expect to be attacked if your post isn't up to our standards.

Both of these messages may go on to poison the attitudes of other participants, coloring their interactions with each other. And this may well happen regardless of the merits of the original asker. By justifying or ignoring this behavior in one instance, we implicitly encourage it in many others... And all of us suffer as a result.

5
  • 8
    'we can't keep burning through people like that when they come to us with a first question.' - Can we please get some stats regarding how many people are burnt through compared with the number of people helped? Once again, I'm not condoning the actions but it's frustrating to see it painted as though all of us are going around shooting people down.
    – Script47
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 15:37
  • 3
    @Script47 Cesar is addressing a specific, demonstrated case here of some specific users doing this. The "we" here is the royal "we" intended to refer to Stack Overflow the community even when not everyone in the community is not at fault (see, for example, a parent telling their child "No, John, we do not throw rocks at other children"; the parent said "we" but they weren't the one throwing the rocks). It's practically impossible to name each culprit explicitly, thus "we" is used instead. It is a common thing; don't take it to mean you, personally.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 18:34
  • @TylerH I'm aware of the royal pronoun. I guess it's a misinterpretation then.
    – Script47
    Commented Sep 11, 2019 at 8:02
  • 2
    @Script47 I don't have updated data at hand, but on July, we had around 20% of users who ask one question return to ask a second one within a month. That is very few people, we have almost 80% of people not returning to ask something. I can't show causation that this is 100% related to disruptive behavior, but it is a reasonable assumption that a part of it is. As for whether I am accusing everyone of being responsible, no - in this instance particularly TylerH got it right. This is just one clear example where it happed, we is a royal we, not saying that all our users are responsible
    – Cesar M StaffMod
    Commented Sep 12, 2019 at 17:24
  • 1
    @CesarM, If I could vote a second answer, It would be yours. I think you got the sentiment of my post spot on. Thank you. The majority of users do not exhibit this behaviour, but when it happens the user is unlikely to return.
    – user10316640
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 2:13
-1

I see people in comments actually defending snarky comments under poor questions, because, paraphrasing, "so many poor questions get asked". Say what now? So because people litter their popcorn over the cinema floor, we can shout at them through the movie? Someone else breaking the rules does not mean you should start breaking the rules, however frustrating the former is.

If you can't tell someone they're not following the rules in a nice way, then leave that to someone else.

If being on Stack Overflow frustrates you to the point that you're tempted to leave snarky comments, then you need to take a break.

Yes, I too get sick and tired of seeing the same questions in C#/.NET/ASP.NET/.NET Core over and over again, and you know what I do? I comment with links to the help center or to possible duplicate questions, and/or I downvote, and/or I closevote, and/or I click the next question to see whether I can do more for that particular asker.

Insulting someone isn't going to help anyone. So if you see such comments, flag them appropriately. If you feel the urge to leave such a comment, close the browser tab and go for a short walk.

3
  • 7
    I agree with everything on this post. Absolutely. But I do not see how it answers the "question", such as it is, in any way.
    – yivi
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 11:14
  • 2
    "What can be done to align SO culture with common courtesy?" - flag rude comments and don't leave rude comments, as I explain in my last paragraph.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 11:16
  • Thank you, Your post lets me know there are others that are not offended by bad posts. No matter how tired you may be of them, do not consider them a provocation(flag them or ignore them).
    – user10316640
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 2:32
-8

I get coffee almost daily from a local coffee shop, and I recognize the baristas on sight. It took quite a while for them to recognize me, even though I'd been coming in nearly daily. I'd speak to them about an event that happened, or greeted them as a friend would, only to be confused when they didn't remember me. It took me some time to think of why this would happen -- after all, I see them every day! And I realized -- this coffee shop is really busy. I mean really busy. It's a few hundred feet from that big white house, and it gets hundreds, if not thousands of visitors daily.

Of course they're not going to remember me. Until I form a bond with them, I'm just another customer that wants a mocha. Likewise, The people who have spent a long time on this site have seen thousands of newbies come and go, and with the amount of effort and attention focused on what content should be on the site and what shouldn't, they've forgotten that there are people behind those posts.

