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A few days ago I flagged this question (See revision 1 here, the content has since been restored) for moderator attention with the comment, "Link only to code on jsFiddle example which leads to a 404".

This question has essentially zero content since it contains no code, and the fiddle it links to is 404. The only text in the question is "How would you make the exact code in the link above work for the slide toggle in Bootstrap 3.0?"

The response I received to the flag was "declined - Using standard flags helps us prioritize problems and resolve them faster. Please familiarize yourself with the list of standard flags: see What is Flagging?"

What was the logic behind declining the flag?

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    I didn't handle the flag and I don't presume to speak for the moderator who did, but I would have been inclined to decline the flag as well. It doesn't need a moderator to close/delete that question when the community can do it.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:32
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    FYI, the content was available via archive.org. I've pasted it in and removed the dead link.
    – Bart
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:34
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    @ChrisF It's a five year old question I happened to stumble upon. I doubt that it will receive the attention it needs for the community to close it. If it wasn't closed naturally by now, why do you think the community will now do it?
    – j08691
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:35
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    Doesn't a new close vote push it back in the queue? Not entirely certain.
    – Bart
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:35
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    @Bart - a new close vote should push it back onto the queue.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:37
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    @Bart Even if it did, it was still days ago and even the bump didn't attract any new attention
    – j08691
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:38
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    @j08691 I must admit that I didn't initially spot the age of the question. Even so that would have been my first reaction. As I said, I didn't handled the flag and I can't speak for the moderator who did. I have made them aware you've asked this question.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:46
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    Don't get me wrong, but there are probably hundreds of thousands of such old low quality questions. The correct way is to vote accordingly. End of story. The garbage was rotting for years already, there is no need to occupy moderator time here.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 11:40
  • @Bart - What about the incompatible copyright? Does it change because it was at archive.org?
    – BSMP
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 22:12
  • IANAL @BSMP. I could have restored the link to jsfiddle.net/274NN/5 , but that still would have left the questions in a bad state. If either the OP or jsfiddle have a problem wit this, they can issue a takedown request I guess ... let's wait and see? ;)
    – Bart
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 22:19
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    @Bart In general, please don't copy code from off-site into posts on SE when you are not the copyright holder. Only the copyright holder has the right to re-publish and re-license the code, which is what you do when you put it into a SE question. Please see Pasting Fiddle snippet into original question as an edit and Edits that add OP's code from 3rd party site where the license is unavailable. It would, however, have been quite reasonable to update the link to point to the archive.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 0:51
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    @Makyen I attempted that just now, but of course such links can no longer be posted without accompanying them with code. So if you have a better option, by all means edit it as you wish.
    – Bart
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 9:52
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    FWIW, if you get a case like this you can ask for help in SOCVR. Normally we don't consider closing old questions unless they get new attention but if link breaks to make it useless then you can ask for help getting it closed. The chances of the close vote queue working in cases like this is basically nill :( Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 14:27

4 Answers 4

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Using standard flags helps us prioritize problems and resolve them faster. Please familiarize yourself with the list of standard flags.

The standard flag for a question that does not contain all the information needed to answer it in the question is either "Unclear what you are asking" or "Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. " [Emphasis in original]

Either of those flags can be applicable, thus no need to use a custom mod flag. If it's not covered by those flags, you'll need to explain why in the mod flag, but the explanation you're giving here can be done as either of those two flags already.

I'm not a mod, so one might have more insight, but that's the general reasoning behind that decline reason.

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    Yes, the lack of code is the close reason I actually used. However since the question was so old, it apparently attracted no attention from anyone else, hence the mod flag to handle it.
    – j08691
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:40
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    @J08691 Do you mean you actually used the lack of code close reason and that flag aged away before you raised a mod flag, or did you just start with the mod flag? If the latter, that's what the flag decline reason is telling you, to use the general purpose flags/votes.
    – Davy M
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:42
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    I voted to close as off-topic because there was no code first. Also note the OP hasn't been on the site in five years, asked only this question, never answered any other questions, and never accepted the sole answer given.
    – j08691
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 22:42
  • @J08691 That's probably something you should mention in your question then, that way if a Mod looks at the question, they respond to that concern instead of saying the same general thing I've shared.
    – Davy M
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 0:20
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    @j08691 Our close vote queue has 10k items is a known issue, but mod flag is not a workaround...
    – user202729
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 3:35
  • @j08691 - This might have been a situation to post in the SO Close Vote Reviewers room, though it shouldn't be a habit. :-) Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 15:38
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I declined the flag for exactly the reasons described to you already. If you flagged because a close vote aged away you should at least have mentioned this circumstance. However, I probably still would have declined the flag; closing posts is something that he community can handle, and as shown here the post was even recoverable with an edit.

