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I just received a Stack Overflow announcement email which concluded with this section:

Learn about the history of curl

Daniel Stenberg, the creator of curl, recently stopped by Stack Overflow to answer a question about why he dedicated his life to this open source project. It's a great example of what makes this community so special and a terrific read.

Check out his answer

It is a slightly interesting post, but the question is obviously off-topic by our current standards. It was closed (and briefly, deleted) within a day of being posted. It was then discussed on meta, with the outcome that the question remained closed, but was locked to preserve the interesting content.

Fine. I don't mind erring on the side of keeping interesting content.

But I do mind the company thinking it's appropriate to use this as an example of a "great" question in an announcement they're sending to tens of thousands(?) of users, one month after the community has clearly indicated that they do not believe it to be a suitable question at all.

The company should not undermine community moderation and standards in this way.

Update (June 2019)

The company has responded to our concerns by also adding the question to the new home page:

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  • 32
    [closed] that looks bad. Now I feel the urge to delete it just so the link appears as dead :) May 28, 2019 at 18:54
  • 9
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre Do it! :P You represent the community, and the community will is clear. We should not be beholden to the needs of Stack Overflow's marketing department.
    – Jeremy
    May 28, 2019 at 19:04
  • 14
    Well, I think I'll pass. Even if I deleted it (I'm on the fence about this story, and my comment was half a joke), it would be undeleted as "keeping worthy/interesting content", possibly by a SO employee. I'd just get lambasted. I'll delete more NAAs to make that up ... May 28, 2019 at 19:06
  • 23
    A community that can't deal with exceptional posts is doomed to drown in average. May 28, 2019 at 19:40
  • 14
    @HansPassant What's so exceptional about this post?
    – Servy
    May 28, 2019 at 19:45
  • 63
    Who the author of the answer is. that's pretty much the only thing exceptional about it. It hardly even answered the question asked.
    – Kevin B
    May 28, 2019 at 19:50
  • 10
    meh, it won't fall. it'll just continue becoming more and more of a code writing/help desk service, which it happens to be incredibly effective at. You don't need 10 year+ experts to repeat answers to constantly reoccurring questions.
    – Kevin B
    May 28, 2019 at 20:00
  • 3
    @HansPassant We deal with exceptional posts all the time; it's what the close and reopen queues are for. But seriously, there are plenty of on-topic Q&A pairs out there to celebrate, why can't we call attention to those? May 28, 2019 at 20:06
  • 5
    @HereticMonkey: Because if you're not a Python, C++, or Java programmer, those questions and their answers aren't meaningful. Indeed, even if you are a programmer in one of those fields, the answers are pretty esoteric (the Python one is topical for Python programmers, but the others are pretty niche). In short, these are niche answers for niche problems. By contrast, a post showing the thinking of a programmer with regard to their popular library is something that all programmers, regardless of their technical expertise, can learn from. In theory. May 28, 2019 at 20:16
  • 7
    @NicolBolas Actually, the Java one is widely applicable to any programming problem that deals with dates, since it covers the time discontinuity problem with historical time zone changes (one of the reasons I chose that particular Q&A pair). And branch prediction is also widely applicable across programming languages. And generators and yield are also... well you get the point. In short, they are not niche answers for niche problems. They are core to many, many problems in software development. I wish more people would read them closely. May 28, 2019 at 20:21
  • 13
    Those opposed to the preservation of this answer are all blaming the CMs, acting like this was something done by SO management for some kind of cynical motives and forced upon the community. That is completely untrue; I’ve been opposed to the deletion of that answer since day 1, and I have no ties to SO The Company. So acting like this is some kind of anti-community conspiracy is just wrong. Feel free to point some fingers at me, along with those you’ve all been pointing at Tim and Jon. And maybe realize that some disageeement in exceptional cases is normal, not a sign everything is crumbling. May 28, 2019 at 20:39
  • 4
    @TorontoRaptors "Do it! :P You represent the community, and the community will is clear" -- Are you sure about that? In the previous meta discussion, Yvette's answer on her decision to delete the question is currently at +88/-36, and Jon's answer on his decision to undelete it is at +90/-61. That doesn't suggest a consensus clear enough for relitigating this particular aspect of the matter.
    – duplode
    May 28, 2019 at 22:05
  • 4
    @duplode Fair. The community seems to be leaning towards deletion, but opinions are definitely more split than unanimous. The email is the larger concern, and Jean-François can't do anything about that.
    – Jeremy
    May 28, 2019 at 22:13
  • 3
    I can see why this part of the newsletter is rather counter-productive but I can also see why someone who has to write the newsletter included it (you can't just send blank newsletters, can you?). The wording is a bit unlucky; only a few words changed would already have done a big deal to get a more favorable reception here. Anyway I don't really care because I'm not subscribed to the newsletter. May 31, 2019 at 15:51
  • 15
    Stack Overflow is undermining community standards by promoting an off-topic question in its FREAKING HOMEPAGE!
    – Davy M
    Jun 27, 2019 at 18:08

