141
votes

The plan - two-month implementation timeline

The biggest concern raised here was that splitting would make it difficult to watch, as there's currently no support for watching/favoriting tag combinations. The DAG team has a plan to address this over the next couple of months (announcement on MetaSE); once they do, it will be possible to split these sorts of "tag combos" without undue disruption for current subscribers.

UNTIL THEN, I'm doing the following:

  1. Ensuring that all questions tagged are also tagged and except in cases where this would push the number of tags over 5
  2. Adding a warning to the and tags to encourage askers to add both and
  3. Adding a warning to the tag encouraging askers to specify an application tag as well.

After analyzing the current set of questions in these tags, I've come to believe that the critical blocker here are questions where multiple applications are involved: for example, Excel and Access. It simply won't be possible to correctly tag these until we can get rid of the combination tags entirely, so we'll have to bite the bullet on that as soon as possible.

The warnings are live now.

I'll be adding tags to just shy of 35 thousand questions today, and revisit the split once the system allows.



This particular debate has gone on a bit too long...

IMHO, there's no value to having a hyphenated tag here; two tags work just as well to represent the topic's scope while also allowing much more flexible filtering and combining with other tags. I'd like to just be rid of it, with a four-step process:

  1. add the tag to all existing where it is currently missing
  2. merge into
  3. synonymize with (alternately: blacklist this tag with a warning to use separate language and application tags)
  4. add a pop-up warning for folks selecting the tag asking them to also specify a specific application tag when relevant.

This process could also be applied to other application-vba tags as well.

This is gonna mess with some folks' tag preferences; that's unavoidable. OTOH, if I'd done it a year ago it'd have messed with about 8K fewer people's preferences, so putting it off longer isn't fixing that situation.

Can anyone think of any good reasons not to do this and be done with the endless confusion and debates?

No debates about whether Excel is a programming tool, please; in the real world, people write applications in Excel - deal with it.

10
  • 10
    @Shog9 Finally! Good job on that one. ♥ After all those pointless debates and arguments I personally think it doesn't matter which option we go for in the end (one tag, both, synonym etc). As long as it's consistent throughout the entire site, it's fine in my book. Nothing worse than ambiguities.
    – Skipper
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 19:10
  • There seems to be quite a history of rancor with this, so fixing it is definitely a step in the right direction in my opinion.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:06
  • 1
    Having 2 tags instead of 1 will always mess with tag preferences, since you can't favourite combinations of tags. Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:32
  • 10
    That... Was the problem we were trying to solve with New Navigation, @Dukeling - hopefully we still will.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:44
  • Just to make this a tad bit more interesting. How about we also add the commonly misconcepted [macros] tag into the mix as well. As per: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/256623/what-to-do-about-macros
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 7:41
  • 7
    @Luuklag - macros as had a long standing warning not be associated with MS Office 'macro recording' or vba sub procedures but TMK it never got the the one-repper 'warning' not to use it. It is also commonly confused with macos to the average dyslexicly challenged..
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 11:00
  • Anyone in favor of excel-vba and other similar tags (word-vba, powerpoint-vba) should be in favor of introducing the following tags: nodejs-javascript, browser-javascript, wscript-javascript, jquery-javascript -- different applications hosting the same language with different libraries.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:58
  • 8
    To reverse the discussion: Do we want a unity3d-c#, wpf-c#, net-core-c# tag? I don't think so. I do not have any domain knowledge of vba, but it sounds like vba is the language, while excel is the library/hosting application. I don't see any difference to unity3d. Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 3:08
  • @ChristianGollhardt Except it's closer to creating a new project with the VS WPF C# template, which has some references added by default, and those references could not be removed. Also, the runtime environment exposes some of the types in these references as global objects, not requiring an explicit using.. This engenders the perception that a particular environment configuration is a new language, or at least different dialect of VBA. (Not what I think.)
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 5:41
  • 2
    The excel-vba tag is gone. See Status of removing the Excel-vba (and similar -vba) tags for what happened.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 8, 2020 at 13:37

18 Answers 18

159
votes

An question in meta? It's always nice to be reminded that we're still a part of the Stack Overflow community!

As for burninating the tag, please no! As anyone who knows will tell you, there are immense differences in syntax between , , , and - before answering any questions, you have to know what parent program they're writing from!

If anything, the tag doesn't mean much, for just as I've mentioned - without knowing what the parent program is, you can't write a successful subroutine. A majority of is working between Microsoft programs (like creating PowerPoint presentations or Word documents from Excel).

(I would support only creating the pop-up warning to specify what program they're writing out of for the tag.)

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  • 32
    So am I reading this right, essentially: "please don't do this! Unless you can do what you said you'd do in the question"? :-P
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:56
  • 11
    @TylerH Precisely! :) It was meant to be a passive vote for option #4!
    – dwirony
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:57
  • 18
    @Makoto Excel-VBA is a proper term - it is VBA, however, someone who knows "general VBA" may have no idea how to write in Excel-VBA. I wrote in Word-VBA for a year before transitioning to Excel-VBA, and while I was fluent in Word-VBA, I had quite a bit of a learning curve.
    – dwirony
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:06
  • 28
    Well, VBA is the same between programs, they just use different object models from each other.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:14
  • 14
    Just to be clear: the numbered list is the steps I'll take if I go through with this, in order, not a set of independent options. I kinda don't think the status quo is tenable - we're closing in on 20K questions that are probably about excel-vba but aren't tagged excel-vba, with at least as many questions tagged [excel-vba] that aren't even tagged [excel]!
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:20
  • 22
    @Makoto You can think of excel VBA as VBA with an Excel library of functions already loaded, and access-VBA as VBA with an Access library of functions already loaded. You can write VBA without any of the MS application's loaded, and run it as a stand alone thing, but that makes up a tiny percent of VBA development; most is using at least one of them.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:29
  • 4
    @Servy: Got it. That makes it crystal clear for me now. In that case, Shog's approach makes the most sense since it would also add the warning for users to specify the library they care about when writing VBA.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:34
  • 14
    @Braiam No, it's like talking about the difference between using C++ to write a web app versus using C++ to write a desktop application. You're using exactly the same language, you're just using it with radically different libraries that radically change the types of things you're using it to do. C and C++ are not "the same language but with different libraries". There are fundamentally different language features and behaviors. Excel and Access VBA are the same language, with the same compiler, but with different linked libraries. It's also just a pretty bare bones language.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:44
  • 13
    Note that there is a common VBA, and a lot of simple questions can be answered without any application-specific code. Questions like how do I convert a ParamArray to a normal variant array to how do I call this WinAPI function that requires a GUID struct as a parameter from VBA can be answered in common VBA, and should be applicable to all different applications. While tagging the application on questions relevant to it is a good idea, we shouldn't be over-eager to discourage tagging questions just VBA.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 10:27
  • 5
    I was having this discussion with another user. My initial stance was that I thought having Excel-VBA was useful in that it would allow greater specificity. I could search for questions that involved VBA in Excel specifically. The notion being, I could avoid Excel in general, and VBA applied to other non-Excel environments. And yes, so I would be prepared for the syntax and object model required. This is all based on the tag being correctly applied. So I am definitely in the camp of a pop-up/guidance for useful tagging over scattergun tagging.
    – QHarr
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 11:53
  • 6
    Not sure why this gets so many upvotes as it seems @dwirony has misunderstood the OP... :)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:50
  • 25
    There are no differences in syntax between VBA hosted in Excel and VBA hosted in other applications. The entire difference is 1) which libraries are referenced by default, and 2) which objects are globally available. Keywords, syntax of method calls, syntax of property usage, operators are all the same across the board for all VBA environments.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:01
  • 10
    @ZevSpitz that's not quite correct. Option Compare Database and the special syntax for drawing lines in Powerpoint come to mind. But that's basically some rather obscure edge-cases that are relevant for maybe 0.001% of vba questions
    – Vogel612
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:22
  • 22
    There are no syntax differences at all. Syntax is cast in stone by the programming language, VBA. The only difference is the object model, each Office product has its own. With lots of overlap, there is always an Application object, there is always a reference to MSO and VBE. Documentation is very similarly laid-out. Not being able to discover this is a regretful side-effect of only ever looking at [excel-vba]. Big fat waste, not just of SO help, you are also putting pointless restrictions on personal career opportunities. Discovering this is one of the SO contributor goodies. Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 11:41
  • 5
    @RyanLundy vba and excel are no different than any other language / API tag pair. Someone whose developer history only includes C# and WPF, and who follows the c# tag, will be presented with many irrelevant (to him) questions about ASP.NET MVC, .NET Core etc. Yet no one would argue that each possible tag pair should be a new tag, especially since the tag pair can be searched for; and the SO plan is to eventually allow multiple-tag bookmarks on the sidebar.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 3, 2018 at 3:06
101
votes

I asked about this on Meta Stack Exchange back in 2010. As a result of one of the answers, , and temporarily became tag synonyms of .

