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I have been active on this site for many years, yet I have never seen the level of programming questions so rudimentary as it has been in the last 12 months. Yeah sure, there has always been beginners asking questions, yet something seems very different in the last 12 months or so…. A demographic change maybe, or a use case change or something.

Don't get me wrong. I am not bitter at this; I am just curious to know if the other major tags are seeing the same thing (I lurk primarily in C#). If it is a real thing, my intuition says this may be a product of an increase in schools teaching programming in the early years, combined with the homework mentality of schoolkids (who are neither enthusiast nor professional) and just want what all schoolkids want, a free lunch.

The downside of this is these kids are only here for homework questions; they will have little site interaction and longevity (well apart from their current class and homework), and their questions are so low quality and randomly generated that their questions have very little future value.

Which brings me back to the title, ‘When did SO turn from "A site for professional and enthusiast programmers" to a "Help me with my school-works" site?’

As I said, this maybe just my perception and I am happy to know otherwise, but if it's not, then has SO lost its way a little? Is it a suffering from its own success? Are the contributors and foot soldiers curating endless questions, playing duplicate football and too-broad hockey for no appreciable worldly gain?

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    I wouldn't say it a recent thing, techblog.bozho.net/… is a 3 year old blogpost expressing the same sentiment, and I'm sure people have been saying "it used to be better" for longer than that but I saw that one linked here earlier this week. I think the problem is finding the right balance between user retainment and curating. I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far in one direction.
    – ivarni
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 5:10
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    The most likely explanation is more schools using C# to teach programming. There have always been plenty of questions from students in other tags. It's certainly not something that's new in the past 12 months. To answer your question, I don't believe the site has changed. At least, not until we let it. It is a victim of popularity. When it's the best place to get answers on the Internet, everyone is going to turn to it. That just means we have to continue to enforce our quality standards. Homework questions are not, in themselves, a problem. Bad questions are a problem.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 5:24
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    @DavyM A more related post
    – TheGeneral
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 5:30
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    In my country, python is being taught to 9th grade students and outdated HTML, CSS in high school.
    – weegee
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 5:41
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    Don’t confuse you noticing a pattern for the pattern being new. The human mind is terrible at judging statistical changes over time, e.g. see recency illusion, frequency illusion and availability heuristic. What happens instead is that you’ve become attuned more to the low-quality stuff, but it has always been flowing in. This is not new and has not changed.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:20
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    The first conclusion must to be: a human observer has noticed a pattern, not the pattern has changed. There is no point in speculating about reasons for changes until we have established using objective tools that any change has actually taken place. I say that it hasn’t. We all experience the Eternal September effect at some point in our Stack Overflow careers, but it’s been there since the beginning.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:34
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    @TheGeneral It’s not new, it’s been going on since at least 2010. As your use of the site grows it naturally becomes apparent that a lot of questions we get are crap. The trap you should watch out for is that community moderation has cleaned up a lot of the past crap and so, until you noticed the influx, you were just not aware of it before.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:48
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    Did you mean the Eternal September?
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 8:13
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    @AndrewT. Way before Stack Overflow existed, users already started noticing a disturbing influx of bad quality questions on Stack Overflow, and veterans that spent many years on the non-existent site started complaining on meta about it
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 9:55
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    You mentioned C#. According to the most recent SO survey, C# does not seem to be used much in schools / academia. The big languages there are python / java. So, many of these questions may not even be 'school works' related...
    – John Smith
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 15:12
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    There was a general study in mentality changes in the youth's way of thinking since the apparition of Internet. This study seemed to demonstrate that because all the data was available quickly and easily, younger people tend to loose the habit of searching in their memory for answers. There seems to be a change in the brain, the younger having also increased their ability to process multiple and complex data as a tradeoff. Less memory, quicker processing. Might be heavily related, life often follows the easier path. I often force myself to try to remember instead of always searching on the web
    – Kaddath
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 15:36
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    All throughout history people have had this exact same sentiment. "Stuff was better when I was younger". "Kids these days are stupid/filthy/ignorant/a disaster". "Where is the world going?" Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 16:40
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    What I've noticed is not a higher influx of homework-type questions, but a higher tolerance towards them. A question which 3-4 years ago would've been -1'd/closed for lack of effort, today gets a number of answers spoon-feeding an easy solution or maybe just an API quote taken from the 1st result on Google. And these quick answers, which were -1'd too in the past, are now +1'd or at most ignored, and all is good. This "let's all be nice and don't scare new users" is what's being encouraged now and, while it may be a good thing, it surely is different from what we used to do before.
    – walen
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 11:41

