-43

Some problems:

  • Large numbers of downvotes scare people away

    • This contributes to Stack Overflow’s reputation of being an unfriendly place
  • Upvotes are made to “counterbalance” downvotes (this happens because of the previous) instead of because a question or answer is good

    • Users feel like their votes don’t matter
  • A single upvote cancels out either 2.5 or 5 downvotes and can result in net positive reputation for very bad posts (this tends to happen because of the previous)

    • People are incentivized to keep wrong answers around!

My suggestion for a solution to these problems is to, for negative-scored questions and answers, display −1 as the score and apply −5 to reputation¹. In other words:

  • continue displaying −1 as the score for any post scored lower than −1
  • cap rep loss from any post at −5¹
  • make downvotes worth the same as upvotes for negative-scored posts

Let’s fix the C/C++² undefined behaviour dogpiles! The net wins for undetected sockpuppets on −4-scored questions! The apparent³ incentive to delete and re-ask downvoted questions instead of fixing them! The general frustration and feeling of unwelcomeness of new users, even if they totally deserve it for not reading the FAQ⁴! Let’s free people of the guilt of voting on questions that need improvement lest too many share the opinion, and even things out for popular tags.


¹ or something – is solicited
² heh heh
³ it results in a question ban, but they don’t know that and will do it anyway
⁴ just so we’re clear: this is not true

43
  • 15
    The solution is not about points/votes. The real solution is making people read how to ask a good question and not do the typical "Do my homework for me because I am lazy to put in the effort." I remember having to crack open a book to find an answer. There was no google/stackoverflow. People are just so used to getting thinks quickly that they do not put the time and effort into things. I just wish half the people would spend an extra 60 seconds writing full sentences and using the shift key to uppercase letters. Heck half the time if they search their title on Google, it is the first result Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 1:20
  • 26
    The ~10 years I been on this site, people do not change their bad questions. They complain when we ask them nicely to update it with info. People just want answers and some times people spend more time complaining about us not helping them than it would have taken to add the code to the question. I think I spend more time asking people to give us the error message in JavaScript questions than I do answering them. Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 1:25
  • 5
    And the other issue with bad questions is rep hungry people will answer them before they can be improved. Saw that 4 times today with "do my homework" questions. Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 1:37
  • 2
    I see, the value of both kinds of votes changes. I read is as using the current value of upvotes. Might be better expressed as "upvotes have no effect until they equal the number of downvotes", or something like that.
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 1:43
  • 1
    And than you have the people that up-vote horrible questions because they are getting their daily point quota of imaginary points. Those people screw up any balances you try to put in place. We all see it. A question is asked and 30 seconds later, it has 2 up-votes and it will be closed within minutes. Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 1:45
  • 5
    Is the "capped -1" shown to everyone, or only to the OP? If it's to everyone, then I think they will be confused when their vote doesn't change the score (unless for those 1k+ rep users who can see the voting breakdown)
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 4:50
  • 10
    @Ry︁ How would new users learn what really bad questions look like when every downvoted question look the same (in votes)? Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 6:47
  • 2
    Meh - the whole premise was wrong in the first place. If a user is put off by a Q&A site by negative votes on bad questions, they are not professional/enthusiast programmers. Now we are stuck forever with 'i=i++', NPE and 'Homework Sunday' :( Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 7:18
  • 2
    I did not downvote this post. At least is suggests something that does not require more effort from the skilled and experienced developers who try to give good answers to good questions, unlike the usual 'explain downvotes' and 'appeal procedure' super-dupes that just want someone else to waste volunteer time on bad questions:( Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 7:23
  • 1
    @ModusTollens: I’m not sure that new users learn that way to begin with? The number of downvotes a question gets doesn’t always reflect whether it’s really bad – just whether it’s at the right intersection of bad and visible enough to get a lot of downvotes – and the ones that are really bad get deleted quickly, not left up to serve as examples.
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 7:38
  • 2
    @ModusTollens stop being reasonable. How can I have a good rant when everyone around is being reasonable? It's not fair! Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 8:20
  • 1
    "more useful [(usefulness may vary)]?" Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 9:42
  • 11
    I keep on hearing people say "Stack Overflow has a bad reputation of being unfriendly," yet whenever I talk to a fellow developer in real life, Stack Overflow for them is a great repository to find answers to all sorts of programming questions. The only people I really see calling it unfriendly are people who come here expecting to do a code dump of something that isn't working hoping that SO will debug and fix it for them or who drop a list of requirements expecting SO to provide a coded solution. And those people feel it's unfriendly because they didn't get what they want.
    – Davy M
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 10:58
  • 3
    At some point, we have to adapt to new users, yes. But at the same time, users have to adapt to us. It's a two way street. I feel this moves the mark too much in new users' favor, and away from the very people who the site needs to survive; the high rep users who actually care about quality. What sort of message are you sending when you weight new user retention over established users?
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 22:50
  • 3
    I feel it's a pap for new users, so they don't feel so bad, when that's not at all what downvotes are for. They're meant to show the subjective quality of a post for future readers, and you're removing that in the name of trying to keep people who...honestly, aren't really worth keeping. Why should we want to keep people who make no effort to learn? Whereas signalling to future readers that this post is strongly negative sends a message to take it with a large grain of salt.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 22:59