About a year later, these tag synonyms were removed and Joel Spolsky explained why. He said:

There is a difference between Excel questions (which concern worksheets, mostly), VBA questions (which concern a programming language used by several Office apps), and Excel-VBA questions (which concern that programming language used in the context of Excel, the Excel object model, etc).

They are three different things, and not every question is about all of them.

Making excel-vba a synonym for VBA was an abuse of the synonym system, so that synonym has been deleted. The result was that people tagged things excel-vba which was silently changed to vba, and we lost information in the process.

Using "excel" and "vba" tags on Excel VBA questions is not appropriate if the question isn't really about using Excel or programming Excel worksheets.

is one of the tags I'm most active in. Not all of the people asking questions there know whether or not VBA is required to solve their issue. This can result in tags being applied fairly haphazardly.

For me, is an acceptable replacement for . The long history of disputes about these tags suggests, however, that it would be wise to get more input from the active users in these tags before making changes

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  • 14
    This is good background info, thanks! There are ways around the silent retagging issue if we go that route; regardless, what we have now is the same unholy mixture of tags we had 8 years ago, but 100x larger, so worth keeping this up for discussion long enough to solve it.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 3:38
  • 23
    I'm sorry but I cannot agree. powerpoint-vba is one of the only places you will regularly see Select or Selection as a legitimate answer while the practice is actively discouraged in excel-vba and other mediums. [word-vba] depends heavily on cursors and position markers that are completely irrelevant anywhere else. [access-vba] again has similarly named functions as other vba platforms but are implemented and react in very different ways. The list goes on and on.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 4:06
  • 1
    First thing I do when I see someone using a select statement is link to: stackoverflow.com/questions/10714251/…
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 11:46
  • 1
    @Luuklag Technically a Select method call.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:07
  • 7
    Spolsky can't have an impartial view on the matter, he was the one that designed the first Excel object model. It is his baby. He blogged about it, fun read: joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 11:47
  • 5
    @HansPassant The quote from Spolsky is relevant to synonymizing excel-vba to vba in isolation. Shog9 is proposing adding the excel tag before creating the synonym; there would be no loss of information in that case.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 12:24
  • 1
    @Jeeped Isn't that a function of the underlying object models? The same advice (e.g. use Select/Selection from PowerPoint, not in other apps) applies to the PowerPoint object model vs Excel/Word object models, whatever language they are used from. But the intention here is not to tag with only vba, but with the pair of tags excel and vba.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 9:05
  • @ZevSpitz - Sorry, but you're not even close to the direction the xxxx-vba regulars take to advance the learning curve of neophytes to the whole programming game.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 9:16
  • 1
    @Jeeped Did you mean to comment here? I'm sorry, but I don't see what your last comment has to do either with the answer, or my previous comments.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 14:39
  • 2
    @ZevSpitz I believe his comment was intended - and to further elaborate, you're generalizing the Microsoft applications while to Jeeped's point, the regular xxxx-vba contributors tend to differentiate them all drastically. Even though Select works in Excel, it is taboo to recommend its usage - to the point where users are immediately redirected to a page to read about How to avoid using Select in Excel VBA.
    – dwirony
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 16:03
  • 2
    @ZevSpitz, you are mistaken. Currently people who see excel-vba are people who are interested in Excel VBA. If it's split into excel and vba, people will see those questions who are interested in any area of Excel, or any area (or app) of VBA. That will broaden the audience...but it'll only increase the number of people who will see questions that aren't relevant to their interests. How can this be an improvement? Until SO has a way to save intersections of tags as favorites, this will most definitely cause a loss of information.
    – Ryan Lundy
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 16:11
  • 1
    @dwirony Even though 'Select' works in Excel, it is taboo to recommend its usage. Absolutely, but this is because of the Excel object model being used, and irrelevant to VBA. A Python programmer working against the Excel object model will be told to avoid Select, while a Python programmer working against the PowerPoint object model will be told to use Select. you're generalizing the Microsoft applications Absolutely not -- programming against excel is very different from programming against powerpoint, whether in VBA, C#, or any language; and irrespective of host.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 18:24
  • 1
    @RyanLundy loss of information isn't quite accurate -- the question is still tagged with both tags. Especially since this information can already be used to search for questions that are tagged both excel and vba. You are correct that since currently in the UI you can't bookmark pairs of tags, having this tag is a convenience, but that needs to be balanced against the confusion caused by multiple tagging strategies.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 3, 2018 at 2:17
61
votes

The language is . Whether you write it hosted in , , , or , , , or any other one of the 200+ possible VBA host applications out there (it absolutely isn't just an "Office" thing), it's still VBA.

IMO the language to tag with should be .

Then there's the main object model library you're using. Note that an Excel/VBA application can very well (and a lot do!) reference the Access, Word, or PowerPoint object model libraries too.

I'm with the crowd that wants to see split into . "Excel-VBA" just contributes to conflate "language", "host application", and "type library", and that confusion cannot possibly be a good thing.

Someone with a question should tag their question with the relevant object models their code is referencing (be it , , , or all of these - as relevant to the question), and the body of their question should make it clear what the host application is - otherwise readers can safely assume that a question involves code that's hosted in Excel.

See I can write a piece of VBA code in Word, reference the Excel object model and have a problem with the Excel part of my "Word-VBA" code - it's critically important that the question mentions the code is hosted in Word, and uses the Excel object model. Ideally the code itself should make that clear, but VBA makes it easy for such things to be implicit in the code, and impossible to tell just by looking at a snippet in a SO question (e.g. unqualified Range calls could go either way).

If the question doesn't involve code that specifically uses types and methods defined in the Excel type library, then a tag like is actually harmful, since it potentially hides a question that could be answered by folks that know VBA, but aren't familiar with the Excel object model. Same with , and all the others.

I therefore fully support the proposed solution:

  1. add the tag to all existing where it is currently missing
  2. merge into
  3. synonymize with
  4. add a pop-up warning for folks selecting the tag asking them to also specify a specific application tag when relevant.

...as long as it applies to all tags.

13
  • 3
    Meanwhile, any COM connected language (not just VBA) can run specific object models. I have run Access/Excel methods in Python, R, even PHP!
    – Parfait
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 19:12
  • But then you'll have the problem that people who post will NOT add two tags, meaning we'll have to do a lot more tag editing AND asking people what application they're using. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 19:16
  • 10
    @Parfait and many Python questions dealing with the Excel libraries frequently tag with python and excel, just like many c# questions do. I'm failing to see how vba should be any different. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 19:28
  • 3
    @MathieuGuindon ... agreed. We should make a note that VBA is a just layer like other languages. In fact, it is the first default checked item under Tools\References! It has nothing to do with actual Office app.
    – Parfait
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 19:35
  • @Parfait correct. It just so happens that the host app's object model can't be removed from project references (ditto with the VBA standard library) - that said Cindy has a point: it does put a bit of a burden on us veterans to ensure tagging is done properly... but then, what else is new? ;-) Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 19:38
  • 5
    Also, the VBA standard library isn't VBA the language, it's just the standard library - conflating language with library is pretty much like saying C# is the System namespace. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 19:41
  • This is a common but very narrow view of a programming language. Yes, c is a small language of only 32 keywords, which does not include an IO capability, so the iconic hello-world program is "not really c". Or, alternatively, Excel VBA is a programming language which includes language elements for manipulating spreadsheets. FWIW, the latter was the point of view of the designers of Excel VBA: by design it was an extensible language. And the former was the view of the designer of c: by design, the language did not include the system library.
    – david
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 7:53
  • What about naming the tags so they expressly reference the host application? vba-in-excel + word-automation for VBA code running in Excel to automate Word, using the Word object model?
    – cxw
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 16:51
  • @cxw [vba]+typelibs is all that matters. The host application merely determines what type library is referenced by default (and can't be removed), on top of the VBA standard library - that's entirely covered by [vba][excel][word], assuming the OP isn't just a code dump without any context or description... which would be an unclear question regardless of the tags. Also, [vba] being the language, it needs its own language tag - also "hosted in Excel" is completely irrelevant for 99% of the [userform] and [web-scraping] VBA questions. VBA is a full-fledged language, full stop. Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 18:42
  • 1
    @david Excel VBA is a programming language which includes language elements for manipulating spreadsheets. Except that those same elements can be used equally well from Access-hosted VBA or any <app>-hosted VBA. Why then should these elements be defined as part of the language, instead of elements of a referenced library?
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 30, 2018 at 22:23
  • 2
    Splitting excel-vba into excel and vba means that anyone interested in excel will see the question, and anyone interested in vba (with any Office program) will see it. A rather small intersection of these people will actually be interested in VBA for Excel, rather than VBA for another program or Excel for another reason. The tags don't find things by intersection; they're an OR, not an AND. Splitting the tags will lose focus and annoy people.
    – Ryan Lundy
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 15:53
  • 5
    @RyanLundy split tags works very well for every other language tag on the site though. Splitting the tags will contribute to educate the many folks that seem to think "Excel-VBA" is a language. Your last contribution in the VBA tag was almost a decade ago (btw kudos for a 4-digit user id!!)... I monitor the VBA tag on the daily, and I'd need to follow a bunch of confusing "host" tags to see everything VBA just because people don't understand that the language is VBA and that's the only language tag they need to use. 95% of VBA code is written in Excel anyway, there's no focus problem. Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 16:25
  • @MathieuGuindon yet it's very disruptive to the answerers.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 4, 2018 at 1:14
19
votes

The biggest concern I have with this change (which I think I otherwise agree with), is the Stack Overflow UI.