6 Answers 6

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It happened soon after Jeff Atwood left, around 2012-2013. The new crap trend was noticed by for example this question from 2014: Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?, to which I then posted an answer here regarding the increase of homework questions, speculating that the various policy changes that happened around 2013-2014 were to blame.

So this is not some recent trend - the quality of the site has been in decline ever since. I rather suspect the past 12 months is just an escalation of a very long negative trend.

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    And it wasn’t new then either. Just because it was new to you doesn’t mean it was new to the site. Not then and not now. It happened the moment the site started. Not any later.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:21
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    @Lundin: show me the statistical proof. Because I know claims like these have been made much earlier than that, without actual proof. The human mind is a very fickle thing.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:35
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    @Lundin: Earlier, better example from 2010.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:47
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    @Lundin that post was already (rightly) criticised at the time. Individual users will always see a rise and fall in participation. My account is no exception, I am currently swamped with work so post far less. Other accounts have started after me and are crazily active right now and will at some point taper off again. That’s not proof of an overall decline. And I asked for proof that question quality levels have changed.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:55
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    @MartijnPieters Well, I'm no database wizard so I can't help you there. But as a long term user I can certainly notice the negative trend, subjectively. For the same reason that I can subjectively tell that I'm ill, without a doctor proving it by analysing microbiological samples. To be puking all over the place is evidence enough, to use a suitable metaphor.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 9:17
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    @Lundin: That's my whole point: Humans are terrible at noticing trends. Positive or negative. We suffer from a whole host of biases that are great for survival in a hunter-gatherer life but will also make you susceptible to subjectively noticing a negative trend where usually there isn't one. I don't know if there is, but you saying so is not good enough. All humans suffer from this, no-one is exempt, which is why I ask for rigorous statistical proofs.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 10:41
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    @MartijnPieters Be that as it may, before 2014 we closed all questions of the nature "I haven't read the first chapters of any beginner-level book, please be my interactive beginner tutorial". Now those questions are incredibly common, answered and even up-voted. They are so basic that you can't even close them as dupes, because it is simply too fundamental stuff.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 11:12
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    @Martin What's a bit disheartening here (and, it's not your fault) is that for a veteran to be heard we need proof and stats to corroborate what we say. If it's a newbie ... One Twitter post is enough, with nothing but 'heres my feeling'...
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 11:53
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    @Lundin: no, we did not. We have plenty of questions from before that time that would fit that (rather vague and open to broad interpretation) description. We never did that.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 13:18
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    @Lundin That close reason never existed to close questions that were about basic topics. This post most succinctly describes what the close reason existed for, and how to close any questions that actually meet the criteria that close reason was designed to have. I also feel obligated to point out that, as Martijn has said, there were plenty of low quality questions from long before then that were not closed or downvoted, and plenty of people complaining about that fact.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 13:44
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    @Lundin they always were coming. How we close them has perhaps changed (too broad, unclear, etc) but they still get downvoted and closed nonetheless. Anyway, you are veering wildly from the actual subject: our perceptions of this are hugely subjective. It’s a well known phenomenon, widely supported by scientific literature. How you motivate your perceptions doesn’t matter here. You feel questions are worse and you have found a reason that supports your hypothesis. But we still don’t actually have evidence that anything has changed.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 14:03
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    @Lundin: you make it sound as if I am denying that? I said that we don’t know. Your answer makes it sound as if we do. I am asking you to provide evidence for that and stated why I think we need something more than the anecdotal information provided so far.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 14:23
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    I don't think anyone disputes the fact that low quality content existed from the beginning of the universe. This is, in no small part, why Stack Overflow was created to begin with. I think that what changed (maybe when Jeff left, maybe at some other time), is the company's views and treatment towards such content, as well as the users who generate it. Jeff's approach was "we value the experts' time more than anything else, and so we'd do anything to preserve it", which I didn't agree with 100% because we can do better at educating our newer population.
    – Madara's Ghost Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 14:27
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    But now it has been shifted to "we want everyone to participate equally as much as possible", which is, in my opinion, even worse, because to do it, you kinda have to ignore a lot of the work and investment already made by a lot of people, and settle for less quality. If you close someone's question, no matter how well intentioned or phrased, you are unwelcoming. This is immutable.
    – Madara's Ghost Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 14:28
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    @MadaraUchiha I still have to see more than conjecture on that subject. Not treating people like trash is not the same thing as treating trash content as trash. However, I really don’t want to go down that rabbit hole of a discussion, that’s for other posts.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 14:31
61