6 Answers 6

133

I'll risk an answer, even if I feel that this subject is sensitive.

The announcement:

Daniel Stenberg, the creator of curl, recently stopped by Stack Overflow to answer a question about why he dedicated his life to this open source project.

No he did not "stop by". He's a long time contributor (10 years) with great answers and high reputation.

It's a great example of what makes this community so special

No, it's not. The question was closed as "opinion based" by 5 people, and deleted/undeleted. I chose to lock it at the time, so the contents are preserved. But that doesn't make it a "great example"

a terrific read.

Here I agree, finally.

Stack Overflow management advertised on that particular Q&A only because curl is popular and it's rare enough to have someone having made a tool answering here. But he's not the only one: The creator of Python also has a Stack Overflow account and answered on-topic questions.

Of course, seasoned users see that, click on the link, and immediately see the big red flags ([closed], [locked]). But external users just see the content (and a lot of ads too :)).

So management probably thought "we're going to attract new users, and if it's by linking to an off-topic question, well, it's not a problem".

It's clearly a problem for regular users. But if it attracts more people to Stack Overflow, well, it's like a bad advertisment for a good product.

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  • 6
    It was linked because it was interesting and just happened at the right time. As it's not the first time we've linked to content that's kind of controversial (in fact, it usually creates interesting discussions) nobody really thought to think further into it. In the first couple of years we'd frequently talk about these quickly famous questions, that's what led to the historical lock.
    – user50049
    May 28, 2019 at 19:49
  • 22
    I understand the idea. But I don't think you want to link the xkcd Q&A in 2019 though. May 28, 2019 at 19:51
  • 71
    "nobody really thought to think further into it" I think that's part of the problem.
    – jhpratt
    May 28, 2019 at 19:51
  • 4
    I wish it weren't locked. The answer deserves more upvotes. I recognize we can't unlock it without subjecting it to the turmoil of the open/close/deletion/undeletion cycle. May 28, 2019 at 20:36
  • 3
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre The problem with that is that neither the question nor the answerer get the benefit of those votes. May 28, 2019 at 20:43
  • 2
    no, not community wiki, community wiki lock, like here: stackoverflow.com/questions/1602934/…. Well, it's probably not a good idea "this Q&A is a collaborative effort". It's hijacking the feature. May 28, 2019 at 20:46
  • 37
    @GeorgeStocker if it was unlocked I'd downvote the question because its a bad question so it would allow that too (though now a-days it seems like upvote means "i like" and downvote means "I don't like" instead of being statements of quality so whatever I guess)
    – LinkBerest
    May 28, 2019 at 20:54
  • 62
    @GeorgeStocker - The problem with that is that neither the question nor the answerer get the benefit of those votes. You say that like it's a bad thing. It's neat that the author chimed in, but why would we want to reward off-topicness? You're essentially saying "This question doesn't belong here, but let's reward them anyways." May 28, 2019 at 20:58
  • 14
    not all off topic questions need to be deleted. There are a lot of closed/off-topic questions that are closed, but stay (because a lot of views). Don't mix closed & deleted. May 28, 2019 at 21:21
  • 61
    What I find a bit unfair about this whole thing is that the popularity of the answer is entirely predicated on who wrote it. If someone else without notability wrote that, just substituting curl for a random OS project they're working on, they would have been (rightly) downvoted and the question would be gone. I dislike the fact that popularity makes right over established norms here.
    – Magisch
    May 29, 2019 at 6:19
  • 44
    @NicolBolas I would posit that had anyone not widely known posted this with the exact same reasoning and explaination, but with some other OS project as source material, it would have been downvoted and deleted quickly. Even the newsletter introducing it starts off by saying who the author is, because thats literally the only thing seperating this answer from a generic NAA to a off topic question
    – Magisch
    May 29, 2019 at 6:52
  • 5
    @GeorgeStocker "the problem with that is that neither the question nor the answerer get the benefit of those votes" - I would say that in general, not giving askers rep from such questions is a great thing. In this case, the OP is a member since almost 9 years, has ~950 rep, and almost half of this is from the curl question and the association bonus. As we tie moderation privileges to rep, I fail to see how it would be justified to give OP the 1k tools from a question like this.
    – l4mpi
    May 29, 2019 at 14:23
  • 28
    @Magisch also, considering the usual line is 'even Jon Skeet should get downvoted if he asks or answers poorly', to showcase we care about the content, not who wrote it.... This whole thing is just a step in the other direction....
    – Patrice
    May 29, 2019 at 15:49
  • 4
    "a bad advertisment for a good product" - misleading advertisements lead to product misuse. It could very well just be increasing the proportion of off topic questions if people start using the site with a false sense of what's allowed here. May 31, 2019 at 11:55
  • 3
    "... nobody really thought to think further into it" and thus the crux of the problem with the management of the entire site ...
    – user10677470
    May 31, 2019 at 16:30
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It's pretty obvious that Stack Overflow the site has effectively reached peak users, but the investors aren't happy with that. End result is that Stack Overflow the company, and by extension its employees, are under pressure to pump up the user numbers - and if achieving that requires ignoring community standards, so be it.