I am probably one of many people who, while not being a primary VBA programmer, have some expertise in using VBA in Excel (and only Excel). I don't know the language well enough to answer hard questions about VBA in general; but I do have some specific domain knowledge in using it with Excel. As such, I'm interested in seeing Excel VBA questions from time to time, and answer a few of them.

If the tag went away, that would be much harder for me, simply because of the UI of Stack Overflow. I'd have to do a custom search (i.e., I'd have to type out my search criteria), rather than clicking on the tag in my favorites section.

If the UI were improved such that you could have saved searches in the left nav, say, and not just purely tags, this wouldn't be an issue, and I'd simply create an search and be done. But since it's not, this change will mean I don't look at Excel VBA questions anymore. I'm not interested in VBA in any other context, and I don't care enough to make a bookmark in my already full browser bar or to type it in the search box.

I suspect that a lot of other users will also end up having this problem - not just users like me, but newer users; they won't know about searching for multiple tags, so they'll either pick one of the tags and browse it (and you'll end up with the tag being the de facto tag, most likely) or they'll not browse at all, losing some of the audience.

So - improve the UI, get custom tag combinations into the left nav, if you want this to work well.

3
  • "If the UI were improved" 6 to 8 weeks.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 15:32
  • 5
    Yes, this is exactly the problem with the proposal. People who were interested in excel-vba won't have a good way to say so anymore. If they put excel they'll get all Excel questions, and if they put vba they'll get all VBA questions. And soon they'll get annoyed and quit answering questions because so many will be irrelevant.
    – Ryan Lundy
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 15:56
  • To address this concern, I've been active on various excel and powerpoint vba tags for about 2 years now. My (albeit workaround) solution is a bookmarked search with each of these tags selected. It's not as neat as actually following tags, but it gets the job done
    – RGA
    Commented Oct 16, 2018 at 15:06
18
votes

Apart from the issues already mentioned regarding differing syntax between Office applications, the other thing to consider is that VBA is actually used outside Microsoft Office too in various CAD/CAM applications for example.

Whilst the core language is the same across all applications there are a vast array of object libraries that affect how VBA has to be used within an application and so the various *-vba tags do in fact serve a purpose and are not just synonyms.

That being said, in the interest of being fair — I personally see no issue in having and tags instead of a single tag on a question. Additionally, having the tags in this manner would probably increase responses on questions because for the most part VBA developers have a good understanding of Excel in general, and a lot of VBA questions can actually be solved without VBA (Whuuuut??? I know, right!?).

That's only going to work if the whole culture around these tags shifts, and if I'm being brutally honest — I don't think anyone from SO will win that battle.

If anything, I think the effort would be far better spent helping people understand that VBA, VB and VBScript are not synonyms and make some of the question tags a bit cleaner.

8
  • 2
    Sorry, but I see an issue with not having an excel and a excel-vba tag together just as I see an issue with not being able to put an excel tag and a excel-formula tag together. There is a natural hierarchy here that defined the broad spectrum and then narrows it down to a certain degree. It doesn't have to be narrowed down to the nth degree but worksheets and the VBE are different platforms and should be recognized as such. After all, isn't the point of these tags to attract a focused audience or is it really just white-hat search engine optimization?
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 11:14
  • 3
    btw, kudos on bringing he whole vba, vb.net and vbscript confusion into the conversation.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 11:16
  • @Jeeped Yeah I agree and prefer to have both tags, just in the interest of a balanced argument I’m saying I wouldn’t see it as the end of the world if it had to separate tags. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 11:34
  • 2
    Wait, you think educating people on the differences between vba, vb.net, and vbscript is easier than splitting a tag into two already-existing tags? With this change, people simply won't be able to tag stuff as excel-vba. They will only have vba and excel. From where I sit the only real harm is going to come from tag following (people will have to adjust their followed tags until new-nav functionality comes back, if ever), and people will have one less tag to use, but 3 tags should still be plenty.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:13
  • 4
    To my knowledge, you are the first person who has expressed that excel-vba refers to the Excel object model; the obvious perception of this tag is the intersection of Excel and VBA. Now, if it was called something like excel-object-model...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:44
  • @TylerH I don't think it's easier, particularly as a lot of people who make that mistake are newcomers to vb* language(s) - I'm just saying that if we're going to spend time and effort in an attempt to "tidy up" this group of tags that we might get more bang for our buck there. As I mentioned, it isn't going to ruin my day if the excel-vba tag was split out, but I don't think SO will ever win the community round to agreeing with it anyway, so place the effort elsewhere if that makes sense? Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:52
  • 1
    There actually is an excel-automation tag, which if I understand correctly, is supposed to represent the Excel object model.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 3, 2018 at 3:15
  • It's a mistake to describe different syntax between Office applications as if there are multiple languages between the various applications. The language is the same (except for a few deprecated corner cases) across all applications; it's only the available object models that are different.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Oct 6, 2019 at 23:03
13
votes

One case that isn't covered in your question is . As there are severe limitations in the functionalities of vba on mac, for obvious reasons ofcourse. And therefore requires a different mindset when programming for environments, because you lack a lot of basic functionalities present when programming for

According to your suggestion one would then tag a question with + + , leaving room for only two aditional tags, compared to the room for 4 tags when using the hyphenated tag.

Now I don't immediately see a problem here, as I believe there is rarely a need for more then two tags that described the question content besides its environment. But I do think this is something we need to keep in mind.

This is also the case for

8
  • 3
    I completely agree. I regularly edit excel-vba tags to excel-vba-mac in order to attract a more focused audience. There are simply too many disparities to throw them together.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 8:05
  • FYI macros has nothing to do with VBA, in a rather explicit way. See tag info. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:43
  • @MathieuGuindon are you refering to my answer or to my comment on the OP?
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:44
  • 5
    Oh damn, nevermind, I totally read "macos" as "macros". Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:47
  • 2
    The thing is, VBA doesn't need a Mac-OS mirror tag for every host application. Most major differences between VBA on a Mac and VBA on Windows pertain to VBA itself, not the host application or its object model. Very good point bringing up Mac-OS, but IMO there's no need for a Excel-VBA-Mac tag when VBA-Mac would do just fine. i.e. tag your "Excel VBA MacOS" questions with vba-macexcel. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:50
  • 2
    @MathieuGuindon, That indeed is true, would be wise to add a generic [tag:vba-mac] tag, question is however, how are (new) people going to find that tag, as it isn't completely natural when adding tags. Adding all the singular tags is more natural behaviour, so we need some warning if someone adds both [tag:vba] and [tag:macos]
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:56
  • @Zoe, I don't see why not. As it obviosly states: "macOS-specific behaviour" which is the case why vba on mac works different then on windows.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:41
  • 3
    @Zoe except, running VBA on a Mac changes how file I/O needs to be written, reduces the number of available type libraries (e.g. can't use Scripting Runtime i.e. Dictionary and RegEx classes, to name a few).... knowing that VBA code needs to run on a Mac is a fundamental piece of information that absolutely affects the possible answers. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 18:47
12
votes

I'm at odds that with all the bluster about not being rude and welcoming newcomers while an effort moving toward the homogenizing all the flavors of is receiving so much support.

A good percentage of the folks asking their very first question in /// are doing so with recorded code that they are trying to improve themselves through self-learning.

Why make it harder for them to find a solution? A pair of and tags will get them where the most help is available just as and will do in another situation. If they can figure out that part, I'd say they were 50% done and for the most part, the altruistic 'regulars' bend over backwards to offer assistance.

