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Judging from the 16 million questions on Stack Overflow vs. the less than half a million combined on sites like Server Fault and Super User (barely 51K on Software Engineering), isn't it time to re-evaluate if these should be their own sites? The overlap in questions seems fairly large and obviously these other communities aren't quite growing at the same rate (seem to be dying actually).

Sure, hardcore adherent may favor more focused subsites, but from the difference in scale it seems the majority prefer the one with the larger audience, Stack Overflow.

I'm sure there's value from a business perspective keeping these fragmented, but from a modern developers standpoint, I (and apparently the vast majority of others) just want to go to one place for all things computer stuff. I need to be a programmer, dev ops guru, system admin, and data science wonk daily. Please make my life simpler.

And I really don't want to use the aggregated Stack Exchange. For anything. Ever. Mostly because I don't find answers searching your site, I find them searching Google, DuckDuckGo, etc. and Stack Overflow seems to have the domain authority to grab the headlines.

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  • Related meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/322468/… Sep 23, 2018 at 3:33
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    I'm sorry, are Server Fault and Super User failing in any way? Do they not get a large number of questions per-day? Are there loads of questions that don't get answered? If these sites are perfectly functional, why should SO expand its scope beyond programming to "all things computer stuff". Sep 23, 2018 at 4:06
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    "I need to be a programmer, dev ops guru, system admin, and data science wonk daily. Please make my life simpler." We're not here to make your life simpler. You are the one coming to us for information. We've decided, for the betterment of our system that provides that info, that we will split up these things into distinct sites where distinct groups of experts can gather to provide good answers. This works. If you don't want to be a part of that, that's up to you. But you don't have the right to demand that we change just because you don't want to be bothered to work within our system. Sep 23, 2018 at 4:08
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    Stack Exchange is the umbrella that joins them; you go to the Stack Exchange with your question, and find the right place for it. And this division does make your life simpler by getting your question before the eyes of the people most likely to answer it. Just imagine Stack Overflow, Server Fault and Super User as super-duper-mega-tags on questions that each have a huge amount of followers... because if we did merge the sites, then we would need tags like that and it would just be more cluttered.
    – Davy M
    Sep 23, 2018 at 4:17
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    What problem are you trying solve here?
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Sep 23, 2018 at 5:01
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    Because Star Wars Sep 23, 2018 at 8:00
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    @NicolBolas I believe I'm a contributing community member helping provide information, so all you we's include me. There are no demands, it's a question for discussion backed with my rational why I'm asking it, please don't Trump me and insert words/intentions on my behalf. Assuming this is a community and not a tyranny, everyone has full right to question it's direction/decisions without fear of abuse. Love-it-or-leave it betrays weak minds. Finally, maybe change your comment to an answer backed by some details, like a link to the vote that was taken to decide to split these sites.
    – Ray
    Sep 23, 2018 at 12:04
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    @yivi thanks. I get that meta votes act differently, but they definitely come off as "how dare you not ask such things, go away". Definitely got that hostility vibe going on.
    – Ray
    Sep 23, 2018 at 12:08
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    It's not hostility, it's that many users disagree with the premise of the question, and votes in meta are used to indicate such. If you perceive hostility, it's simply because you are not used to this side of the site mechanics and culture. Since votes have no consequences here, they are caste much more liberally (both down and up).
    – yivi
    Sep 23, 2018 at 12:10
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    @DavyM this sounds reasonable, why not make it an answer?
    – Ray
    Sep 23, 2018 at 12:22
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    Calling two major sites "kiddies pool" also has some vibe. Sounds like a bad idea, poorly researched and poorly presented -1
    – brasofilo
    Sep 23, 2018 at 13:40
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    @brasofilo fair point. Updated my question to remove the snarky phase.
    – Ray
    Sep 23, 2018 at 13:47
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    To present a solid case against The Trilogy, you'll have to do some historical digging: The Stack Overflow Trilogy, The Rule of Three, One Year of Stack Overflow, Building Social Software for the Anti-Social, How do we grow the Server Fault and Super User communities?, etc
    – brasofilo
    Sep 23, 2018 at 14:07
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    @brasofilo I would add to that multiple thorough discussions at MSE
    – gnat
    Sep 23, 2018 at 16:57
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    Agree, now I have a question about mitmproxy in docker, it is question for serverfault.com/search?q=mitmproxy (46 results) but really almost all people ask such questions in stackoverflow.com/search?q=mitmproxy (643 results), so I must break rules and ask in stackoverflow? Oct 17, 2019 at 7:25