Brace yourselves, ladies and gentlemen, because this is going to get worse before - if - it gets better.

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I have to disagree with the conclusion this post is based on the current charter of the site:

With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming.

it is basically based on a flawed premise on what the "community standards" are and what the endorsed community standards are now. What part of every is not clear?

There is a massive impedance mismatch between the unpaid volunteer content providers and curators and the site owners that profit in what they want on the site in order to increase profits.

I propose that the problem is that the your expectations and the "community standards" are not inline with the charter of the site anymore. It has been reinforced again and again, albeit indirectly, that the "community standards" around "quality" are no longer relevant and definitely not even important enough to mention in the charter anymore.

Diamond mods give lip service to "quality", and I understand why, they campaigned to get elected on that premise and they need to appease their base and they know now if they did not know before getting elected as mods they have no actual power to enforce quality standards. But the actual Powers That Be are utterly silent on it at best and implicitly dismissive at worse in round about blog posts that can not be responded to.

They can not just come out and say, yeah, quit close voting 99% of stuff because we need the ad traffic and new content drives ad traffic regardless of perceived quality, it would be likely be met with a mass revolt and rightly so. But they can not say that, obfuscate the public stats on how bad the quality actually is, and still let those donating their time keep deluding themselves that the community standards around quality from 5 years ago still mattered in the large and convince themselves they are not wasting their time.