The problem with a homogenized tag is in its own definition. I don't have fancy statistics for you but I've been working on a nice virtual reality graphic I think you'll enjoy.

enter image description here

31
  • 10
    Besides the fact that Access doesn't offer a macro recorder, this answer is excellent, and the graph should make the decision clear for everyone.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 13:40
  • 2
    I went a little broad in my definition of 'recorded code'. I should have expanded it to include 'copied and pasted from the Internet'. However, thanks for grasping my implied meaning in that these new-comers are actually trying (enthusiastically) to write something they can call their own (with a little help).
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 13:46
  • 9
    So why do you think a new user is going to be able to figure out to tag their question with excel-vba and excel, but not vba and excel? Why is the former easier for a new user to understand than the latter? It's worth noting at this point that, if the proposed synonym were to be added, they could actually tag their question using the first two tags, and it would simply end up looking like the latter two tags when done.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:49
  • The only thing I can offer is that as they type excel, excel-vba may present itself in the suggestions. Same with vba. Failing both of those, there is the off chance they actually did some on-site research and hit [ask a question] when within one or both of the tags so it may be familiar. Someone coming around for the second time has almost assuredly had their original question's tags modded. I do believe I qualified my statement with 'If they can figure out that part...'.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 14:57
  • 4
    Agreed Jeeped, Has someone who picked up any type of programming (starting with VBA for work reasons) in the past years and with MUCH help from SO, although simple one of the things that helped me make a transition from looking online for excel macros to understanding the connection between the programming language and the "macro" was the fact that the excel-vba exists. IMHO most of the question that I've seen(from first time users) in excel-vba are from business background people with no clue what is VBA that would post question with only the excel tag and macro on the title.
    – Miguel_Ryu
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:04
  • 2
    Even though I support the idea, -1 for taking me for an idiot whose vote you can buy with a silly picture. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 18:53
  • 1
    Just trying to understand -- if there never had been an excel-vba, would you argue for its introduction, because absolute beginners should have a one-stop tag? And presumably the only reasons why excel-vba deserves such a one-stop tag vs other library/language combinations, is because the entry bar for Excel VBA is lower than say WPF and C# (owing to 1) the macro recorder, and 2) VBA is easily available from the main Excel application)?
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 28, 2018 at 0:24
  • 1
    @Miguel_Ryu While the single tag is easier on new users, there is a cost for non-beginner users (probably a far larger segment of the community) in that there are now two tagging strategies for such questions. Posters have to decide which strategy, followers have more tags to follow, reviewers have to choose, sometimes leading to retagging wars; and Meta is full of questions by people who have to make these decisions.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 28, 2018 at 10:38
  • 2
    @ZevSpitz so, people that doesn't get affected by the brunt of the consequences are deciding whenever they do an action that would affect the folks answering the questions... is this politics?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 12:35
  • 2
    @Braiam - sorry to say but you got it right. This is a dog & pony show in the worst sense; nothing more than a perfunctory exhibition of democracy while having nothing to do with the best interest for those actually involved. Shog9 just wants to piss on something so he/she can put their name on it. Starting up this rat's nest was just the start. It provides notoriety. The site will move through those four steps quickly and without hesitation; I'm sure of it. They couldn't fix a a single spelling mistake on a single web page within '6-8 weeks' but I'm sure this is a done deal.
    – user4039065
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 16:52
  • 1
    @ZevSpitz ... but many of the "run of the mill" [<app>-vba] question come from a business application of programming into a specific set of problems, unlike [excel] and [vba] tag where thing like 3rd party <app> manipulation, db integration and higher paradigm programming issues are tackled, essentially, you (meta) might not notice this but a big service the tag does is to expedite both business background question and programming question enabling users to monitor three sides of the spectrum without missing intricate questions in a sea of low quality question.
    – Miguel_Ryu
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 22:48
  • 1
    @Braiam I don't think the consequences are that severe; I would suggest that only users who are unfamiliar with the term "VBA" will be affected. Such users would start off by tagging with excel, and possibly macros (because "Macro Recorder"). What do questions asked by these users gain by the additional excel-vba? And if the intent is to allow even these users to differentiate between an Excel problem that can be solved with a program vs an Excel problem that can be solved with a worksheet function, users can be directed to the tag pair instead of excel-vba.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 30, 2018 at 22:55
  • 2
    @ZevSpitz - You're really starting to grasp at straws now to support your position in this fool's errand. Statistics clearly show that having the xxxxx-vba tags are beneficial to both the questioner and the answerer. You seem to be now claiming that such benefits are irrelevant compared to the fact that 3-5 tags can be removed from service. What a crock!
    – user4039065
    Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 19:56
  • 1
    @ZevSpitz no, that's not how central tendency statistics work. If both excel and vba tags are worse than the excel-vba, then the combination will also be worse. The average between two numbers is always between those two numbers, even if the numbers themselves are average. Also, it was a deliberate choice in the analisys taking into account how the underlying system works.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 19:57
  • 2
    I thank you for your candor and your dedication to SO users, advanced and beginner. You're really starting to grasp at straws now to support your position in this fool's errand. My position hasn't changed -- 1) Excel and VBA are orhogonal concerns, so from a purely technical standpoint the tags should have been split; 2) A single tag may be slightly more discoverable to new users, and/or 3) easier to follow for answerers, but 4) it comes at the cost of multiple tagging strategies. 5) We can easily direct users to the pair of tags instead of the single combo tag, and 6) those users who ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 8:16
12
votes

I am totally in favour of the proposed solution because it fixes the basic problem, in my opinion: currently, there are two ways one can flag a question about VBA in Excel, or any other host. As a consequence, both will be used and you always have to search for both possibilities to find all questions. There can be as much user education as you want to promote that all VBA questions in Excel should go to the combined tag; it will not work. Quite a lot of the questions in the VBA tags come from users that do not even bother to read the How to ask page. Why would they bother to follow any preferred convention for tagging?

This leaves two possibilities: killing all combined tags and following the convention from other languages as Java to require tagging with the language and the framework/object model (provided the framework is important) or removing the standalone tag for the language.

As already argued in other answers, removing the standalone tag is a problem for several reasons. To name a few:

  1. VBA is a full blown programming language of its own with its standard library (mostly concerned with string manipulation functions, but not only) that is identical among all hosts. Thus, there are questions that only concern the language and not any specific object model, like Check if a string contains another string. There are actually frequently questions in combined tags that actually concern the syntax or problems solved within the standard library, e.g. vba - rediming 2d array and trying to find the length of the 2nd of the array from about 7 hours ago.
  2. There are hundreds of hosts for which there is no combined tag and generating them would create a lot of basically unused tags.
  3. The previous point cannot be circumvented by leaving the standalone tag only for those and relying on user education to promote the convention because most people do not read.
  4. You cannot safely tag only with the host application: at least in the case of Excel, you can program in the host application alone without ever touching VBA.
2
  • 5
    I think this hits on the biggest issue. If the goal is to have only 1 way to tag, the hyphenated tag has to be the one to go. Neither of the individual tags can be removed, because they are both on-topic by themselves. If you keep the hyphenated tag, there will always be multiple ways to tag the question.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Jun 28, 2018 at 23:33
  • RE 4: This raises another point -- just as you can program in the host without VBA, you can program in VBA without touching the host. If I have a question about manipulating the Word object model from within Excel, why should that be tagged excel?
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Oct 6, 2019 at 23:07
7
votes

Two similar questions have been asked before, in relation to Android: kotlin-android (burnination request) and android-java (tag request). They're not related to VBA, but they're related to this problem.

We don't create tags for combinations of languages and frameworks. If a question uses the Java language, then java is a legitimate tag for that question. And however much you may see the Android additions as alien, the actual source code is still using the Java language. - Source

Now, I'm not a VBA developer. However, I did talk to someone who does know VBA before posting this, and from what I've been told, VBA (the language, looking aside bindings to Excel, Word, and others) is the same. Considering the two previous posts on related topics, and especially the [android-java] request, there's no point in separating the tags. VBA is a single language, and the bindings to Excel, Word, and others end up being specific APIs, not separate programming languages.

And I'd like to establish the fact that VBA is a single language. See the docs:

You can perform these tasks and accomplish a great deal more by using VBA for Office−a simple, but powerful programming language that you can use to extend Office applications.

(emphasis mine)

Also (from someone who's familiar with VBA):

It is the same language. All current hosts should use VBA7. The difference is the object model. - Source

VBA is, regardless of what program it's used in, a single language. Also, Microsoft hasn't defined a a "Visual Basic for Excel" (or any other single program) language anywhere. Why should Stack Overflow?

And while we're burninating [*-vba], the other tags ( and ) should also be retagged with the appropriate tags.

