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By "educated" I mean: "be aided in their personal improvement as a developer, and their use of the site" but that was a bit wordy. I don't mean it in a condescending way.

This evening I happened upon the following question which is essentially a question about the this keyword in javascript, which changes scopes in ways that aren't obvious. Naturally, I marked it as a duplicate of this protected question because reading it would not only solve the current problem for the OP, but also prevent future related problems.

OP complained about "***** duplicates", and after querying what was wrong with a duplicate, I tried to educate the OP on why a post being marked a duplicate of that kind of protected question is a good thing.

Now, perhaps the mod read as far as the first responses to the above, since OP replied "dude it's like 100000 lines long and this is a simple problem", so in a similar vein I had replied "dude do you understand the nuances of the this keyword? No, because you're having this problem. Read the duplicate so you can understand it and prevent future problems." I understand that mimicry may not have been the best way to respond, but it was more meant as a "look, this will help you fix it. What more convincing do you need?"

I then went on to elaborate by saying something along the lines of this:

The reason that we mark questions like this as duplicates of those kinds of protected questions isn't because we're lazy, or we don't want to answer, but because it's more of a "give a man a fish and he's fed for a day, teach a man to fish and he's fed for the rest of his life" kind of thing. You can either be a bad developer, and ask a question every time you have a problem, and never understand the causes, or you can be a good developer, you can learn the nuances of the language you are using, and understand the root causes of these issues, and maybe even help other people one day."

Looking back at the question again, I find that a mod had deleted all the comments including the duplicate link* meaning that OP can't even investigate the topic in more depth unless 4 other people agree to mark the question as duplicate.

* Since writing this, I note that Cerbrus has marked it as a duplicate so OP can now see the link to the other question should they want to read it.

I don't entirely understand why this was branded as a slinging match, unless there were other comments afterwards that I didn't see? Is trying to simultaneously solve OP's issue and encouraging them to be a more self-sufficient developer by learning about the technologies they use now something we can't do? If we can do it, how can we not have it branded as a slinging match?

The mod's advice was "No more comments here please. Use your votes", but the question in and of itself wasn't bad. Maybe not even poorly researched, since the behaviour of the "this" keyword isn't necessarily obvious. It doesn't deserve a downvote. Maybe it even deserves an upvote.

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  • 5
    if mod arrived, some flags were flying..., mod just clean up comments, calm everybody down and continue to next flags... but yeah in this case mod did also ping Cerbrus which is gold hammer to check if duplicate. What more would you expect? Commented May 16, 2018 at 12:52
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    A moderator just does not have many attractive options to calm down a user that is upset. Your comment(s) will be deleted, as a responsible SO user you are least likely to complain about it. Well, usually :) Characterizing it as a "slinging match" is perhaps not so moderate, she's still learning. Commented May 16, 2018 at 12:53
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    Also while you were writing this (and before the dupe-hammer) the duplicate comment was undeleted. Commented May 16, 2018 at 12:56
  • @Andre I didn't see that :) Good to know! Commented May 16, 2018 at 12:57
  • @Hans My main takeaways were that: 1. without the duplicate comment, OP had no way to learn more (I've now read Andre's comment) 2. relatively benign comments with positive intentions are now "slinging matches" Commented May 16, 2018 at 12:57
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    Without having access to the whole thread, is difficult to make judgments. But your "mimicry" comment can very easily perceived as mocking, so from that point forward the whole thing is rather suspect.
    – yivi
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:02
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    But in a general sense, I think it is very hard not to offend someone if you try to educate them and they are not interested in said education. Better to comment less in these situations, and vote more. You had already VtC, job done.
    – yivi
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:04
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    While I agree with the closure, I kind of see the OP's point. The answers they got were a one-operator edit of their code with no explanation and a pointer to a very in-depth, detailed explanation of the this keyword. Something in between was probably called for. Maybe something that highlighted the specific issue they were having? Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:07
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    @Yvette Thank you for that. I didn't know you had done that. Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:09
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    @john that's ok we can both take something out of it. I'll watch how I word my comments and I recommend you walk away about 5 comments before you did.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:11
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    One day we'll be able to give the mods the power to fire tranquilizers at the OP and anyone else caught up in a huff. Until then, they can only mitigate the damage of an argument or whatever by simpler means like deleting comments.
    – Davy M
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 18:44
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    Welcome to the 'rude-poilice-state' where everything that doesn't specifically blow rainbows up everyone else's asses is considered too controversial for this site.
    – user4039065
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 22:32
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    As somebody who finds answers on this site nearly always by googling existing ones but (rarely) by having to ask, I don't come here to be 'educated', I (normally) come here for a point of syntax or semantics. The manuals for most technologies describe a solution - this site describes problems and provides solutions - that is its main purpose (until AI becomes smart enough to allow problem-based searching of manual text).
    – Rich
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 23:07
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    Your comment was fine up to the "You can either be a bad developer, and ask a question every time you have a problem, and never understand the causes, or you can be a good developer ....". That's a false dichotomy, rhetorical, comes across as condescending... just let your frustration go. Motivate people to learn, but don't chew them out for perceived lack of curiosity...
    – smci
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 7:51
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    @Davy M: We have them, they're called account suspensions. Much more heavy-handed though.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 8:35