2 Answers 2

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What's to be gained closing down Server Fault and/or Super User?

While some overlap may exist, the scope for each of the sites is markedly different. We have other sites with a much stronger overlap, and they still provide a place for a different crowd to gather.

Conflating scope would only make curating content harder, and inhibit the other sites continue growing and building its own culture and identity, separate from Stack Overflow. The fact that there are sites that are not growing at the same pace than Stack Overflow doesn't mean that they are not growing, and as such is not a solid reason to close them down.

Your argument for closing them and merging these sites into Stack Overflow revolves around making the life of multi-role IT person simpler, but I argue it would be just the opposite.

Yes, we could have only one big Q&A site for all the questions and answers (even those that are not related to IT), and just use tags to sort out and find topics... but that would just make finding things considerably harder, and moderating the community much more difficult.

Defficient search tools would suffer even more, and the added difficulties in moderation/curation would make it so that more posts of questionable quality remain on the site, decreasing the signal/noise ratio.

And if you are already using external search tools (as you should, we all know that SE search is not enough), maybe you should be asking to the maintainers of those tools to improve their results so a single site does not dominate the search results. I know that Google at least does try to work into that direction, by for example grouping results coming from the same site.

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    I find a single source for truth has bigger impact than fragmentation. Only when things deviate far from what something is, does splitting make sense for me. For example, you've got dictionary vs. a thesaurus. I've not moderated much, so I'm not familiar with the cost/difficulty, but that seems plausible as is the argument the other sites are growing.
    – Ray
    Sep 23, 2018 at 12:15
  • I think it would help if the brief of the two sites were clearer, e.g. ServerFault - stuff relating to servers, SuperUser - stuff relating to home/personal computers. As it is, the distinction seems to be based on whether you are acting in a professional capacity or not, which naturally leads to a lot of overlap and makes it confusing to know where to post your question.
    – HappyDog
    Jun 23, 2020 at 21:38
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I think the OP is 100% correct.

I would also like to add a rebuttal to the comments section and to @yivi's answer, after researching the history of the "trilogy" a bit more.

And then in the second part present an argument for why this change should, and ultimately will anyway, be made.

Rebuttal:

Response to @yivi:

@yivi's central point attacks a straw man:

Yes, we could have only one big Q&A site for all the questions and answers (even those that are not related to IT), and just use tags to sort out and find topics... but that would just make finding things considerably harder, and moderating the community much more difficult. (yivi's emphasis)

Yes, merging all the sites into Stack Overflow, including Dungeons & Dragons and Physics and Philosophy etc would make no sense at all and that's probably why no one proposed that.

What @yivi should have asked, rather, and what the OP alluded to, is if Stack Overflow already scales to 16 million questions and 150,000 tags, including 30,000 questions on assembler, and 7,000 questions on embedded C, that require more hardware knowledge than a sysadmin, and 6,000 questions tagged "artificial intelligence" that probably require a maths degree, and not to mention 10,000 tagged Ansible (is Ansible programming...?), nearly 50,000 questions on Docker (isn't that just a packaged up Linux?), 70,000 tagged Amazon Web Services, another 70,000 tagged Azure -

Why would it not also scale to questions about Linux?

@yivi also notes:

While some overlap may exist [between SO, SF & SU], the scope for each of the sites is markedly different. We have other sites with a much stronger overlap, and they still provide a place for a different crowd to gather.