6
  • Note that we do have "specific APIs" tags.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:51
  • It's the same as with natural language dialects: once dialects are sufficiently apart, they are considered different languages, and it's up for judgement where to draw the line. I sounded one such judgement from SO needs' standpoint in my answer. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 18:37
  • @ivan_pozdeev It's the same as with natural language dialects To continue your analogy, two speakers of the King's English, one quoting a statement in French and one in Russian, are both using the same language and dialect, even as they are each quoting a separate external "language".
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 4:52
  • @ivan_pozdeev it's up for judgement where to draw the line I think the line is quite clear. Anything which is available in every implementation of the langauge, in every possible runtime environment, in every possible runtime configuration, can be considered part of the language. For example, whereever I write Python I will have access to the standard library, so the standard library is an inevitable part of discussions on the Python language. Other examples include the Javascript Date and Regex types; and the VBA Collection type. But if there are "things" which exist ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 5:05
  • @ivan_pozdeev ... in only specific implementations / environments / runtime configurations, those cannot be considered part of the core language. For example, the .NET Framework can be accessed from IronPython, and Java classes can be accessed from Jython, but neither are available from CPython. It is possible to have a Javascript environment without jQuery (GASP!) even within the browser, so jQuery is not a part of Javascript, but simply a referenced Javascript library. By extension, the Excel object model types are not a part of VBA, because it is possible to have VBA code without these ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 5:12
  • @ivan_pozdeev ... types available (in a different host application); rather the Excel object model types are simply a referenced library in a particular VBA environment (albeit one that when the host application is Excel, is made available by default (like VS project templates) and cannot be removed). OTOH, the Excel object model types can be trivially added to any VBA environment, and can be also used entirely independently of VBA; this is at odds with your assertion that the Excel object model types somehow create a new dialect of VBA.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 5:14
6
votes

I'm a full-time VBA-For-Excel Developer, and I run my entire business around it.

Generally speaking, I understand and agree with the fact that the language and the application should be separate tabs - after all, VBA is VBA regardless of where it's written, or what program it's attached to, regardless if it's Excel, Word, or a straight VBS script. Java, like another poster mentioned, doesn't get application-language pair tags, it gets tagged on the language, and a second tag for the application.

With that being said, I think the Excel-VBA (And to a smaller extent, Word and Access-VBA) tags are a bit special in some respects. While it makes perfect sense for most programmers and technically-minded people what's going on with getting the right language and the right application, a large number (perhaps even the vast majority) of people dabbling in Excel-VBA are novices in programming, looks to write some of their first scripts. Not their first useful script, not their first real-world script, their first script.

I remember when I was starting out, having a strong background in math, a hatred for repetitive tasks, and an idea that this "VBA" thing would help me out. I used stack overflow extensively, and Excel-VBA is the only tag I followed. I'd click on that tag when I had some spare time, and read various questions and answers to improve my understanding. I wouldn't say it wouldn't have been doable without the tag, but it helped immensely. It helped me stumble upon posts such as How to avoid using Select and How to use Regular Expressions. Those two posts I link fairly often - they're just that good.

I'll often go looking for questions with the Excel-VBA tag to answer - they're fun. Straight VBA is often not something I'm able to deal with, and the Excel tag is usually code for "This should be on Superuser but I found Stack Overflow first", and don't seem to be particularly high-quality questions.

Additional good points I'd like to quickly echo, in no particular order:

If Excel-VBA-Mac is going away, there should at least be something like a [VBA-Mac] tag - VBA for macs is so different as to nearly be an entirely new language.

Syntax: There's quite a bit of difference, at the base, of Excel-VBA VS Word-VBA VS Access-VBA. While you can get all of the references loaded in to make one act like the rest, this is not very intuitive, and nearly every answer assumes that the references for the application in question are loaded in.

Is there another language out there where different aspects have wildly different base references loaded in, and people answering the questions just know what references are in by default, and which ones need to be mentioned as needing to add for the solution given?

In conclusion: I'm heavily biased, but I think Excel-VBA, Word-VBA, and Access-VBA should be spared as a special case.

2
  • The "How to avoid Select" link is useful for peoplw writing programs against the Excel object model in any COM language -- C# and any .NET language, Javascript (under WSH or ASP classic), Python + win32com, Delphi -- not just VBA. It's also useful from any host -- Access, Word, Powerpoint -- not just Excel. I think keeping excel-vba would be a loss for those people.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Nov 28, 2019 at 23:50
  • 1
    _Is there another language ... _ I think the confusion stems from a combination of 2 factors: 1) the only way to write, compile and run hosted VBA is through the VBA editor, and 2) the only way to get to the editor is through the host application. You're starting with the application/document and adding some macros to it. In virtually every other programming environment (from my admittedly limited experience) you have to make some kind of concious decision as to API and language outside of the actual runtime environment: WPF or ASP.NET? React or Angular JS? C++ or Rust?
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Nov 28, 2019 at 23:52
5
votes

Most tags are associated with a specific domain: if the question has x / deals with x / is in the domain of x, tag with .

What aspect of a question should trigger the use of ?

  1. The question is about Excel and VBA? So tag with and , and that's it.
  2. The question targets the Excel object model? The -vba part of the tag implies something VBA-specific; it seems odd to tag a question targeting the Excel object model in C# with and .
  3. The code in the question is run under the Excel host / embedded in an Excel workbook? This doesn't usually matter. As long as the task at hand (e.g. create a Word document) and the target object model (using the Documents collection and the Add method) is the same, the answers will be the same, irrespective of hosting application, or location of the code.
  4. The code involves unique syntax available only in VBA hosted under Excel such as cell references with brackets ([A1].Value = "Foo"), or brackets as evaluation commands (result = [VLOOKUP(A1,A1,1,0)])? These obscure edge case are very rarely used, and could adequately be covered by +.

I could get behind 2. if the tag was called something language-agnostic, such as [excel-object-model]; such a tag would be useful from other languages / environments as well. (In fact, there already is an tag which could serve as a synonym target for .

Otherwise, I support this proposal.


Something else to consider: beginners to VBA + Excel may not know that they are using VBA -- they may know nothing more than the terms Excel and macro. Today, these beginners are helped by having the tag pop up for them in the tag list. Nevertheless, I think it more appropriate to solve this with an additional prompt: when the user enters only1 the tag (or tags of other applications commonly associated with VBA), the prompt should ask to add the tag as well.

1. If the user has entered a different language tag -- e.g. or -- it doesn't make sense to ask the user if he wants to add as well. Also, if there are any other tags, the user is presumably familiar with the tag system and doesn't need this prompt.


Much has been made of the supposed uniqueness of VBA hosted under Excel, as if it was a new programming language with the name Excel-VBA. I can conceive of two reasons why programming with VBA hosted under Excel might be mistaken for a new language:

  1. the types in the Excel type library (e.g. Worksheet object, and Sheets collection) are available (by default, and cannot be removed)
  2. the global variables provided by the Excel host (e.g. Application global property, ActiveSheet global property

As a thought experiment, let's say VBA is opened via Word (which by the above logic should be called the Word-VBA language), a reference to the Excel object model is added, and a module with some public variables/functions (e.g. Public Application As New Excel.Application) is created. Now both the Excel types and the Excel global objects are available -- is this now a new language called Word-Excel-VBA? Or Excel-Word-VBA? And if the Access type library is added, should we say that we now have 27 different languages?

Isn't it more sensible to say that VBA is one domain2, Excel is another domain, Word is a third domain and Access is a fourth; and there can be overlap between these domains?

2. The word domain here instead of "language" is intentional, because the SO tagging system doesn't differentiate between "language" tags and "API" tags; tags are mapped to appropriate domains.


As to the conception that VBA is in itself too narrow a concern without relevant object models:

  • There are many similar language/environments pairings:

    • What would C# be without .NET Framework? And yet, C# and the .NET Framework are two orthogonal concerns -- C# can be used against .NET Core or .NET Standard, and .NET Framework can be used equally well from other languages.
    • Javascript can only be run within a host (the browser, Node.js, or WSH), yet no one would argue that there is no place for a tag.
  • The common VBA shared across environments is rather minimal -- language syntax, Collection type, 8 modules with some functions. However, there are many problems for which there is a unique answer for VBA, and is appropriate to all VBA environments:

    • regular expressions (VBScript Regular Expression library)
    • database-style connectivity to databases, spreadsheets and text files (ADODB, or DAO/ACE)
    • file system parsing operations and file I/O (Scripting.FileSystemObject)
    • HTML parsing (MSHTML), web scraping and browser automation
    • XML parsing (MSXML)
    • spell checking (Word object model spell checker)
    • image processing (WIA)
    • and more...

    These answers to the specified problems are equally applicable in Word-hosted VBA, Excel-hosted VBA or Access-hosted VBA.

The data from this SEDE query:

AppCount  PostCount
--------- ----------
0         313751
1         114953
2           4816
3             46

shows that almost 3 times as many questions tagged VBA have no association with an application. vs questions that have an association with a single application. In addition, a sizable number of posts are indeed associated with multiple applications. This would suggest that VBA must be treated as a domain independent from any single application.