Check Your Tag

I'll echo a sentiment many others have mentioned: this isn't new.

I'm a team lead in my department, so I end up being responsible for interviewing and placing the majority, if not all, development interns in my office. Over the past few years, I can tell you I've noticed one massive change: students are being taught in C#. At least for the ones I deal with, this is almost exclusively; they come in with a little bit of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, and a boat load of C#. No PHP. No Python. No Java. No C++. Not even C.

The fact that you lurk in C# suggests to me that you've just been a little behind the curve on all the homework questions on this site. Well, C# is the new hotness is schools (apparently), so you've started getting the homework questions C++, Java, and Python have been seeing for years.

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    Interesting. As a current student, Java seems to be still very dominant. I do agree that knowledge in C is very much on the way out. Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 16:41
  • @JackStrosahl: So you say.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 19:29
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    @RobertHarvey Anecdotally at least, very few students know C. Also, the TIOBE index does specify it is based on the number of skilled engineers, not students. Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 20:09
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    @RobertHarvey C knowledge is definitely on the way out... for students. This is a big problem for the industry.
    – Michael W.
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 20:34
  • Are most or all of your interns local? Maybe you just need to prod the local Institutes of Higher Education into changing the curiculum to encourage those other languages that you need as an employer. Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 20:47
  • @1201ProgramAlarm I personally don't need C knowledge at my workplace. This has been a problem for others in my geographic area, though.
    – Michael W.
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 22:02
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    As someone currently doing a swiss apprenticeship I can only back up what @JackStrosahl said. Most of my courses in school are either PHP or Java. Two, if you ask me, outdated languages
    – MindSwipe
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 6:46
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    @JackStrosahl Reality check: What do you think that the runtime and OS that your Java or C# runs on is written in? What language do you think the code for 50+ MCUs in your car was written in? If you got to work in time today without stopping halfways to update .NET, it wasn't written in f***n' C#.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 6:47
  • Anyway, @MichaelW. these trends tend be rather national. C# could be the current buzz word of the States and some other language will be the buzz word elsewhere. Take for example the smart phone market, where iPhone is quite dominant in the US specifically, but far less so everywhere else in the world where it is Android. This calls for a certain skill set for US app programmers specifically.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 6:55
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    @Lundin Just want to point out that the .NET Core "framework" is written mainly in C# with only small parts of C (check it out here) and that the CLR for .NET Core is also written in C# (check it out here) with an admittedly larger part being written in C++. But actually being executed is the JIT compiled IL generated by the CSC
    – MindSwipe
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 6:56
  • @MindSwipe: PHP is not a very useful language (unless you want to work on websites), however Java is still going strong, and the JVM is a host to a whole eocsystem of languages: Kotlin & Scala run on the JVM. I would still encourage you to check out other languages. Python (for scripting), SQL (so many databases), C and/or assembly (interface with computer), and just a dab of some more exotic languages "just to get a taste": Forth (catenative), Haskell/F# (functional), Prolog (declarative), ... aim for breadth. Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 6:57
  • sadly the homework questions have been here for ages, its amazing how many people come here and either happily admit its their homework, and then talk like theyve never been to a lesson, or claim teach said to do this without any insights at all.. Then when youve seen the same question 20 different ways you know its someones homework but they arent admitting it.. Sadly we live in a world where "why do the work when you can get someone else to do it" is getting stronger
    – BugFinder
    Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 12:46
  • How can Java be considered an outdated programming language? PHP I get due to the fact it’s a language built around an ecosystem that changes faster then a dog fetching a ball. Personally after working in C++ for a decade I am shocked it’s not used more. It continues to become a better language. Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 14:34
  • @SecurityHound I'm a little unclear about your comment regarding PHP of [PHP is] a language built around an ecosystem that changes faster then a dog fetching a ball. Do dogs playing fetch really change/move that quickly (or slowly?)? Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 18:38
  • My schnauzer is so quick, he can catch a ball in the air, it’s just indicating web language are changing constantly Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 18:45
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Part of it is the rate that newer technologies / frameworks are appearing.