3 Answers 3

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After responding to a flag on the post I found the following, which is what I categorise as a slinging match. If adults cannot talk in a civilised manner without a thread deteriorating into two-way insults, then they will be told to quit arguing and use the mods tools available to them. In this case Voting. (close voting, up down voting, delete voting)

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Call it what you will, but the thread quickly deteriorated.

The question is closed. I undeleted the duplicate link and asked a gold badger to review the post, which he did and promptly closed it.

There was nothing disingenuous, just simple moderation of a thread that had more angst in it than constructive good. The post had two answers, at least one working, in terms of OP clarification, the comments were no longer needed.

There is an irony in making a complaint on meta when some of your behavior was off base. Don't argue with people. State your case and walk away. Comments and being nice has been a big deal on meta over these past weeks and yours and the OP's comments were unacceptable.

Likewise I'll watch my word choice.

Yes, I shouldn't have deleted the linked duplicate comment, it is a simple thing for me to undelete it. You could equally have pinged me as you did, requesting I undelete it rather than posting yet another hostile remark.

As you note, I did not stop you from going to meta, as this is your right and it's good to get clarity over these issues. Anyway, you're right, a slinging match is not professional. I'll choose my words more carefully next time.

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    I don't think it's fair to blame John here. John seems to have gone beyond what can be expected to explain why the dupe vote was cast. The OP of that question resorted to foul language.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:10
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    No, there is some blame to be laid at my feet. I may have been a little bit sharp in response to the swearing by OP. I'd forgotten my wording of that when I wrote the original post. Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:12
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    @Cerbrus oh I hold the OP responsible, but John's mistake was not walking away sooner. That's the biggest trick we all need to learn, state our case once and then walk away. We're not responsible for "making" people see our POV or take our advice and that's where flags and votes come in as quality place checks
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:13
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    "The irony is, you're here complaining about my actions and it's your behaviour that was off base." <-- that comes across as blaming John instead of the OP, to me. If that's not what you were saying, I seem to have misinterpreted it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:14
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    It's interesting to see moderators confirming that the mere act of posting comments, no matter how constructive, polite, or useful, will result in said comments being deleted and the user personally insulted. Telling people to not comment at all and walk away, because posting literally anything is inappropriate and meriting of a moderator comment insulting you is just...wow. The lack of self awareness here is just staggering.
    – Servy
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:23
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    @Servy wow, just wow, if people are having poor comment thread that's unravelling into a brawl, well mods are supposed to do something and letting said contributors know they need to stop is helpful. It happens all the time... but yet you comment here.. the lack of self awareness is staggering :)
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:25
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    GUYS! Don't make us have a meta meta discussion about my meta discussion. Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:25
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    @YvetteColomb If the comments are inappropriate then delete them because they are inappropriate, not because you claim that posting anything at all is not okay and the only reasonable course of action is to walk away. If you want to say that what they said, specifically, was not okay, then say that. You didn't though, you said that the only course of action they're allowed to take is to not comment.
    – Servy
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:26
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    I think the problem is that people, especially newer users feel their question being marked as a duplicate is negative. I don't know if it's because I'm getting old (I turned 30 last Friday), but I learnt to program through trial and error and reading examples. It saddens me to see so many people who expect cookie cutter answers to common problems, or questions whose titles can be Googled and the first hit is the answer. I think to some extent that colours my attitude towards the site a little because I see more of that than I do of good questions. Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:28
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    @Servy it was implied by stating a slinging match was not going to help why people needed to stop commenting. There was no trouble when John commented about something else. So stop twisting things to suit your ideas.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:28
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    @NickA You say that, and yet lots of people are very explicitly saying that they're stopping commenting entirely because of how poorly moderators are handling situations exactly like this. Yvette, and other moderators, are actively stifling useful comments from being posted. You can't just assume anyone reading this will assume that what Yvette meant was that you shouldn't post inappropriate comments but that it's fine to post polite ones, especially given that even the constructive comments were deleted, so that's not what's being done.
    – Servy
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:33
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    @NickA Yes, Yevette has acknowledged that the comment should have been worded different. I see nothing about acknowledging that posting appropriate and useful comments is fine, and that it's only a problem when people are posting comments that are no longer professional, as you claim was meant. Not only is the meta post still claiming that the only valid course of action is to do nothing, and that no possible comment can be appropriate, but the appropriate and useful comments were deleted, demonstrating that that's the policy. Actions speak louder than words.
    – Servy
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:43
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    @Servy: Pretty much everything after (and including) "fucking duplicates" merited deletion. John's "Do you despise learning" comment was obviously aggressive, and so forth. If an OP is not in a helpful mood (as indicated by that comment), then it's best to disengage, because otherwise you just get into an argument, as happened here. However informative those might have been, they were not "constructive" because of how combative they were. Commented May 16, 2018 at 13:49
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    @NicolBolas Even the wording of this meta answer is dramatically more inflammatory and combative than the comments Yvette has deleted of John's. (And that's ignoring the comments Yvette posted to the post in question.) None of this is being corrected.
    – Servy
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 14:02
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    @Servy: When did Yvette say that "it's not appropriate to comment at all"? Yvette said "Don't argue with people. State your case and walk away." It's pretty hard to state one's case without commenting. Also, I don't see where Yvette said that going to meta was inappropriate. Commented May 16, 2018 at 14:03
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Avoid having discussions in comment. Some people just aren't receptive to that and that's not what comments were made for.