10
  • 1
    There is a question of practicality versus purity. The people who ask questions are not always going to know the right-from-an-academic-perspective tags to use. The people who are likely to answer are (we hope!) more knowledgeable than the askers. So it's more practical to meet the askers where they are, or at least toward where they are. The tagging conventions should ideally serve both the askers and the answerers. And this will not be consistent across all topics. A "beginner Haskell" question isn't going to be asked by the same kind of beginner as a beginner Excel-VBA question.
    – John Y
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 17:33
  • 2
    @JohnY Except that the beginner in VBA+Excel may not even know that it's called VBA, and it's impractical to define a tagging strategy for these beginners. There would have to be some kind of prompt when the user selects the excel tag, to select other appropriate tags; and that prompt might as well ask about the vba tag, instead of being used to perpetuate the combination tag.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 17:47
  • 1
    Probably very uncommon, but a decade ago I did something at my job that could've been appropriately tagged with [c#] and [excel-vba]. As a proof of concept I wrote a script in the latter that offloaded a calculation to the former. Speedup went from ~1day to <1 minute; with most of the time being spent in the VBA scraping the spreadsheet to generate an array of data to pass to the C# code via COM. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 20:18
  • @DanNeely Although perhaps even your scenario could have been tagged excel+vba+c#.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 22:43
  • @ZevSpitz It predated my time here, but the key tag would've been [COM], and as much on Supeuser as here. The baseline C# implementation already existed, scraping a sheet into a 2d array is vba101 level stuff. COM's learning curve is a sheer cliff face with landmines and concertina wire at the base. Figuring out what security lockdowns needed relaxed to get it running on the secure production network after I got it working on my dev laptop was just as painful as figuring out the initial interop. Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 14:21
  • Excel VBA is drastically different from some other forms of VBA, ergo it should have its own tag. If an arbitrary number of tags were allowed on posts, it would make sense to delete, maybe. Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 12:43
  • Actually, the VBA in Excel depends on the actual version of Excel you're using. It's a little better with the newer versions, but the syntax and libraries are exceedingly difficult to deal with in older versions of office, which are still out there in the wild. Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 16:02
  • @DylanBrams So there should be an excel-2007-vba tag, excel-2010-vba tag, an excel-2013-vba tag, an excel-2016-vba tag?
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 16:09
  • Actually, in my opinion, yes, but that's an entirely different story. A vba tag, an vba-office tag, a vba-excel tag, and on down. An organized tag cloud with many to many parents and children where excel-2013-vba has logical parents. But then, that's just the way I'd design it. :) Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 16:15
  • @DylanBrams I've expanded my answer to include my previous comment.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 19:39
2
votes

If others use the site (and this tag) how I do, then there might be fewer answerers for Excel VBA questions if this happened. If I'm an outlier then I'll go back to lurking on the matlab tag and you can pass me by!

  • For reasons noted by others (application specificities) I'm less interested in the broader vba tag,
  • I'm not interested in non-VBA questions within the excel tag.

So...

  • Having the excel-vba tag favourited means it's one click to view the questions within the intersection of Excel and VBA.
  • If this change happened, I guess I'd have to search [excel][vba], which frankly I'm too lazy to do when taking a quick click away from the day job...

There's often many low quality questions to wade through in the Excel pool anyway, so making it harder to find on topic questions within them is just discouraging as an answerer.

14
  • 2
    IMO if you can answer a VBA question, then it doesn't matter what the host application is. If you're writing "PowerPoint-VBA" and tag it as such when you have a question about how VBA the language works, i.e. you're having a problem with some part of the loop syntax or arrays or whatever, then your question will be getting fewer eyeballs just because it's not tagged with "Excel-VBA", yet 100% of the "Excel-VBA" crowd would be qualified to answer that "PowerPoint-VBA" question. The host/libs only matter if the question is about that. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:01
  • 5
    @Mat There is a difference between whether I'm qualified to answer a question, and whether I'm looking to answer a question. I've never used VBA within PowerPoint for instance, so don't know how the object hierarchy works for slides and stuff on them and I'm not familiar with the use cases. I do know Excel's object model well and can easily advise on tasks about summarising data or doing computations. My point was that if they're all in one bin, I wouldn't look to answer the additional stuff which was previously hidden by using the excel-vba "filter". The vba tag is for generalists.
    – Wolfie
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:08
  • 2
    But what the OP is suggesting, is that PowerPoint questions would be tagged with vba+powerpoint, so all you can do to avoid PowerPoint questions, is avoid the powerpoint tag when you see it... though, I can assure you that being unfamiliar with an OM isn't a showstopper at all. For example Slides is clearly an object collection class, just like the Worksheets collection is - and the answer to "why am I getting 'error 9 index out of bounds'?" is exactly the same in both cases. IMO if you do VBA you should at least see the VBA questions and then see if you'll answer them. Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:12
  • @Mat thanks I was just giving an example really, my main emphasis was more on not being interested in PowerPoint centric questions by nature, not that I couldn't probably answer Qs if I wanted to. I don't think I can really summarise my thoughts any better than the last sentence in my answer... I was trying to articulate why keeping things separate is useful to me as a user. As I acknowledged in my second sentence, I may well be an outlier in how I use the site, I suspected not.
    – Wolfie
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:22
  • 3
    I hear ya ;-) I think you could still have vba in your "favorite tags" while having powerpoint in your "ignored tags". Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 15:26
  • 2
    Even more than what @MathieuGuindon says, a question about manipulating an Excel workbook from VBA hosted within a Powerpoint presentation would currently be tagged powerpoint-vba, and probably not excel-vba; you would miss that question, even if it only involved the Excel object model, and you would be qualified and interested in answering the question.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 17:38
  • 1
    @zev I feel like we shouldn't turn this comment thread into a discussion about what I am or am not interested in or qualified in... it's not really my point anyway, as already stated
    – Wolfie
    Commented Jun 26, 2018 at 18:52
  • 3
    Same argument stays for c#. I don't care about unity3d. Should we have unity-c#? I don't think so. Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 3:04
  • 3
    Is it really more effort to search [excel][vba] vs [excel-vba]? If you do this so frequently that it makes a difference, just set up a favourite somewhere pointing to stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/excel+vba
    – JohnLBevan
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 14:31
  • 1
    @John That's a firm yes, because I don't search [excel-vba], I click the favourited tag from the homepage. The question "is it more effort" is maybe not what you meant, maybe you're asking "could you be any more lazy complaining about 12 keystrokes?!" which is more subjective, and as I have said multiple times it's purely down to how I interact with the site, if you're different that's fine.
    – Wolfie
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 14:47
  • @Wolfie that's covered by using a favourite link (i.e. then you don't even need to be on the site; you could just have a html file on your desktop with a bunch of links in it / whatever works best for you). You could also set up a filter (stackexchange.com/filters) and use that if you want the experience within SO. That said; yes, typing 12 keystrokes is more my point; you typed many more to submit this answer.
    – JohnLBevan
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 14:57
  • 1
    @JohnLBevan then it involves more effort duplicating a functionality that the site already have.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 11:55
  • 4
    To my mind the issue of being able to search on combinations of tags is different to the issue on replacing a single tag. Perhaps for the [excel-vba] question we should accept that it's split, but also upvote the option to have favourite tag combos to avoid this split from creating a problem for those with this concern / to provide the same benefits to others wanting to search for specific combinations?
    – JohnLBevan
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 12:37
  • SE gave us lemons @John, we have to make do with those we already have because they usually take too much time to give apples. The new-new-nav was supposed to fix these kinds of issues.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 15:39
2
votes

I think it's a very bad idea to burninate the "xxx-vba" combo tags. It's important to keep the issues of "features" separate from issues of "development". The hypenated xxx-vba tags represent the exclusive application development subsystems present in vba-enabled software suites. These are programming issues, not features. Yes, the the two are related, but in a hierarchical relationship; the programming issues affect features, but features do not necessarily affect programming. I feel the burnination of the xxx-vba tags would open floodgates of unnecessary commenting and useless or even entirely incorrect answers on vba-related issues by posters with little or no knowledge of vba. It seems to me it would just get very messy, very quickly.

8
  • 1
    I don't agree with this prophecy, as other languages do just fine without separating between "features" and "development"
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 14:19
  • There is also the issue that VBA comes in many different flavors: Excel, Access, Word, Autocad, CorelDraw, SpiceWorks, Burk Technology Autopilot, and tons more that I could never name. Each of them has a different set of unique objects, and their respective communities surely have customary ways of doing things. Lumping them all together into "VBA" will be a train wreck.
    – spinjector
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 18:33
  • This concern is entirely addressed by requiring an application tag to go along with the vba tag as Shog's question above explains.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 18, 2018 at 18:55
  • @spinjector There is also the issue that VBA comes in many different flavors. By analogy, Javascript also comes in many different "flavors" -- the objects available to Javascript running under Node.js are different from Javascript running in the browser; there are also different objects available between browsers.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Apr 22, 2019 at 21:10
  • The hypenated xxx-vba tags represent the exclusive application development subsystems present in vba-enabled software suites. In virtually all cases, these questions are about using the application object model (AKA the application development subsystem) from VBA. There is nothing inherently VBA about this usage; it is available to any Automation-supporting language.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Apr 22, 2019 at 21:12
  • Yes, I'm aware. I've programmed many flavors of VBA, even non-Microsoft ones in 3rd-party software. Here is my major concern: I only want to watch for Excel-VBA posts. How do I do that? Does the SO Watch system allow boolean combinations..? Aka [Excel] AND [VBA]..? Because if I set up watches for [Excel] and [VBA], I'm going to be inundated with posts about sheet formatting and/or VBA commands in Word and products I have nothing to do with, and I want none of those. So how do I filter to only "[Excel] AND [VBA]"..? That's my concern.
    – spinjector
    Commented Apr 23, 2019 at 14:13
  • So how do I filter to only "[Excel] AND [VBA]"..? That's my concern. That concern has already been raised in this answer. But your wording of flavors of VBA is inaccurate -- there are no multiple flavors of VBA; the keywords, operators, syntax, built-in data types, and basic VBA DLL library are all the same; the only distinction between environments is which libraries have been referenced. And even that is not set in stone -- depending on the task at hand, you can add a reference to the appropriate library and use its types. ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented May 9, 2019 at 16:55
  • ... For example, if you want to manipulate an instance of the Excel application, you can do so from Access, from Word, or from Excel itself.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented May 9, 2019 at 16:55
1
vote

Please, please burninate the Excel-VBA tag!