8
  • I think you describe the different goals of the participating entities nicely, but still I would say that overall it works kind of. The operator is making money and people get help here and there is a library of detailed answers. Maybe it could be explored in more details. Look at all the shortcomings from the view point of all the stakeholders, make hypotheses how these shortcomings could be related to non-congruent goals, try to prove or disprove the hypotheses with available data, publish the results. May 31, 2019 at 16:00
  • @Trilarion great get on it! I have been designing and implementing co-op and adverserial and hybrid systems based on game theory for a couple of decades for $$$. Exactly the type of work you describe, not going to do it for free. Esp not for this site, not now.
    – user10677470
    May 31, 2019 at 16:08
  • 3
    "Diamond mods give lip service to "quality", [...] they campaigned to get elected on that premise and they need to appease their base". What would they need to "appease us" for? It's not like the profit of being mods, nor like the community could take away their diamond from them. I don't think community moderators are the problem (if there is a problem) here.
    – yivi
    May 31, 2019 at 16:13
  • 1
    @JarrodRoberson I can totally understand that you don't want to do difficult research for free. And I'm not sure, I could actually do it myself, even for money. Just wanted to kind of highlight that the conclusions in your answer are of a speculative nature. The way to get harder statements about these kind of things seems to be quite complicated. May 31, 2019 at 16:19
  • 4
    @yivi - where does it say community mods are the problem? When I specifically state they have no power to make policy contradicting the company decisions? They have to toe the party line if they want to stay mods. Many probably think they are doing what they are doing to work on change from the inside to get them to listen. Many have a personal political agenda, mostly "Every Question is Sacred!" is the hip one to have right now.
    – user10677470
    May 31, 2019 at 16:19
  • 3
    @Trilarion not speculation, there is plenty of evidence of it. And my experience has been where there is smoke there is fire. I am convinced, I do not need more convincing. More data would not change my mind it would just reinforce what it already is. I realized a long time ago, my reason for investing in the site 10 years ago were no longer the status quo when they took quality out of the charter. I stayed trying to advocate to put it back. I finally stopped deluding myself that it would ever happen and realized my investment was not longer valued or appreciated and quit the site.
    – user10677470
    May 31, 2019 at 16:23
  • 5
    ""community standards" around "quality" are no longer relevant", quite untrue. The SE team has every reason to promote quality, they are not evil villains hell bent on destroying the internet. At the very worst, they have made tradeoffs that may hurt quality, ones that you may strongly disagree with, but by no means did they decide quality is inconsequential. And no, quality isn't completely subjective, they don't have a polar opposite idea of what quality is.
    – Passer By
    May 31, 2019 at 17:39
  • 7
    @PasserBy - read for comprehension it says that the "community standards" around "quality" are no longer relevant" which means they do not care about "community standards" definition of "quality" and there is implicit statements of this in meta discussions and blog posts and where it is very clear that what the "community standards" thinks quality should be is not what the company thinks or agrees with and is too restrictive to grow revenue. That was clearly one of driving factors to take the word out of the charter years ago.
    – user10677470
    May 31, 2019 at 17:51
-20

By some measures, the question which produced this artifact is off topic.

By some measures, the answer is a highly interesting artifact, offering insight into the mind of the developer behind an important piece of technology. If my platform, which is intended to produce highly interesting artifacts, were responsible for producing that artifact, I certainly would want to show it off, to be a recent example that my platform produces such artifacts.

Furthermore, it's a good advertising showpiece from their perspective, because understanding it requires little technical background. You don't need to know the details of libcurl or whatever to understand what's being discussed; most programmers can get the gist of the issues. Compare that to a deep meditation on some esoteric aspect of <insert language here>; that will only be of interest to people who use that language.

What it doesn't show is the way our site is supposed to work: a good question creating a good answer. And that's certainly unfortunate.

But from the perspective of SO users, the only real question is this: will popularizing a strong answer produced by a question we would rather not have been asked cause more such questions to be asked?

For this case? I rather doubt it.

As Jon Ericson pointed out, of all of the classes of bad questions that exist, this class of bad question is far from the most popular. Will someone eventually ask such a question, get it closed, and then defend its presence on Meta by citing this one? That's pretty much guaranteed, probably within the year. Will that make their question not close-worthy?

No.

Overall, I think the fear that making an exception for this question will somehow open the floodgates for tons and tons of crap, or otherwise somehow means that we don't have rules, is just overblown. Rules exist and are important, even if exceptions occasionally get made.

We're all programmers, so on some level, we like it when rules are rules and that's the rules. But the real world isn't programming, and if the letter of the rules (this question is off-topic) occasionally gets in the way of their spirit (make the Internet better), then I would say that picking the spirit in those cases does not in any way disrespect the rules themselves. They rules simply are not being slavishly and mechanically followed.

This is essentially a reiteration of the whole deletionist-fight that we had way back when the historical lock was invented. What do you do about stuff that is off-topic, but happened to produce highly interesting and useful content? The difference is that most of the anti-deletionists have left SO for various reasons over the years, so the pro-deletionist sentiment is far stronger today (which, BTW, is precisely what the anti-deletionists were most concerned about with the "compromise" that was enacted. A compromise enacted by fiat, BTW, but surprisingly I don't see people having a big problem with that exercise of SE's power). But the anti-deletionist sentiment among Stack Exchange the company probably hasn't changed.

So yeah, you're probably going to get some disagreement on specific cases. But that doesn't invalidate the general rule.

So just keep moving forward as is.