If you want to leave a comment, it should pretty much fall into one of these categories:

  • Clarification, criticism or minor or transient information directly related to the question (not what was said in the comments, unless you're trying to clarify a clarification which probably belongs in the question).

  • Explain an action you took on the question, without it being a direct reply to another comment.

    I am voting to close this question as a duplicate of ... because the issue here is a lack of understanding of ..., which the linked post explains. [If you disagree that it's a duplicate, please [edit] your post to clarify how it differs.]

  • Link to Meta posts or the Help Center if you want to provide an explanation of how some part of the site works.[1]

    I'd recommend doing this above trying to explain it in comments, because with the latter you're just speaking with your own authority, which regular users don't have that much of and/or your authority hasn't been established for this user yet, and will likely lead to an extended discussion. If you link to somewhere else, it makes the advice (seem) more official (especially if it's the Help Center) and arguments and complaints are less likely in general and they're more likely to be against the post instead of you personally, which is easier to not take personally and just ignore to prevent it from turning into an extended and possibly frustrating discussion.

  • For all of the above, I'd recommend trying to speak like a polite robot (if you can figure out what that means).

    We close questions as duplicates of more general posts because that gives an understanding of the underlying problem, which leads to you being able to solve not only this problem, but also related problems you have in future.

    Not any of that about teaching someone to fish or the difference between bad and good developers or rejecting help or what we could do.

DO NOT:

  • Ask rhetorical, tangential or pointless questions (like "do you despise learning").

  • Repeat yourself, rephrase what you've already said or further try to justify what you've done (beyond a single comment, at most).


[1]: If you're regularly providing explanations of site features, that might be a sign that (a) you're explaining too much or (b) the UI should be changed to better explain things (but of course you can't do much about the latter apart from posting a Meta discussion or feature request).

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  • 4
    I agree with everything except "Don't explain how things work". You absolutely have to explain how features like "mark as duplicate" work. Because "mark as duplicate", if you take it too personally, means "I am too lazy to answer", and many users take things personally here. You have to explain that using the feature is not a deliberate attack against OP or a passive-aggressive action.
    – anatolyg
    Commented May 16, 2018 at 17:08
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    “the UI should be changed to better explain things” I feel like that would be a good idea here. When a question gets closed as a duplicate, new users should get additional information about what this actually means and how that isn’t a bad thing. The short text on the duplicate info itself is not really conveying the intention properly there.
    – poke
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 7:35
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If the goal is making the asker aware that good duplicate closures are a win-win situation -- and that is certainly a worthy goal -- one reasonable approach as an individual close voter is using a comment to make the usefulness of the duplicate clear, thus giving the asker an object lesson. Show, don't tell.

The suggested question is relevant to your issue because [a brief clarifying remark]. In particular, have a look at [some specific section of the long answer to the canonical target]. Feel free to leave a comment if it still isn't clear.

Any of the three sentences in the sample comment might be omitted, depending on what the circumstances call for. I recommend leaving such a comment at the same time the close vote is cast, thus acting preemptively rather than reactively.

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