Why remove the "nice compact, single tag" in favour of using 2 separate tags?

  • It mathematics it's called "lowest common denominator".

  • With databases it's called "normalization".

The most flexibility comes from breaking data storage down to its fundamental parts.


Do you care about new users?

When a new users is tagging their VBA/Excel question (or looking for answers), they are most likely to pick excel and vba.

The same applies when someone new to the site is looking for an answer by tag.


For the reasons above, and others, I believe all compound tags should be removed, but let's start with this one.


Incidentally, here's a recent question count, by combination of tags:

  Excel or VBA tags used (others may also be present)
 ---------------------------------------- -------- -----
  [vba]+[excel]+[excel-vba]                 40541   19%
  [vba]+[excel]                             19325    9%
  [vba]+[excel-vba]                         12255    6%
  [excel]+[excel-vba]                       12293    6%
  [excel-vba]                               13649    6%
  [vba]                                     28768   13%
  [excel]                                   75521   34%

  Questions with any Excel or VBA Tag      218907
8
  • Really absolute beginners are liable not to know that they are using VBA, and are liable to pick only excel. But I think the only solution for these beginners is a prompt for vba when the user chooses excel; and relying on subsequent reviewing/retagging if the user ignores said prompt.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 18:19
  • 6
    They are more likely tot pick the [macros] tag, due to the name of the macro recorder. However that tag has no connection to VBA. A prompt would be helpfull here.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jun 27, 2018 at 22:01
  • [new users] are most likely to pick excel and vba. - based on...?
    – Wolfie
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 12:43
  • 1
    Just to go a little further with your stats, is there a scenario where users have a non vba related question regarding Excel and still makes the question fit for SO, knowing that SO is a coding forum? If so, what about them if excel-vba tag is burninated? I like your stats, but this is still a missing info for me, especially when we see that the excel only tag is the most used with 34%. Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 20:41
  • 1
    @Wolfie - based on unofficial survey of small random sample of new SO users, and SO veterans. Basically, "if you had a question like this, which tags would you pick?" I can probably query SEDE to find exact stats on original (pre-edit/PostHistory) questions from new users if that information is deemed significant enough to help sway this decision.
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 11:12
  • @V.Brunelle - I think your issue is related to the tour/FAQ's more than the tags. I think most users that post non-programming questions on SO aren't doing so intentionally. (Remember, Microsoft.com encourages new users to come here for any kind of support). Also I don't see how that would be affected with or without excel-vba.
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 11:17
  • 1
    @V.Brunelle I can think of three such areas: 1) Automating the Excel application and related objects from a programming language other than VBA; 2) Accessing / manipulating data from an Excel workbook directly (ADODB or OpenXML); 3) Worksheet functions, which if sufficiently complex, are considered a type of programming here. If excel-vba would be burninated, then all these would use excel and further tags as needed (c#, python, adodb, openxml, worksheet-functions).
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 1, 2018 at 19:57
  • 1
    @pnuts I mean the specific tag worksheet-function; it was a misspelling.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 3, 2018 at 2:22
1
vote

IMHO, there's no value to having a hyphenated tag here

Now let’s answer that with something no one was asking for: data!

Let’s look at some metrics of how would this impact some metrics that some would consider important, like average time to answer:

TagName       AvgHoursToAnswer StdevHoursToAnswer
------------- ---------------- ------------------
excel         11.2375079384795 51.9906868085633
excel-formula 8.53223698852936 45.8399886104636
excel-vba     8.85261099513078 44.6285979712553
vba           10.3014423699923 47.6375644035023

There's something interesting here. Notice how excel-formula and excel-vba has 20% better metric, also their standard deviation is lower, for at least 2013 to 30 days ago and ignoring answers older than 30 days. Now let’s look at more recent time-frame, like only 2017:

TagName       AvgHoursToAnswer StdevHoursToAnswer
------------- ---------------- ------------------
excel         10.5826682817362 48.9460805821794
excel-formula 7.11677955025602 37.4468054854611
excel-vba     8.42461959468619 42.7178860885887
vba           9.29170590635159 42.8963554812758

Still, we see that for questions asked on 2017 all of them have better metrics. Now, both queries but only for nice answers (score >= 10):

TagName       AvgHoursToAnswer StdevHoursToAnswer
------------- ---------------- ------------------
excel         17.7576634659351 67.7486056824381
excel-formula 1.50340277777778 4.17555973455374
excel-vba     10.1264616402116 49.9699284813992
vba           11.2438425925926 47.8981707740914

TagName   AvgHoursToAnswer StdevHoursToAnswer
--------- ---------------- ------------------
excel     32.057922705314  50.2784925969659
excel-vba 20.4515625       44.1700614816757
vba       18.981081871345  40.9082771129543

The reason why Excel formula questions is so low is because there are only two answers with score >= 10 in the tag since October 2013.

Let’s see the average answer score:

TagName       avgscore          stdscore
------------- ----------------- ----------------
excel         0.750747550108062 1.12763906502791
excel-formula 0.846072857443672 1.12493370194906
excel-vba     0.814591761677087 1.20213992022188
vba           0.801218007403574 1.19886504472732

Questions using Excel have lower answer score on average, but that's maybe because not many people answer them:

TagName       qcount acount aperq
------------- ------ ------ --------
excel         30061  36983  1.230265
excel-vba     18318  23036  1.257560
vba           21688  26918  1.241147

The proposal seems to cause these metrics to be worse. Tag seems to be more efficient as a signal that answerers with knowledge in Excel VBA that their expertise could be useful. This is shown by faster and better scored answers and marginally better answering rate, and that's valuable.

20
  • Note that in these queries I didn't excluded questions that had more than 1 tag, so the differences could be even more extreme.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 28, 2018 at 19:00
  • 2
    1) Wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare metrics for questions tagged excel-vba vs questions tagged with both excel and vba (as opposed to the metrics of questions tagged with each individually)? the combo tag would be replaced with both tags. 2) Also, it might be that the reason for the lower metrics on the individual tags is because of the existence of the common tag; perhaps a better comparison would be the metrics of excel-vba vs the metrics of vba+regex or vba+mshtml or tag:vba]+adodb, which have never had a combo tag.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 1:14
  • @ZevSpitz no, because the system doesn't treat each tag combination differently. I'm measuring the capacity of each individual tag of achieving an specific result: producing answers. If a question had different tags, the probabilities would be the union of all the specific tags probabilities. So if you used all three tags, you could bring about any of all three results. That's why my comment points out that the results could be even more extreme. Also, remember that I'm using the current state of the tags, not the state when they were answered.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 9:00
  • @ZevSpitz That would explain excel vs excel-vba, but not excel-vba vs vba. I included the count of questions that have any of the tag for that same reason. If you want, you could include all those tags in this query data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/868304/… and check out the results. Again, because the system behave the same whenever you use 1 vs set of tags, it doesn't make sense to evaluate combinations of tags.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 9:05
  • 2
    This assumes that it's the tag that draws answers, not the answerability/quality of the question... Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 11:38
  • @MathieuGuindon it doesn't matter that the question is perfect, if there's no discoverability it would be a unanswered question anyways. Have you known any prolific answerer that doesn't use tags one way or another to consume questions?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 11:53
  • 2
    Point is, we can't know that from the data ATM, because we don't know how many Qs are asked vs answered, how many Qs were tagged by the OP vs retagged by a regular, ...are you even following these tags we're talking about? Do you know how many of these questions are utter "gimmeh teh codez" crap? I do. Some days, it's every single question asked in the past hour that's unanswerable, downvoted and collecting close votes. Shame SEDE doesn't include the deleted questions. Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 12:08
  • You can't know anything perfectly accurate @mathieu, that doesn't mean you don't try. Even considering retaggings, if you follow previous discussions you will notice that at most there were only 500 known instances of mass retags, and they were both ways. That along with the situation where people gets jobs alert for tech they haven't worked before, you could say that people err on the side of adding more tags or keeping them on the more side, rather than less or removing them, which again points to the situation of my first comment.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 12:33
  • 1
    There can be many reasons for the difference between these tags. For example, questions in vba might be about more obscure object models (such as visio), which likely get slower answers. While I'm 100% for making decisions based on actual data, I don't think you can deduce anything relevant to this question from these statistics.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 14:12
  • @MathieuGuindon I believe those deleted questions are present in the SEDE PostsWithDeleted table, but I could be wrong.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 14:15
  • @ErikvonAsmuth might be that changed recently. Last I checked, SEDE didn't include any roomba'd posts, i.e. you could only get very-recently-deleted posts, Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 14:16
  • 1
    @MathieuGuindon I'm not aware of any change, but I've taken a random roomba'd question that came up in SOCVR over a year ago, and I can find it on SEDE. So I think you can reliably write queries to analyze roomba'd bad questions.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 14:22
  • @ErikvonAsmuth well, you could just remove those ~200 questions. Still, comparing it to the 21k questions, is a drop in the bucket. Remember, my query ignore answers older than 30 days, so late answers aren't even considered.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 15:16
  • 2
    Note that because of the structure of the joins in your query, questions with multiple tags will have more weight in the average time-to-answer than questions with a single tag. Removing that inaccuracy, and comparing the single tags against pairs of tags, shows that questions tagged excel-vba actually have a longer average time-to-first-answer than questions tagged both excel and vba. (SEDE query)
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 7:47
  • 1
    Whoa! 50.2784925969659 - that is 15 significant digits. I don't think that is warranted. How many data points are required for 15 significant digits for an estimate of a standard deviation? Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 19:37
0
votes