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  • 17
    somehow I"ve read this as "keep moving downward"
    – gnat
    May 28, 2019 at 20:07
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    Will someone eventually ask such a question, get it closed, and then defend its presence on Meta by citing this one? Pretty sure the defense will be, "Well, how can the creator answer if you close it? You have to give it a chance!" Which, honestly, is a pretty valid argument, if we want to be consistent about how we do curation.
    – fbueckert
    May 28, 2019 at 20:22
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    The anti-deletionists haven’t all left. At least one of them won a moderator election. I couldn’t agree more with your impatience at the “slippery slope” argument. It just isn’t one. May 28, 2019 at 20:25
  • 1
    In addition to deletionists and inclusionists, I see another relevant divide between what we might call literalists (who insist on hard rules that are easy to enforce) and contextualists (who primarily see content moderation as a matter of editorial judgement).
    – duplode
    May 28, 2019 at 22:32
  • Can you link to the discussion on the invention of the historical lock?
    – Passer By
    May 29, 2019 at 16:45
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    @PasserBy: Sadly no. For reasons that are beyond me, the Powers That Be thought it "wise" to delete all of the discussion that preceded their mandate. You can do search on MSE for "Historical lock" and find some of the after-discussion. But you will not be able to find much on the discussion that led to it itself. You can probably infer from various statements around March 6, 2012, what the positions were and who supported what, but nothing much more than that, I'm afraid. May 29, 2019 at 17:03
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    @PasserBy: Although, this post on a deletion audit in 2012 is probably the seed that started the ball rolling. May 29, 2019 at 17:04
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I believe the problem(?) is that SO provides no forum for these kind of things. No fun allowed!

There was apparently a blog service in parallel with the site for a while, but nobody knew it existed until it was closed down. "Wait, what, we had blogs!? Oh well..."

I don't think it would be very controversial to have a sister-site with blogs which could be connected to for example SO tags, with related content. Then we could simply dump all these "historical lock" threads there instead. Blogs, jokes, book recommendations, political rants, you name it.

It would sate the SO purists - the main site is kept clean. It would sate the people who like to have these kind of posts. It would sate the company - no loss of traffic/site attention.

And not to be underestimated, it would save meta, moderators and community managers from a whole lot of drama :)

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  • 3
    They tried this. It was the "programmers" site. And it just created way more problems than it solved, hence why it went away.
    – Servy
    May 29, 2019 at 14:31
  • 3
    @Servy The problems there started when random people started to outline random things that would be on- or off-topic. Basically the purists hijacked it, but without ever formulating clear guidelines or consensus what the site was actually about. The root of the problem was probably the Q&A format. Just as that format is the root of many problems here on meta.
    – Lundin
    May 29, 2019 at 14:35
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    I like this suggestion. User blogs were once proposed as a 30k privilege, with many users in support. Stack Overflow would get the brand lift from being associated with the posts, users would get another perk, and we wouldn't have to worry about these posts distracting from the Q&A moderation principles.
    – Jeremy
    May 29, 2019 at 14:57
  • 14
    This isn't a question about needing another place for this stuff to be stored. The answer in question is available in its entirety on the personal blog of the author. People don't want to shove it somewhere else because it already is somewhere else and yet we can't seem to delete it. That's my biggest problem with this whole debate; I don't think anybody disagrees that the answer is a better fit for a blog than for Stack Overflow, and it is already on a blog.
    – Davy M
    May 29, 2019 at 15:07
  • 1
    How does this answer the question? The least you could state was that the question is in fact worthy to be promoted, if that was your intent.
    – Passer By
    May 29, 2019 at 16:25
  • 1
    I like the idea, but it's not the problem. This unfamous question would have been featured by the staff regardless of any blogging functionality for users. May 31, 2019 at 15:39
  • 3
    Note that traffic to Not Programming Related only got the point of a stable community after they got guidelines. Before that there was a huge novelty spike right off the bat, then it all but drowned in its own crap.
    – user4639281
    May 31, 2019 at 21:49
-62

There are a number of exceptional things about the question that make it an artifact as much as a question, and it's that property that we embraced in the newsletter.

Given the rarity of something that exceptional, it would be a shame not to draw some attention to it. We can't say the question isn't valuable when we go to the trouble of having a lock just to preserve the value of it.

And if it's valuable, it's worth sharing.

That's not undermining, that's just taking a second to embrace something pretty awesome that we don't see very often, with a sign clearly stating that it's not a great example of a question we're currently good at answering.