3 Answers 3

8

My instinctive suspicion about this suggestion is that even if multiple downvotes were hidden, most people who feel unwelcome because of downvoting now would still feel unwelcome, only for other reasons: because extra effort is asked of them, or because their posts get criticised, or because their questions are closed, or because they get quetsion banned, and so forth. Questions like "Is Stack Overflow unwelcoming?" seem to induce a confusing mix of perception and reality (cf. this recent ruckus), and my gut feeling is that a change like this one would drag us a little further into that.

Now, if I suspend the aforementioned feeling (say, by telling myself "It's okay, this might make at least some people happier, and perhaps the site would run more smoothly as a consequence"), I end up with a view rather similar to the one held by Makoto: this wouldn't be an unreasonable PR move, but it would bring in a lot of practical complications. I will mention a few additional ones:

  • If no one sees the real negative scores below -1, there is a risk that very few people will be aware that further negative votes count and are important for several moderation mechanisms. (It is important to keep in mind that many -- and probably most -- regular contributors with high reputation aren't Meta regulars.) That might be mitigated by showing real negative scores to 1k+ users (i.e. the ones currently able to see the score breakdown).

  • I'm not entirely convinced this change would deliver us from counterbalancing upvotes. My home tag is [haskell], one of the "nicest" language tags you'll find, one in which dogpiles are relatively rare -- and yet I regularly see incomprehensible upvotes being cast on poor questions with -1 score.

  • Would "mak[ing] downvotes worth the same as upvotes for negative-scored posts" mean that, given a 0 score question, a downvote followed by an upvote would lead to a different reputation change than an upvote followed by a downvote? That would feel rather arbitrary. (Or is the idea that reputation for a post would be recalculated every time it crossed the 0 score boundary?)

19

I kind of miss the ulterior motive of your request. It would appear to be a reincarnation of the Summer of Love, just to retain as many users as possible, despite their actions and their effect on the community.

I have a counter-proposal: shadowban people who consistently upvote bad questions, meaning their votes would appear to be registered for them - but not for anyone else.

Seriously, Stack Overflow has no lack of influx of questions nor users. If anything, it's chasing away knowledgeable users by the amount of crap that gets posted and not closed, let alone downvoted or deleted.

Asking a question is hard, asking a good question even harder. This site definitely shouldn't turn into a "noob-friendly" zone where all we care about are feewings, because that creates one environment and one environment only: one of the blind leading the blind.

If -1 would be the new low, then why would anyone still vote to score a really bad post even lower?

5
  • 2
    ...and then, as the 'knowledgeable' skilled/experienced developers give up, there are fewer user-moderators to downvote and close the crap, so it stays around longer, and gets answered, and the answers get upvoted, and another generation of skilled users thinks: 'why am I wasting my free time on the same old rubbish day-after-day'....... and so life goes on, (as does death). Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 9:57
  • @MartinJames at least all those posters of crap feel welcome! Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 10:41
  • 2
    "I have a counter-proposal: shadowban people who consistently upvote bad questions" There are a number of big problems here. First, many of these questions end up with positive scores, not negative scores, because the users looking to feed the help vampires outnumber the users interested in quality content in many tags or topics, or more hit a given question, etc. The whole problem here is that votes are how we identify what questions are good/bad, and the problematic behavior here is people not using those votes well, so we don't have an accurate view of what posts are actually bad.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 14:08
  • “If -1 would be the new low, then why would anyone still vote to score a really bad post even lower?” To put forward their opinion on a question, like always, and to alter the real score to affect automated processes/review, where people can see it/etc.. The purpose of voting isn’t to try to reach low number records. (And personally, I don’t vote on bad posts if they’re already low enough, but would if it didn’t change the count displayed to the owner.)
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 19:39
  • @Ry︁ "and to alter the real score to affect automated processes/review, where people can see it/etc.." -- With further negative votes having little in the way of immediately visible effect, I wouldn't be surprised if, outside of the circle of Meta regulars, most users ended up unaware of "real scores" being a thing. One way of mitigating that might be showing the real scores to all 1k+ users (i.e. those who would be able to see the voting breakdown anyway).
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 5, 2018 at 6:33
-4

Honestly I like what this approach is attempting to accomplish.