Reading through the answers there are a lot of very good points around VBA in Windows vs. Mac, the host application, and tag limits.

The crux of the matter, from my inspection, revolves around user knowledge - does the average user know the difference, and know how to tag their questions?

To that end, the type of solution I would present would provide more granularity to the user's intent and help them conform to a standard. I would do this by breaking apart the tagging structure in the following way:

  • Programming Language Tags: [VBA]
  • (Optional) Host Application/IDE: [Excel 16], [Word 16], [PowerPoint 16], [MS Access 16], [CAD], etc.
  • Operating System: [MacOS], [Windows 10], etc.
  • Additional Tags: [Regular Descriptor Tags]

We ask users to be more specific in asking their questions, why not help guide them with the way we tag?

This would work for other languages too:

  • Programming Language Tags: [Python 3.6]
  • (Optional) Host Application/IDE: [Jupyter]
  • Operating System: [Windows 10]
  • Additional Tags: [Seaborn], [Data-Viz]
4
  • 1
    The purpose of tags is to broadly categorize questions, not provide all possible details in the tag. For example, most questions regarding the Excel object model will have the same answer in the context of the object model for Excel 2007-2016. Similarly, until we know that the question is affected by the difference between Python 3.5 and 3.6, it is better to tag with the broader python. The issue at hand is some people seem to think that there needs to be a jupyter-python because there is a new distinct and unique version of Python when Jupyter is running; ; ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 15:53
  • ... or that newcomers to Jupyter won't know to tag with python and jupyter, or that it is easier to follow the separate jupyter and [tag:python[ tags, over following a single combination tag.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 15:54
  • Yeah, I think how S/O uses the data is different than building a construct that nudges users to thoroughly, properly tag
    – Schalton
    Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 16:25
  • There is good reason for that. Tagging a question relating to the os module, with python-3.6 will not help the next person with the exact same question but running python-3.5. Consider also, there could be tags for [timezone-gmt+5], [programmer-ethnicity-caucasian], [system-architecture-x86] -- all of these are unlikely at first glance to affect the question itself.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Sep 13, 2018 at 10:47
-9
votes

The central point of the dichotomy seems to be if "Excel VBA" is a separate language or not.

It shares the syntax and basic data types with VBA of other Office products. But the similarity ends here. The object model i.e. the project organization and the entire "standard library" is completely different. And since VBA is not a general-purpose language, the app-specific machinery in VBA code absolutely dominates any similarities in syntax and any common types.

So, it seems that there's actually no such language as "VBA" -- instead, there are several tangentially similar languages: "Excel VBA", "Word VBA", "Access VBA" etc. -- in that if you have expertise in one of them, to do anything meaningful in another one, you'll have to go through a learning curve comparable to learning a new language. At least, this is what basically defines a "language" for SO purposes.


For SO purposes, this also means that whoever is interested in and watches questions in one of these "flavors" is not likely to be interested in all of them. And AFAICS, there's no ability to watch an intersection of tags (I'm not using the feature so I don't really know).

Statistics seems to confirm that: there are 2615 users with >= 5 posts in , 310 in and 72 in both. For other intersections with , the figures are: word: 66 and 20; outlook: 25 and 11; powerpoint: 34 and 14 (for the rest of the Office apps, the numbers are even smaller).


This means that instead, the tag shall be retired and disambiguated.

Questions that don't touch any of the app-specific features are presumed to be extremily rare, but for them, something like could be created.

4
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jun 29, 2018 at 12:04
  • 2
    But the object model is not part of the language, is it? jQuery is not part of JavaScript either. See Mathieu Guindon's answer Commented Jul 2, 2018 at 19:28
  • You are currently measuring the number of users who have asked questions tagged with intersections of the <app>-vba tags. 1) This isn't equivalent to users who are interested in said intersections; the actual measurement would be to see how many users follow both tags. I wasn't able to find this information on SEDE. 2) An alternative would be to measure how many vba-tagged questions are not tagged with excel-vba and how many vba-tagged questions are tagged with multiple <app>-vba tags. 3) I would suggest that multiple tags could indicate an question's association with ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 3, 2018 at 13:25
  • 1
    ... an application, e.g. excel-2007, excel-2013 both indicate the question has to do with Excel. 4) This query shows that there are more VBA questions unassociated with any application (of the <app>-vba applications), than questions associated with 1 application (313K vs 114K) while there is a respectable number of questions associated with two applications (4.8K).
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented Jul 3, 2018 at 13:30
-22
votes

I think your questions aren't covering the total breadth of issues such thing would bring about:

  • Is there any question that is on topic for SO which uses that doesn't have anything to do with ?
  • If there isn't why wouldn't be enough?
  • If isn't enough, how would someone that want to answer questions only about the Excel specific VBA, which by itself appears to be rather extensive compared to everything else?
  • How about questions that have nothing to do with vba (remember, excel formulas are on topic, so if I follow excel questions and want to answer questions about formulae I would suddenly find myself with a mixed bag of VBA questions and formula question)?
  • What about other office vba objects, like access, word, outlook, etc.?
  • What makes special compared to other hypernated tags? Only the "endless debates"?
10
  • 8
    The statement of your 4th question answers your first.
    – Dave
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:00
  • 4
    Excel questions already are "a mixed bag of VBA and formulas", since it often boils down to "this is fairly complicated and I'm trying to get it done without VBA if possible, but if it can be shown that's impossible then bring on the VBA". If anything it'd be nice if the formula experts can weigh in on questions that start off presuming VBA is necessary... but they probably already do. Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:02
  • @Dave I know. With the first I'm asking the more general question: which other topics that aren't related to vba are on topic, be it formulas or something else.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:20
  • 2
    1) Yes. 2) N/A, see 1. 3) this is a fragment that doesn't ultimately ask anything 4) tag them with just excel obviously. 5) Tag them with the application tag where appropriate. 6) See your own words in 3. It's huge compared to the others.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:32
  • @TylerH 4) Yeah, so what about those tagged also with vba? Why someone that follows only excel should see vba questions?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:50
  • @TylerH 3) Its huge, but so it is access, why nobody is talking about access?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:50
  • 2
    @Braiam Well going forward, they won't, necessarily; this is only for questions currently tagged excel-vba so that tag information that may be useful is not lost. As for someone following Excel that doesn't want to see VBA, they can add VBA to their ignored or hidden tag list, or do a custom search for [excel] -[vba] or whatever tag combination they want. As for access... no that tag family is not really huge. The excel tag family (e.g questions with [excel-vba] and [vba] is more than an order of magnitude larger.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 20:55
  • 5
    Yes, there are thousands and thousands of questions on SO that concern Excel but have no connection to VBA. You really could've just looked at the tag instead of asking that question, so since I've answered it I'm going to ask that you at least try to research your other questions.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:22
  • @Shog9 but you didn't include that question nor the results of your research, so somebody gotta ask. I had researched it several iterations back, but came to the same conclusion: since tags are means for answerers to find questions they are able to answer, excel-vba seems to be pretty effective doing so compared to the alternatives.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:39
  • 10
    I explicitly requested that folks not take this opportunity to challenge Excel's topicality. That's in the question. I linked to plenty of past discussions if you want more info, but I'm not trying to rehash all that here.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 21:41

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