And fair enough. But this line raises the question of what our actual job is here as volunteers at the Stack Exchange network. Are we here to hang out with like-minded volunteers, or are we trying to make quality documentation for the global tech industry? Because the next time someone is struggling with the intricacies of Amazon's DynamoDB, it's not much use if the answer is buried in the Database Administrator's Stack Exchange site under the dynamodb tag.

(I didn't know that site even exited until I just checked the list.)

Helping ourselves have a good time with other like-minded people surely isn't the point.

Response to Nicolas Bolas:

This is upvoted 14 times at the time of writing:

We're not here to make your life simpler. You are the one coming to us for information. We've decided, for the betterment of our system that provides that info, that we will split up these things into distinct sites where distinct groups of experts can gather to provide good answers. This works. If you don't want to be a part of that, that's up to you. But you don't have the right to demand that we change just because you don't want to be bothered to work within our system.

Never mind that the OP is an answerer here with a rep of 27k. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jeff. And He said split up the site into distinct groups of experts. And He saw that it was good. And it works.

Well sorry but "it works" isn't an argument or a response. At all. 14 upvotes for restating a dogma. I don't think it works at all. At the time of writing, I just checked Server Fault, and I can barely distinguish the content of questions there from the questions here.

Every single question, in one way or another, is about writing code.

Why change is inevitable:

I began my career as a Unix/Linux system administrator in the late 1990s, whereas I am now a full stack developer.

Debugging Linux in the late 1990s meant:

  • Reading the Linux source code to understand what error messages meant.
  • Compiling C and C++ applications from source and debugging.
  • Reviewing code written by developers to verify that it is not malicious, dangerous or insecure.
  • Figuring out how to actually deploy software.
  • Writing code in Bash and Perl.

And of course a lot of automating the installation of Linux and other applications.

In other words, the system administrator was always a programmer.

What once separated the the developer from the system administrator was culture. Developers often had a "someone else's problem" attitude towards deployment, and system administrators often either didn't like programming, weren't good at it, or became product specialists (AIX, Solaris experts etc).

Basically, the difference between the sysadmin and the developer speaks to the dysfunctional historical relationship between developers and deployment. The bad old days of pre-Agile, pre-DevOps.

What does the developer/sysadmin split mean in the age of DevOps, SRE etc?

A brief history of DevOps (YouTube).

Stack Overflow and the beloved "trilogy" was created a year before the DevOps revolution happened. By 2008, keen-eyed observers had already noticed that the era of the sysadmin was drawing to a close. Today, sysadmin is a job title no one wants. I can say of my former colleagues over a 10 year career in Linux, not one is still doing system administration. Every single one now, at least ostensibly, is some kind of developer.

And in practical terms the distinction between the developer and sysadmin is also meaningless. There is no magic skill that the sysadmin has that the developer does not. The only difference is subject matter knowledge. A good sysadmin probably knows a lot more about Linux than most developers. In precisely the same way that a good Python developer probably knows a lot more about Python than a Ruby developer.

The future:

This "Trilogy" may be entrenched in the minds of many here (I must say: 34 anonymous downvotes to the OP without a single valid point landed in response is massively impressive), it is inevitable all the same that Serverfault will either die off and/or be merged into Stack Overflow anyway.

I could answer questions at Server Fault. But why would I do that? The rep earned doesn't count here; the answers won't be ranked on Google so no one will ever see those answers; and they'll be asked here and then answered again at Stack Overflow anyway.

One at a time, the people who answer questions there will stop doing that and come over here.

The world has changed. Let's focus on the future.

In the mean time, we could hasten the inevitable, and help the high rep C, C++ and Python developers who keep downvoting the questions in my topic area, with their spurious claims of "that's not real programming", as they try in vain to steer away the migrating hordes - let's help them get focused again on actually answering questions about C, C++ and Python. That would help everyone.

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