And if a post is so rarely visited that it took five years before the first close vote to arrive, then it really is not an urgent problem had it stayed open and unedited for another few years.

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    side note, speaking of mods closing questions. While I generally support them leaving it to community I have one concern regarding python tag - per my observations it has unusually many very poor questions hanging at insufficient close votes. I've been scratching my head trying to figure what's up until I realised that close voters in this tag have lost at least 6 active users who are now moderators (you, Aaron, Andy, Jon Clements, Bhagrav, ThiefMaster). How about you guys making a habit to visit close queue filtered on your "home tag" and helping with a few close votes?
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 10:55
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    @gnat: I'm also actively closing posts as I find them, and my votes apply instantly so that keeps posts from entering the queue in the first place. deceze is also active in Python and according to moderator stats, easily outpaces my post closing rates. The Python community is large and has a well run and very active chat room, why not ask there what they see can be done here?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 11:09
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    I lately started to hang around more in the python chat room, and I believe that between that one, php, javascript and the lounge, people in python chat are exceptionally understanding, sometimes too much, if I may. Some users are usual close votes casters, but generally the question need to be really bad for people to get involved. Maybe that also participates to what gnat describes... Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 20:04
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    @gnat per my observation, you haven't been on many of the close messages I have seen. This could be a time-zone issue, or you're not exercising your own powers. You know that mods aren't paid, right? The Python tag is massively fortunate for the mods it has; that doesn't mean you can just sit back.
    – roganjosh
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 21:29
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    @roganjosh CV review stats page says I am #4 top with 56443 reviews
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 21:45
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    @gnat yeah, ok, I definitely can't argue with that :P I still won't stand for an argument that the mods that happen to use Python could do more, but now I've lost my stick to hold ground :P The users need to be more active
    – roganjosh
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 21:50
  • @FélixGagnon-Grenier the room has its own variation of "rules" related to to close voting (sopython.com/wiki/cv-pls)
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 22:00
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    Isn't the issue of close flags/votes aging away itself a sign that the community can't handle this on its own? Last time I checked, the CV queue was swamped and closevotes were still aging away - a clear sign that the community is overwhelmed and needs help. Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 22:34
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    @RobertColumbia that I will agree with. The Python tag is just simply flooded. And it's only going to get worse:reddit.com/r/Python/comments/9y972g/… . Good for humanity, bad for SO.
    – roganjosh
    Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 22:41
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    @gnat, While looking at some unrelated data, some of us in the sobotics room did notice the severe lack of reviewers in Python tag a few months back and reported it to the Python room owners. The python room has a concept of asking for close vote reviews, by asking a cv-pls. However, when I checked the latest one here it still wasn't closed even after a couple of days, which shows that there aren't much active reviewers there as well (we can potentially blame the weekend for this particular example).
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 20:05
  • What we need is a way to motivate more and more 3k users to review, which I have no idea how to do. The last person who tried to incentivize them by offering bounties ended up in a bad position.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 20:06
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    to avoid misunderstanding, I think that ideal solution for the case of python would be to give tag badge holders a bit of extra votes. I think this tag has enough users who are qualified and willing to handle poor quality stuff if they were given a bit of extra power. But... this is just unlikely to happen so my proposal is kind of fallback, next best thing so to speak (which is definitely worse than ideal but still)
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 11, 2018 at 3:03
  • @gnat somewhere along the way, I think the Python tag will exemplify the need for change. The signal-to-noise ratio continues to fall as it becomes more popular as a teaching language, and now it's just been declared the official teaching language of France. Whilst great for humanity (IMO!) it's also, inevitably, throwing more assignment dumps or poorly-researched/asked questions our way. I spend a lot of time on the tag and it's a nightmare to keep on top of.
    – roganjosh
    Commented Dec 11, 2018 at 9:44
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The real, underlying issue here (root cause) is close flags/votes aging away itself, and the inability for users to actually accomplish tasks with the tools that have been made available to them. Isn't that a sign that the community can't handle this on its own? Every time I have checked, the CV queue was swamped and closevotes were still aging away - a clear sign that the community is overwhelmed and needs help. On many other Stack Exchange sites, the CV queue is very short, and aging away is a non-issue or at least a very rare one, so we have a process that is good in theory but in practice is broken.