If there is money changing hands, it's easy to remember to be polite to the customers. It's much harder when no money changes hands, and if you're in the business of 'curating' content, more content detracts from your mission. However, the coffee shop would be in pretty bad shape if people stopped visiting because the baristas were rude to people who didn't understand the mechanics of waiting in line for coffee.

These comments are unacceptable and they drive the people away who help pay for this site with their eyeballs.

Flag comments you see that are unkind, and a moderator will clean them up.

11
  • 16
    First: yes, those comments were unacceptable, full stop. On your broader answer: I get the gist of the analogy, but it still puts us, the curators, in the role of “customer service”. This is the big, #1, disconnect on this site. The curators are as much customers as the newbies. If we need an analogy, SO is providing a “marketplace”, where two sides can come to trade to their mutual benefit. If either is dissatisfied, the marketplace dries up and dies. People won’t come to sling their wares if the marketplace is only populated by tourists looking for freebies or “samples”.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 16:27
  • As a 'customer', are you willing to agree to pay $1250 per year along with the other 29,999 'customers' to keep Stack Overflow afloat? Assuming they have 250 employees and $150K per employee in fully loaded costs, that's what you're asking to do. There are only three ways this works: 1) companies spend enough for teams that it covers their costs+profit. 2) companies spend enough on "enterprise" that it covers costs+profit 3) they get enough new and recurring visitors to make ad sales work. The 'curator' is only a party to #3; and 30,000 sets of eyeballs isn't enough.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 16:39
  • 19
    Your formula leaves out that that the other customers, the larger set, is only here because we 30,000 are. Without the curators, you won’t have the tourists either. And that also leaves SO DOA. Let’s turn it around: are you willing to shell out $1250 / year to each of us to provide “customer service” with no more pushback, complaints, Meta drama, etc? I’m not being paid, which is why I resist being “customer service”. Either I’m paid in my experience, to offer other users their experience, or you can pay me real dollars.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 16:42
  • @DanBron Let's just say that I do not share your point of view.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 16:46
  • 2
    Economically, the table is set. This site relies on unpaid volunteers to 'curate' it. It also relies on new programmers asking questions to drive ad views. It relies on teams believing its software is the right way to handle team knowledgebase. Anyone is, of course, willing to say "no, I don't want to be a part of that any more", but that's where we are. You can't mess up those three legs of the triangle; and if any of them come into conflict, it has to be resolved according to whichever leg gives the most money. In a free public website, the money comes from the eyeballs.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 16:51
  • 12
    In this we are in agreement: I think your answer directly messes with one of the three legs (the first one). I also think it overlooks the major overlap between the first leg and the experts who provide answers (value) to the second leg.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 16:56
  • 1
    @DanBron I understand what you're saying and your disagreement. I don't share your assessment of the matter.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 10, 2019 at 16:58
  • 1
    @DanBron, The breakdown of your argument is the forward value of those that are helped. Some of them become the experts and return to help others, thus continuing the triangle.
    – user10316640
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 5:10
  • 1
    @Strom The ones who don’t do basic research before coming here, don’t make a MCVE to help their fellow craftsmen help them, can’t narrow down their questions, can’t or won’t apply the documentation, etc, in short the ones who desperately want SO to be a “helpdesk” and for us to be “customer service”, who both most urgently need and urgently resist curation... are the least likely to develop expertise. The ones that accept feedback, edit their questions, add additional details, etc, the collaborative, engaged ones who embrace curation are almost always the ones who become steady contributors
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Sep 17, 2019 at 11:00
  • @DanBron, Have some faith. My first few questions (the initial versions of them) were undoubtedly poor and lacking a sufficient mcve. I slowly but surely got the hang of how to help others answer my questions, and since then I'd like to think I've paid back a little of that help in asking / answering well-received posts since.
    – jpp
    Commented Sep 18, 2019 at 16:35
  • @jpp I don’t doubt some are redeemable. That’s how we all got here, after all. What I’m saying is from my experience, there is a checklist of sorts that provides strongly predictive indicators. I’ve worked with and helped all sorts of users for years now, and the ones who are interactive are much much more likely to develop; the ones that put minimal effort into their posts and then fight you when you try to get them to raise the bar — or disappear completely — well, let’s say the odds are very much against them. And I invest accordingly.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Sep 18, 2019 at 16:38

You must log in to answer this question.