The argument for having those questions back in the day was "Well, what if the author of [thing] signed up and wanted to answer, couldn't there be a correct answer to the question then?" and that's precisely what happened here.

If we didn't have something that said hold on, this doesn't match up with what we want in a question right now then yes, it would have been a mistake.

But in this case we just celebrated something really cool together, nothing was undermined :)

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  • 46
    I think I can sum up our concerns as follows: We don't care if it's notable, a historical artefact, or rare. The question is off-topic and should be deleted.
    – jhpratt
    May 28, 2019 at 19:40
  • 37
    This "artifact," irrespective of if it's a good one or not, is available in its entirety on the author's personal blog. Why not link there if you think it's something worth drawing attention to instead of a closed question on Stack Overflow?
    – Davy M
    May 28, 2019 at 19:41
  • 28
    "There are a number of exceptional things about the question that make it an artifact as much as a question" But there is nothing exceptional about the question. The exceptional part is the answer. They aren't the same thing. May 28, 2019 at 19:41
  • 17
    @TimPost Personally? Yes, get rid of historical locks.
    – jhpratt
    May 28, 2019 at 19:42
  • 29
    I was among the loudest advocates for the historic lock when it was introduced, but one-day-old posts were not what I was thinking of as "historic".
    – Jeremy
    May 28, 2019 at 19:49
  • 10
    A one-day-old post answered by the author of curl about why he put so much time into it is instantly historic.
    – user50049
    May 28, 2019 at 19:50
  • 45
    The compromise was, "okay, in the past there were some questions asked that were not in line with today's standards, but they produced interesting and useful posts. So let them stand as is; we'll put an historical lock on them, that explicitly states that they are allowed to remain because previously, the standards were different." Historically locking a new post is taking a crap on that compromise. Hand waving it away with "b-b-but it was the author of curl!!!1!!" while simultaneously crapping on the compromise does not endear you to the people on the other side of the compromise. May 28, 2019 at 20:00
  • 28
    If the question was actually on-topic, sure. Who posts something shouldn't matter; we've always been focused on post quality, not the user. Now, suddenly, who someone is matters? Like I told Jon, we've now got a giant gaping loophole in enforcing quality standards.
    – fbueckert
    May 28, 2019 at 20:01
  • 14
    I'd certainly agree that it deserves the historical lock and is worth preserving. But you're doing much more than drawing attention to it in the mail, you're declaring it "a great example of what makes this community so special". I don't think the sky is falling down when we break the rules a bit for the occasional exceptional post, it won't suddenly cause an influx of off-topic content. But SE actively highlighting content in a newsletter carries a lot more weight, and has much, much more potential for confusion. May 28, 2019 at 20:02
  • 20
    @NicolBolas I don't know the target audience of this newsletter, but I suspect it's somewhat confusing to less active SE users if a question that is actually off-topic is hailed as a great example. To me attracting answers like this from the people that wrote popular software is more like a side effect of creating a great community. I'm also a bit annoyed because SE should know that this mail would trigger some entirely unnecessary drama, because it plays perfectly into the narrative that SE doesn't understand their community anymore (whether this is true or not, doesn't matter). May 28, 2019 at 20:31
  • 13
    @NicolBolas That's about the most uncharitable interpretation of your quote you could have come up with. Was that irony intentional?
    – Servy
    May 28, 2019 at 21:37
  • 28
    @TimPost "A one-day-old post answered by the author of curl about why he put so much time into it is instantly historic." - don't vote on users, vote on content!!!!
    – piet.t
    May 29, 2019 at 8:53
  • 14
    reception of this answer, and more generally, of staff actions regarding that curl post could have been better if SO team made some room for reciprocity
    – gnat
    May 30, 2019 at 19:09
  • 13
    "A one-day-old post answered by the author of curl about why he put so much time into it is instantly historic" by that reasoning, it was instantly off-topic before he answered it and should have not been answered and should have been closed before it was answered. Then again, Every Question is Sacred! is the endorsed culture now.
    – user10677470
    May 31, 2019 at 15:10
  • 13
    I don't think it's really very valuable here. The blog entry on the personal site of Stenberg is many times more valuable. It hardly needs to be preserved here and should mainly redirect to the version on this blog. Just my opinion. May 31, 2019 at 15:46

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