For example with something like React, it is possible to have never built a website before and still be a React developer. You can have almost no understanding of the underlying technologies of HTML or how frameworkless JS works, and still be a React dev. This means that programming technologies which used to take a decade to get a grasp on now take much shorter time frame. And mostly, it's a good thing.

The downside of this is that newer developers are able to enter the ecosystem with almost no understanding of programming or IT as a "generalist". They may have no experience writing code outside of a specific framework. Thing like bootcamps, where they teach a specific stack in as little as 3 months, only increase this problem.

Of course technologies have always evolved, but the increase in accessibility as well as the occurrence of never before seen implementations of the new tech (as the result of more new tech being available than before) means that places like SO are going to see an increase in "laziness" of questions.

Of course there's also the migration of people towards this industry as a result in shifts to our economy.

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    This is something that I also consider as an important point. Not attempting to be nitpicking here, but 1. it does not apply to all tags (but primarily to the web-development stuff - that's on my 'ignore' list, for that matter...), and 2. this is not 'homework' in many cases, but just a sign of what you described adequately: Clueless people receive tasks that they are plainly unable to cope with, and after being stuck in the loop of "C&P code they don't understand - google for error message - change code" for a while, they desperately post a "FIX THIS FOR ME!" question here...
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 17:37
  • Hm. Bad example? React implies having to use a rather hefty technology stack just to be able to build things, Node.JS to begin with. Besides that, the framework itself pretty much requires intimate understanding of Javascript execution contexts, it's a this-binding-festival. It doesn't provide a complete package such as Angular does, you have to pick your own libraries for basic tasks. I found it a pretty steep learning curve as someone with more than a decade of experience under my belt, I can't imagine how complete novices experience it.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 11:51
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    @Gimby the mentality is still the same. I'm not trying to pick on React, but the fact is that someone with no prior coding experience can take a 3 month bootcamp and "learn" React / Firebase well enough to CRUD to a database and to display what they want on the page. Past that, they learn how to copy paste sample code from packages that they find to solve functions. It's the ultimate "copy, paste, code" mentality. Then whenever they stumble across an issue, they immediately make an SO question. Or even worse, a Github issue.
    – Nathanael
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 12:41
  • It's not that they're fools; in many cases it's actually the path of least resistance.
    – Nathanael
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 12:42
  • For example with something like Fortran, it is possible to have never built a numerical computation routine and still be a Fortran developer. The old arguments never die, they just get updated. Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 22:18
  • Like I said, I'm not trying to single out a specific technology. I supposed a key difference being that Fortran developers at their peak couldn't utilize StackOverflow. Outsourcing your learning was much less convenient than it is in modernity.
    – Nathanael
    Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 8:29
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Answering the question "When did it happen?" is difficult. There is no single point in time or single event that this could be pinned down to.

At best, one could say that at one point in time, stack overflow officially turned from a "site for professional and enthusiast programmers" into a place where Developers Learn, Share & ​Build Their Career, but that may not be the problem.

As others have mentioned: There always have been bad questions, and there always have been homework questions (and I'd say that there's a considerable overlap between the two, although not necessarily). And there always have been complaints about that. The questions have already been linked to, e.g. Decline in question quality on SO? from 2010, or Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late? from 2014.