  • We eliminate the noise of "Stack Overflow is mean" by basically giving the perception of us not being all that mean.
  • We eliminate the dogpile effect of users saying, "Oh, a poorly scored question. I too will add my downvote."
  • We eliminate cases in which users will spontaneously upvote a question just because it was downvoted and they disagree with the downvote, not because the question was any good or didn't deserve the downvote, but because they disagreed with the vote itself.

Tl;dr: we make moderation more efficient and effective by lying about moderation.

A couple of issues:

  • This doesn't cleanly solve the dogpile problem. Instead of a user seeing a question scored at -4, they'll see it at -1 and still want to downvote it.
  • You didn't say anything about retroactively scoring questions, or the ramifications of that if we did. We can't realistically have two reputation types since that'd make for a colossal headache.
  • How is "success" measured or identified? More people sticking around? More downvotes? More closed questions?

On that point of "more people sticking around", I think the issue being underscored here is that we have fewer experts sticking around, whereas we get every single CompSci 101 student that we could support (and then some). How would this proposal actually address this point?

I like what you're getting at. I don't think it gets at it.

7
  • 3
    As is brought up in comments, yes, not telling people when they do bad things does make them feel better, because it feels bad to be told that you did bad things, but then those people don't realize they were doing something bad, and so are going to make no attempt to improve their problematic behavior, or even realize they're expected to.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 15:20
  • Yes, but @Servy we both know how we define "bad" things on Stack Overflow is a moving target at best. There is no universally and consistently applied standard for when questions are up or downvoted, and some questionable questions slip through the cracks. So being told you're bad for reasons unknown does suck. However, I still agree with you here in principle; we don't solve anything if we just flat-out lie about the moderation we're doing here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 15:21
  • 4
    There's lots of information in the help center, in the FAQ's, on meta, and in tutorials on the internet at large about how to ask a good question (on SO and in general). While, yes, it is hard to ask questions, I don't think it's a result of a lack of information on how to ask good questions, it's just that it takes a fair bit of time and effort to actually do it, which people aren't often willing to put in. Yes, there will be borderline cases where it's not clear to a user if, or why, their question is problematic, but for the vast majority of questions, that's not the case.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 15:24
  • 1
    Oh, and in my experiences a very large portion of bad questions attract comments with additional information on how the question is problematic and could be improved. There's also close reasons that provide more specific guidance on what's problematic about a question.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 15:26
  • @Servy: In my personal experience I'll have to disagree. No one told me why that question was bad. It's tough in my mind to see what one or two things could be improved in that question to make it less bad. So clearly I did a bad thing. I have studied and perused all of the guidance and documentation and I felt strongly that this question was suitable and on-topic. Yet...here it lies, below the watermark. I see where you're coming from that typically questions get that kind of treatment, but not all questions get that lucky.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 15:29
  • 2
    That's...one question. I didn't say all quesitons get comments, just lots of them. And as I said before, there will be borderline questions that aren't easy to diagnose why they're problematic, but most questions will find clear guidance on how to improve via the sources I've mentioned. It's certainly not worth refusing to tell all people that their posts are problematic just because a small minority of post authors don't have the tools to figure out how to fix their questions, even though the rest can.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 15:47
  • “We eliminate the noise of "Stack Overflow is mean" by basically giving the perception of us not being all that mean.” Making sure we’re on the same page: that perception would reflect reality. Downvotes aren’t mean, but people think they are. (I strategically avoid downvoting for this reason and proposed this change in part to do it freely.) Re: dogpiles: these are partially accurate votes, so the effect continuing to exist shouldn’t do much harm. Re: success: by fewer angry comments and account self-deletions, more self-improved questions, no acceleration of the general decline in quality.
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented Apr 4, 2018 at 19:34

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .