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It might surprise you to know that the person credited with being the most influential individual in the recovery of Japan's industrial economy after the second world war (and the subsequent "economic miracle" that his philosophies inspired) was not Japanese, but in fact American.

W. Edwards Deming was, among other things, a quality control expert who brought his successful philosophies from the Ford Motor Company to Japan. His expertise paved the way for Japan to emerge as an economic superpower after the war.

Deming's expertise was both wide and deep. While I won't get into his philosophies in detail, I will recount one of them I learned from him that has stuck with me to this day.

Here it is:

The way you achieve quality is not with better metrics, but by giving ownership of quality to those people who are in the best position to provide it.

What does that mean? It means that, while leadership is very important, it must be tempered with knowledge, the kind of knowledge that only the people in the trenches can provide.

It means that, if you want the truth, you don't ask your company's leadership; you ask the line workers who have to put together the damn thing. They'll tell you the truth; they'll tell you about the problems in the supply line that prevent products from being assembled correctly. They'll tell you that the doors don't fit. They'll tell you when management cares more about their metrics than about the folks on the assembly line whose efforts keep them employed.

It means that you don't throw the people who made you successful under the bus.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that, if you are a decision maker at Stack Exchange, but you haven't used your own product, your perspective is already compromised.

Stack Overflow is a programmer community. One of its most influential thinkers is Bob Martin, creator of the SOLID Principles. Bob once said (and I'm paraphrasing):

If you are an architect, you must spend time coding in the system that you're architecting. Otherwise, you will never be fully effective as an architect, because you'll never fully understand the pain you are inflicting on others.

The practice of using one's own product is so ingrained in our occupation that we have our own term for it: eating your own dog food.

So use your product. Get to know one of the communities that you have an interest in. Participate. Moderate. Understand the passions, the successes, the pain points of that community. Achieve enlightenment. Then you will be in a better position to govern.

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    Hard to agree more. When I see SE employees participating in Meta but they have barely dabbled in using the site, I can't help but conclude that's at least in part responsible for a lot of the tension between staff and the rest of the community.
    – mason
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 0:16
  • 22
    As an abstract philosophical exercise, I agree with this post. In terms of tone, I think it is likely counterproductive (though I know where the tone comes from). And, small but important note: as someone recently joining sr mgmt, the line workers also do not know what they do not know. There are problems they aren’t in a position to see, just as mgmt isn’t in a position to see the problems they can. Final hedge: I don’t have a solution to the problems or tension in the network.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:03
  • 61
    @DanBron: What's wrong with my tone?
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:04
  • 5
    @RobertHarvey: Taking a critical/negative tone towards things on the site doesn't motivate actual change, and can lead to feedback being either unread or disregarded in one form or another. It basically means that those who read this feedback may misinterpret it. I don't see any issues and I also hope that this feedback is read.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:09
  • 12
    @RobertHarvey What Makoto said. If you want attention, and more especially action, of the people you’re targeting with this post, barely-subdued anger is not the way to get it.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:11
  • 92
    Boy I have to be sooo careful how I say things nowadays. In case you haven't figured it out yet, I favor the truth over saccharine sweetness, and don't take much stock in the political correctness that seems to be the order of the day.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:12
  • 58
    @DanBron what barely subdued anger? I think you are reading into something that is not there.
    – mason
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:12
  • 3
    @mason If you can’t see it, I am in no position to help. We all take away what we take away.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:18
  • 21
    Which is not to say that all takeaways are equally valid @DanBron. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 11:23
  • 2
    @FélixGagnon-Grenier I agree with that statement ;)
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 11:24
  • 45
    I see no "barely concealed anger" in this post. It is a great post. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 11:32
  • 4
    I feel like this post is a response to something that I'm not aware of. Am I out of a loop here?
    – Blorgbeard
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 17:25
  • 29
    @Blorgbeard: More of a general impression. When a company gets to be a certain size, they tend to forget what made them successful in the first place. By their own admission, Stack Exchange becoming larger has made it harder to roll out features and fixes, because they have to work through more layers of bureaucracy. I'm not saying that companies should never evolve; I'm saying that Undercover Boss exists for a reason.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 17:29
  • 8
    @Makoto - "Taking a critical/negative tone towards things on the site doesn't motivate actual change, and can lead to feedback being either unread or disregarded..." - Funny, the current leadership at Stack Overflow does that now for all feedback (both positive and negative). They have proven they cannot identify and fix problems. Since positive feedback has not worked, keep shaming them until they change their ways or we get rid of the incompetent leadership. Shame is a security control. Confer, mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/websec/… .
    – jww
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 20:52
  • 3
    @jww: My remark is more tongue-in-cheek than it seems. In all honesty, constructive criticism doesn't start with the premise of shame, and while sometimes we can't find any silver lining in any kind of feedback we want to deliver, at a minimum we can not sound like jerks when giving it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 21:00

4 Answers 4

53

...Let's face facts here, y'all. While we have a moment to, anyway.

I agree with this thinking and ideology, and I as an actual architect (for my day job) also feel the same way. Sharing the pain of an implementation of something is one good way to keep us honest on how well an implementation is going to work, and it's important to keep tabs on the ones which were enlightening and useful, and the ones which blew up in our face.

However, the ultimate reality is that this isn't going to happen.

The reason:

Stack Overflow has grown into a vast and diverse ecosystem of products, and is less of an actual community.


The main thing we seem to go on about here on Meta is the Q&A aspect of the site. Q&A is actually quite straightforward; if you have a question, you ask it here and it gets an answer. You do have to have a good question to ask and you also have to be sure that you supply us with what we feel are reasonable attempts at a solution, or at least something for us to work with. It's surprising how not a lot of askers seem to rise to that level for us, yet feel that it's okay to lash out against the community (as it were) when we take the corrective action we feel needs to happen.

But...the issue now is that you're not going to get a substantial part of the team actually committed to using the site on a daily basis, since, well, that isn't their job. That's not what their domain expertise is in, and they're being asked as part of their actual expertise to do their day jobs.

What was mentioned (as far as titles go) was a project manager, a data team, UX researchers, community managers (CMs), designers, and engineers, and I can see maybe two groups out of that list being committed to the site on a daily basis, similar to how we are. A lot of the other people in that list aren't primary consumers of the kind of site that Stack Overflow is, and frankly - that's not why they were brought on board.

To complicate matters, Stack Overflow has diversified its offerings into several products:

  • A platform for people looking for programming jobs to be able to better find them
  • A platform to allow for advertising of your goods (mostly on-stream advertisement)
  • A place to privately host your own instance of Stack Overflow-style Q&A boards, and
  • Most recently, a place to let you do the above but with Stack Overflow handling the infrastructure for you.

At a minimum, the people who are hired to do this probably aren't going to be using Talent/Careers since they're already hired, and they probably aren't going to be looking for another job, so they're not in the context of what it's like to actually use the tool. (Full disclaimer - I've tried myself to use it several times, and the most value I got from it was a company I wished to never, ever talk to again since their interview process was literally a cold call technical screen the following day. (To the team's credit, the feature was delivered about three years after I highlighted the request.)

Now you get into the main issue of development on such a large scale, which is, in essence, a lot of the power features we want or think are high priority aren't as high a priority to the people with the roadmap. They're not going to share our pains since they don't see this in an as critical light as we do. They may say they value it highly, but the milestones we've hit along the way tell the actual tale here.

It's a slow and painful effort to get a product team which doesn't have the same level of investment as the people using the products which they create. We as engineers have created a lot of pieces of work which we probably won't use in our lifetime - for instance, I've worked on an affiliate network-style site (think Squidoo if that means anything to you, but it was definitely not Squidoo), but I would never want to use or do anything like what they're doing, so I wasn't invested in the actual ecosystem. Thankfully, that didn't detract from the job I did or the quality I delivered, since I was able to actually instill great change at that company, and provided incredible utility for me, being fresh out of college.

We like to think that Stack Overflow is different, and that it's a special snowflake in many contexts. It truly is, but that depends on how you look at it. To us, this is a community with a glimmer of hope left that needs more love and support from the Powers that Be. To others, well, somehow, some way, the lights have to stay on, lest our squabbling and frustration be for literally no reason.

This is the paradox we find ourselves in. We are at the mercy and timetable of benevolent dictators (with some apologies to Jon for word choice). They have been truly benevolent, but don't let benevolence mistake anyone's position in this matter. At the end of the day, the decision rests with them to guide the site in a specific direction. Our feedback will absolutely be taken into account and weighed, though.

I found myself in this mindset not long after...well, "the resolution of an incident in which I had to take a break" happened, and I went back to the Anime & Manga Stack Exchange site. I'd been a part of that community for a while as well, and while I definitely feel like I could be more active, I feel like I've contributed quite a bit there too. This is only to run into the circumstance that, we gave them feedback on what we wanted the site to look like, and we didn't get that. The CMs there did promise to do better, but what we'd get is what we'd get, which gets back to the "dictator" piece of this. They were benevolent enough to revisit it, but they have decisions that need to be made. The end result: it's an improvement, but it's still not quite what we asked for, in my head, but it's something that I could be satisfied with.

If nothing else, that little episode on a site with a question-per-day count that would be seen as a rounding error to Stack Overflow is pretty indicative of what's going on in the Stack Exchange Network itself. A lot of people that are responsible for these communities may be a lot more detached from them than anyone really realizes, but at the end of the day, that's not what's going to keep the lights on, or them paid, or any of their key stakeholders happy.


There's really not a good way for us to express our viewpoint on this. The only thing we could realistically do is disappear for a time, and leave the site to its own devices, but the voices we have in the room which actually cared about these kinds of things would slowly start to die down. We want a good site, but we have to have a site first before we can make it good. I'm not a fan of the position we're in either, but I don't see a clean way to fix it.

Not unless you decide to actually apply to be a CM.

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    Makoto, I feel like your post makes a lot of points in favor of Robert's argument, but then throws it out the window because it might be futile to suggest it. So I have to disagree with your conclusion here.
    – mason
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:33
  • 2
    @mason: I'm not saying that it's futile to suggest. I'm more thinking along the lines of the circumstances we find ourselves in. Yes, the company should be eating its own dogfood. Will eating its own dogfood keep the site up and running? Maybe?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:39
  • 4
    No, it's just the first step.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:40
  • 6
    @RobertHarvey: Yes, I agree, but I'm serious when it comes to this. The site is facing a true paradox in that the very people who prop it up aren't necessarily the same people who take advantage of the actual for-profit services which afford us the privilege of propping up the site. It's a paradox in every sense of the word, and I don't have any idea how that can be really resolved. While I feel that this is a symbiotic circumstance, nothing we have discussed actually resolves the true tension between building a community and running a company.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:46
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    This is a great answer and I hope to see some real discussion of it in the comments. @Makoto I'm sorry that you're not happy with the final design on Anime but there's only so much money we can afford to spend. We hired an illustrator who works in the Anime industry to create that artwork, we didn't make it in house. But it's somewhat unfair for you to ascribe your disappointment to the entire site. The general response I've seen there is positive. Y'all spent so much time dreaming about the design, I'm not sure we could have ever delivered on those requests.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:46
  • 7
    @Catija: "Not happy" isn't quite what I would go for. I'd more go for "acquiesced", since I knew what I was getting into when I was providing the feedback. I'm thrilled that it looks better, and it does look something like anime/manga now. Is it great? I could bet you'd throw a hundred thousand dollars at that and not really come close. Anymore, I'm thinking I need to mature up and temper some expectations, and I feel like I did a very good job of that myself when I asked the clarifying question of what we get is what we get. Knowing that, I was at least happier to acquiesce. :)
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 1:48
  • Supporting the paragraph right above the first <hr>: i.sstatic.net/GLXOC.png
    – iBug
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 17:14
17

Despite my deficiencies in using Stack Overflow specifically, I hope y'all would agree that I know a bit about the Network. If you don't know me, before I was hired as a CM I was a moderator on two sites (Interpersonal Skills and Arts & Crafts) and (as you can see from my profile) I have plenty of network experience as a high-rep user and moderator.

When I first got hired I was poking around in the chat history of an internal room ... searching my username - as one does - and I found out that I was... kinda unique in how I use mod tools, specifically the waffle bar on flagged post pages. It looks like this:

Screenshot of Waffle Bar with flagged content on this post. Each end of the bar shows a forward or back arrow

Almost no one uses the backwards/forwards arrow buttons on the bar. Over the course of a month, I used the buttons 131 times but only four other of ~550 mods used them more than 10 times during the same month - 78, 29, 19, and 13 times - and only 16 other mods using them at all.

So... if someone had asked me if they were useful, I'd say that they were and that I used them all the time... I prefer handling all of the flags on one question at the same time than handling flags by type, so it was a better view for me than sorting flags on the dashboard but that doesn't make me representative of anyone else. In fact, most mods find the buttons annoying because there's no way to predict what post will come next.

This is to say that how someone uses a product is unique to that person. Some find features perfectly easy and useful while others find them hard to use and in need of improvement. So, my singular experience really doesn't count for much, particularly if I'm not struggling and everyone else is.

You say:

What does that mean? It means that, while leadership is very important, it must be tempered with knowledge, the kind of knowledge that only the people in the trenches can provide.

I agree with this! What I disagree with is the solution you propose. Some of the most valuable information we can get is from people in the trenches... but that doesn't have to be us... and, in fact... y'all probably wouldn't be happy with the solutions we came up with because we can only fix things to the degree that we can see the problems.

Moderator Flag Dashboard Refresh - an example

So far I've seen a ton of work put into moderator tools this year. We've completely redesigned the flag dashboard and we did it with the help of many of the mods across the network, particularly here on SO, where the flag volume is the highest.

The process was something like:

  1. The flag dashboard is horrid.
  2. Designers/devs look at it and say "how are the poor mods managing to get anything done with this? It looks awful and useless!"
  3. Talk to mods in one-on-one sessions to have them walk us through their process using the dashboard.
  4. Work up some sketches of alternatives.
  5. Show the sketches to people internally who use the flag dashboard (CMs).
  6. Review the improved sketches with mods to get feedback.
  7. Create an alpha version and test it on SO/MSE with an opt-in option.
  8. Get feedback and rework the design.
  9. Revise the alpha and test it network-wide with an opt-in option.
  10. Get feedback and rework the design.
  11. Soft-launch network-wide in an opt-out option.
  12. Another set of one-on-one sessions to see how mods are adapting to the new dashboard and if there are more pain points.

The people doing this work don't need to use the dashboard to know how to fix it and if they fixed it based on their own usage, their needs may not align with those of the moderators on the network. We can and are relying on the feedback of experts, just as you say. We've already shown that we're working to make changes that are useful to the people using them through this very process.

Will the final results be perfect for everyone? Probably not... but is any solution ever? Talking with 4-6 people directly at various points in the process to see how a tool is being used and getting feedback on the new design from anyone willing to offer it is going to result in something much more useful to more people.


I absolutely love Stack Exchange. That's why I work here. I point out various sites to people all the time and I think it's great when my coworkers use the sites themselves. But I don't think we can require it - and I'm not even sure that's what you want, Robert. You say it in your title but the body of your question is more of a call to action, encouraging us to remember to use our own product which I think is far better... and something I need to remind myself of, too.

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    I'm not sure if this is feasible but how about you make kind of public who were involved in the design, both "professionally" and from the community? Doesn't need to be names but maybe role, years of "experience", reputation, # of reviews. Just to get some feedback/feel to which people you have been talking to (and so we can start blaming those probably) I'm only trying to find a way to make transparency visible ...
    – rene
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 6:16
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    The people doing this work don't need to use the dashboard to know how to fix it -- Perhaps not, but there has to be someone very close to them in the corporate hierarchy that has at least touched it. It's very hard to make the argument that you can fix something you don't understand.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 13:25
  • 1
    As to your last sentence, the title and tags of this post are (very slightly) tongue in cheek. If the "call to action" has been heard and heeded, the post has served its purpose. (see the deleted comments under the OP for some further clarification.)
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 13:30
  • 2
    @rene - I gave feedback on an early version of the dashboard refresh, for one. I highly doubt that SE is going to give you a list, though, aside from "various mods from around the network".
    – Mithical
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 20:39
-22

There is no community. Everyone is on their own here.

They want us to answer their questions on their terms:

I feel that a customer service ethos should be the norm

We want to answer their questions on our terms:

I don't care if you get your question answered as of now has +237 -17 votes.

The current situation looks like an impasse, both sides are clearly not satisfied with it, and definitely feel that something has to be changed.

But has it, really?

In business and politics, often the best solution is the one that makes all parties equally unhappy.

Maybe we all just can deal with it, and leave it at that?

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    Not particularly helpful.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 14:09
-23

Weighing in as I can give some insight on how the team evaluates community decisions.

I can say that everyone making decisions use extensive research to make up for any blind spots they/we have.

None of us can say we are an expert at everything, some of us are more experienced on SO, for example, and others on SE, many haven’t participated in Meta extensively. These are always things that are considered when making significant changes. If someone doesn’t have experience in one area, they talk to people that have that experience. And we don't just talk to people, we make sure we've done research with all user segments that changes will effect. They sit down with new users, experienced users, mods, lurkers, and everyone in between.

I say all this because the people involved in making improvements to the Q&A product are excellent at what they do and I'm really honored to work with them.

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    Forgive me, but "extensive research" sounds like a marketing term. You don't need data scientists to accomplish this; you just need some direct participation in the community. It doesn't even have to be very much. You folks talk a good game about empathy; show some.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:13
  • 8
    @RobertHarvey it's worth considering that, while valuable, we can each have only one experience and it's pretty impossible to un-experience things so that you're starting from scratch. There's absolutely people involved in this process with specific experiences and pain points but we also recognize that our specific experience isn't going to be the same as everyone else's. That's why we do research, talk to users to hear about their pain points... regardless of their expertise. We're talking to new users, close voters, moderators... and everyone in between to find the concerns we need to fix.
    – Catija Staff
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:35
  • 50
    For all your extensive research and sitting down with all your users, no one has ever asked me what I think, or listened to me when I told them. It seems to me that you're overconfident in your research and how much everyone knows that they don't know. People tend to be very oblivious of what they don't know. Obviously the status quo isn't satisfying anyone, so maybe y'all should stop looking at it from the standpoint that the community is wrong and consider that y'all may in fact be wrong. Just a thought, not like anyone is listening.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 16:12
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    I appreciate this answer, and I appreciate how much effort and energy you spend on communicating with Meta, knowing how hard it is here. All I can suggest is if you’d consider making your next post, either Q or A, focused on veteran users, their concerns, and quality of life improvements for that particular part of the community, without reference to new users or their experience. Show us some light for us at the end of the tunnel. However necessary, well intentioned, and well-presented another post is about the new user experience, its effect for all parties is going to be demoralizing.
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 16:38
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    The first comment to this answer reminds me of why most of us don't comment on questions when down-voting or close-voting. Thank you Sara for trying to address this question. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 17:24
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    Credits where credits are due: those 5,882 reputation doesn't come out of thin air so Sara participated on SO but maybe a bit thin on the moderation (review / voting / editing) side.
    – rene
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 19:52
  • 14
    @TinyGiant and who are you exactly? Did you enable in your profile that you want to be invited for research on SO? I was invited twice over the last 2 years (missed one, and the other one was about developer story)
    – rene
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 19:54
  • 1
    @rene Settings for invited for research is set to off by default apparently.
    – Shinjo
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 3:30
  • @rene there used to be a setting in preferences but isn't there anymore.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 5:33
  • 2
    @Lankymart for me it is still there: i.sstatic.net/RpNly.png
    – rene
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 5:57
  • @rene ah, okay sure it used to be under preferences along with invites to betas.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 6:00
  • 3
    I have enabled the research toggle, and I've still never received anything of the sort. Literally even a simple yes/no "I would like this" once a month for a feature would be huge.
    – jhpratt
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 4:55

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