(And as an aside: I, personally, still feel like I'm "new to the game", having joined stack overflow only 5 years ago, long after these questions have been asked)

So there is no reasonable answer to the question of "when" it happened. It happened and is still happening, constantly. Further, more specific questions could therefore be:

  • What exactly have you been observing? More beginner questions? More questions that could clearly be identified as 'homework' questions? More questions that show a lack of basic understanding?

  • Are there factually more homework questions? These are hard to identify, unless someone blatantly copies+pastes the assignment.

  • Are there factually more bad questions?

Depending on the answers, one could probably argue that your perception might be distorted, because you have gained a proficiency and competence in your field that causes you to perceive questions as "trivial", in some way, even though you might have asked similar ones 10 years ago.

Even if homework questions could be clearly identified, one could still ask whether their number increased for a particular tag because certain universities picked up the respective language as their teaching language. Go and look for homework questions in .

Regarding the last question, most veterans would say: Yes, certainly, there are more bad questions. And that may have a variety of reasons:

  • As a matter of fact, when there are more users, then there are more bad questions
  • Most of the "good" questions have already been asked (it is, so to speak, becoming harder to really as a good question)
  • (There are many more possible reasons. A very important one is the one that NathanL mentioned, but I won't elaborate this further here...)
  • There are no proper mechanisms or policies that keep the bad questions at bay

And I think that the last point is crucial. I hesitate to mention the word "welcoming" again. But to put it that way: When ten people (users=moderators!) are handling 1000 items of the review queues per day, then it might not matter when there are occasionally 1100 items in the queue. But if there are 2000 items, then the ten people (who are moderating the site, voluntarily, in their spare time, without being paid) might feel like herding cats, and simply give up. Again, not as a singular event in time. But when one of them drops out, it's becoming even more futile for the others, and therefore, this may still be a sudden, self-accelerating process that is much harder to be reversed than to be prevented in the first place.


However, I'd like to quote a recent comment by Jeff Atwood here:

If the solution to "beginners are not welcome" ends up being "experts are not welcome" then it is game over. I resisted it for years, too, but a separate, beginner focused stack overflow (with beginner oriented rules, and special beginner tooling) feels inevitable to me at this point if the site wants to survive.

Now, that's a surprisingly clear statement for me...

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    Also note that Atwood said, "Simple is fine. No effort and research is not". After 10 years a great number of simple and basic questions have been asked and answered ad nauseam. Also see Why is the “how to move the turtle in logo” question closed?.
    – jww
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 17:37
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    @jww Atwood famously hated the turtle question. Spolsky was the one in favor of it. I take a more nuanced view: there’s nothing wrong with simple or beginner questions. Why? Well, the criteria for judging what’s “simple” is subjective, and besides, simple questions deserve high-quality answers, too. Where I draw the line is whether it’s answerable in our format. If it’s too broad or too subjective, then it should definitely be closed. But I would strongly resist a “too simple” or “RTFM” close reason. If nothing else, having the simple questions answered allows them to serve as dupe targets.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 21:15
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    @CodyGray On the one hand, I perfectly agree: "simple" is subjective, and there may hardly be a "too simple", and asking a homework assignment as a question can be fine. Independent of that are the overall quality (clarity, formatting etc) and importantly: the longevity and future value that the OP mentioned. My impression is that there are forces that are pushing to tolerate questions that are bad in these regards, and these efforts are disguised as some odd form of compassion.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 22:23
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    Good questions don’t have to be complicated, they just need to be a good question, some of the best questions I have seen were subjectively simple. Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 14:39
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I don't know when, but I do know of a way to get to know when.

Just program a little site that shows users random questions without any date information attached from all years since the beginning of SO and let them decide if the question is a "professional and enthusiast programmers" question or if it is a "school and homework" question. Let different people do the judgment for a while. You will get numbers for each category and by some kind of bootstrapping probably also error estimates.

The hypothesis would be that there is a time where the ratio of the two categories has changed considerably from before to after. There must be some kind of statistical test method for it.

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    There was a simple "game" (that's currently not working due to Python 2.5) similar to this idea.
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 10:02
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    If done right, that'd be a good experiment to do. You do need to adjust for the fact that it takes time for the community to moderate the site, there is a long tail of off-topic and low-quality stuff still floating around. So 'bad stuff' is generally younger, but I don't know by what rate.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 10:43
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    @MartijnPieters The only way to do this experiment accurately would be to include deleted and closed questions, and possibly even use an early revision of the question, in order to see what a random sample of posts were like before any moderation. Or perhaps you could look at the state of every post X days after it was asked, to see posts with the moderation done to them reasonably quickly.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 13:47
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    @Servy yup, doing this correctly is hard. There are a large number of biases involved that need to be surfaced and compensated for. Using the post state at different points in time would perhaps help for some of those.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 14:22
  • Several of the auto-delete processes take 30 days, and I can't imagine a significant number of review-queue deletes would take longer than that (but I would be interested in statistics)
    – o11c
    Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 5:02
  • I would be interested to see the results because I don't believe it is that easy to tell the difference between someone who hasn't bothered and someone with very low skill, a high school kid or an adult self teaching and out of their depth.
    – The_Tams
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:01
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An inevitable result as the field of programming becomes more popular

  1. Hot field = More programmers
  2. Lower barriers of entry to programming = More self-taught programmers
  3. More programmers (including those points in 1. and 2.) willing to answer/tolerate simple questions
  4. Higher rate of new technologies introduced = More confusion = More questions
  5. SO is more well-known (including point 3)
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  • "More self-taught programmers" - nope. Almost impossible to get a programming job with my metallurgy degree (nearly 40 years old) these days. Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 12:15
  • "More self-taught programmers", this isn't necessary a bad thing - they have shown they have a passion. I think even the opposite is the case. When remembering back to my school, even in the last year other programmers have had problems with loops und object orientied design. This was a 3 year dual education (Part in Enterprise, part in School). Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 12:36
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    @MartinBonner You assume that those writing questions about programming have jobs in the field of programming Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 12:46
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit Good point. Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 12:47
  • @MartinBonner It happens very occasionally :D Actually, the fact that you're here rather supports the point :) Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 13:05
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    Regarding #2: All programmers are self-taught. What is the antonym - formally trained? If that reliably produced skilled programmers it would be a barrier to entry. What raised barrier would keep out self-taught programmers, and why would it be beneficial? I don't think the biggest problem is what people know when they enter the field. It's that the industry sucks at bringing people up to any sort of standard. We have no standards. A senior developer is the one who has worked at the company for a few years. We don't get better because, to a large extent, we can't tell the difference. Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 22:58
  • If anyone disagrees with me that we have no standards then we are mountains apart. My mountains suck. I've heard of your mountains but I don't know where they are. Send me a smoke signal or something so I can go be on your mountain. Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 23:01
  • Sorry, on a rant. Let me rephrase this more constructively. Imagine if new programmers got entry-level jobs and the people who already worked there, who had worked there for years, were good programmers. They could work with that new person and bring them up to a higher level. Over time the entire industry could raise itself up. We don't do that and often can't because the senior developers shouldn't be teaching anyone anything, ever. That's one reason why we have people floundering and struggling to understand basic concepts even after they have jobs. Commented Jul 4, 2019 at 23:16
  • @ScottHannen The word "self-taught" is indeed not an accurate description of the problem. It's a struggle to find a better definition. :( Btw there does exist formal courses to become a better programmer - e.g. computing degrees, scrum certifications, etc.
    – Cardin
    Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 1:04
  • 1
    Just because a programmer got a degree in Computer Science doesn’t mean they know how to program. I literally had to help my classmates on our Senior Project on how to write “for loops”, I ended up having to do it myself at the 11th hour because their attempts were completely and totally trash (ended up with a crude text table but it worked) Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 14:43
  • @SecurityHound Arguing about "whether formal certification is a useful indicator of skill" isn't the point I was trying to make. It was about lower barriers of entry and that the skill needed to start programming is lower.
    – Cardin
    Commented Jul 6, 2019 at 17:19
  • Also a result of various library/product creators saying, hey everyone, SO is our help forum. So whenever someone does this, they are exporting the no question is too basic mentality to SO. I think that this is one thing that would have to be stopped (it is an old problem, so i am not saying it is all of the sudden a bad problem).
    – demongolem
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 12:53

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