So, the community simply can't handle all of the close flags/close votes that get raised (a large percentage age away), but mods aren't willing to step in and help. They have instant closure privileges - imagine how much we could shorten the CV queue if each mod spent 10 minutes a day reviewing in there. There's a difference between "Mods don't handle things the community can handle" and "Mods don't handle things that the mods think the community ought to be able to handle, even if it actually can't".

So what can we do about it? I see a few different options:

  • Diamond moderators need to get involved on a regular basis in the Close Votes queue, or otherwise start working to close questions that should be closed. With a smaller CV queue, non-diamond, 3k+ users will be able to address more close flags/votes and get them handled before they age away.
  • Diamond moderators need to not automatically Decline custom/"Other" flags for closure when it is evident that closure via the normal process is unlikely. They should instead evaluate the question as a candidate for closure and close the question/mark the flag as Helpful when 1) the question is closeable and 2) it is reasonably evident that a "normal" close flag or close vote would have aged away.
  • Instead of aging away close flags/close votes, show them to moderators. That is, they will behave entirely as they currently do (sending posts into the CV queue) unless they age away, at which point they will go to a moderator queue instead of simply being marked as Aged Away. I could see this working somewhat similarly to the current processing for NAA flags - the community can handle them, but if it can't or won't, the flags will still be shown to moderators rather than being sent straightaway to the bit bucket. Perhaps the moderator could see this in their queue - "Close vote/flag - Community unable to handle in reasonable timeframe".
  • Ordinary users need more closevoting power - perhaps more closevotes, closevotes at a lower rep level, or more powerful close votes (e.g. wider dupehammer capability).
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    Diamond moderators using their time in the close vote queue would just mean that something they do now will not be handled. In the end we might come up with a empty close-vote queue and a pile of custom flags that isn't touched. What we really need is that all users spend more time closing questions.
    – BDL
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 13:34
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    @BDL after all these years, it seems pretty clear that user time in the CV queue isn't going to be going up all that much. When stuff that needs to get done isn't getting done, what do you do? You escalate it! If citizens aren't reporting crime, you increase police patrols. Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 13:38
  • This only works if you also increase the number of policeman. You could install more moderators, but the best people for this are the ones who already use their votes. So the total number might not increase that much.
    – BDL
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 13:40
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    @BDL still, that works. Deputizing additional users with diamonds (or even Closer-Only Jr. Diamonds) would give them greater tools (unlimited close votes, instant closure privileges) that could really help them burn down the CV queue. Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 13:45
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    I keep bringing up this proposal by Shog, which I think could actually help a lot in reining in the flood of low quality stuff.
    – yivi
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 19:21
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    I dont think moderators should be handling close flags. I think close flags should be disabled. I think doing so would drastically reduce the volume of the close vote queue, and in-turn the amount of close votes aging away. I think more questions that need to be closed would get closed, and there would be less questions that dont need to be closed in the close vote queue.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 22:37
  • @RobertColumbia - Really? You don't look at why it isn't being reported or the impact of it not being reported? You don't reconsider if the stuff actually needs done or not or if it is worth perhaps changing the law? You just throw resources at it and hope that resolves it? Do you assess what the impact of throwing more resources at the problem is (i.e. where you are pulling those resources from) or do you just wait for that to become an issue and then throw the resource at that again? Commented Dec 11, 2018 at 11:25
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In general, you shouldn't mod-flag for stuff that the community can, in principle, handle itself. Mod-flags are for things like repeated vandalism, sock-puppetry, voting rings and fraud, etc. As indicated elsewhere, the correct close reason is off-topic for lacking a MCVE. An off-site link to code does not count as a MCVE.

The fact that so many close votes on low-quality questions age away is a separate issue.

If you have a question that's eligible for fast-track closure, there's always the SOCVR chat room (but questions generally need to have recent activity or be part of a broader burnination or cleanup effort to be posted there, so it wouldn't have helped in this case).

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    In fact, I see that as a symptom of a perverse problem - the community simply can't handle all of the close flags/close votes that get raised (a large percentage age away), but mods aren't willing to step in and help. They have instant closure privileges - imagine how much we could shorten the CV queue if each mod spent 10 minutes a day reviewing in there. There's a difference between "Mods don't handle things the community can handle" and "Mods don't handle things that the mods think the community ought to be able to handle, even if it actually can't". Commented Dec 9, 2018 at 22:37

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