38

Occasionally I come across a user who is signing their posts and adding their organisation details to the signature. This usually takes a form similar to this:

Kind regards,

Mylene Name
Widgets Inc

Normally when folks add regards and a signature, I trim them as a matter of course. However, if someone is posting on behalf of a company (e.g. as a developer evangelist) then this is useful conflict-of-interest information that helps readers make decisions about the information within.

I am usually keen to treat this sort of thing as fluff, and have done in the past, but I am having doubts about doing so, because it could be useful. I don't want to discourage helpers from disclosing their affiliations either.

One solution is to ask posters to put their company name in their username, but that may be regarded as an arduous change if the only reason is to trim signature fluff. What is the best approach here?

Example

For example, consider the following developer evangelist answer:

Yes, that configuration is possible. You'd need to upgrade to the WhizzBang instance with two extra Whistles. You can do so through the following YAML configuration:

config:
    moar_cats: true
    extra_waffles: true

Tyler Bell
WhizzBang Cloud Ltd

In this case, it is helpful to know that the poster is from WhizzBang Cloud Ltd, because they're recommending upgrades for the company they work for.

Further reading on handling self-promotion, and when conflicts of interest should be disclosed, is available in Brad's answer here.

Future development

As an aside, and one for the future: perhaps Stack Exchange could develop a special profile type to say that the account "posts on behalf of"? Either it could be active at all times, or the answerer could tick a box (just like Community Wiki) to say whether they're answering as themselves or an organisation.

This would be an ideal solution, since it draws attention to the affiliation in a standard fashion, and removes unsightly signature fluff. However, it'd be good to agree a solution for now.

10
  • 6
    Does the signature help future people having the same problem? No. So don't.
    – user202729
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 12:11
  • 5
    @user202729: don't trim them or don't add them?
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 12:11
  • 17
    In answer to your query about whether the signature helps people, then that's exactly the point I am making. Organisational information helps readers interpret recommendations in light of the possibility of conflicts of interest. Signatures are normally fluff, but perhaps not so in these cases.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 12:18
  • 1
    I don't understand. Some example please? / In my opinion questions should be objective so "recommendation" seems to be unrelated here.
    – user202729
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 12:20
  • 3
    Request for one of the downvoters: please add a Leave it (or It depends) answer (with substantiation) so it's clear what you mean with that downvote ...
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 13:52
  • Possibly related: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5029/…
    – Jerrybibo
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 0:32
  • 1
    That's somewhat related, @Jerrybibo, but it doesn't take into account the point of this question, which is that org info might be information we would like to keep in answers.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 0:46
  • 1
    I could've sworn a moderator answered this before...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 3:42
  • 3
    I'm a developer evangelist and I tend to sign my answers when they are questions from customers of the product I'm evangelising. This is more of a disclosure than anything else. I do it most when the question (or even perhaps the answer) relates to a competing product or company in attempt to reveal any biases, intentional or not. Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 0:23
  • 6
    As a developer evangelist, I add a disclosure to the start of my answers on product questions, not a signature. It sets the context up front and is required by the guidelines. I do not add anything to other answers I write that are for technologies outside of my company.
    – philnash
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 1:18

5 Answers 5

26

Change it

You should never leave it alone when editing a post, but what you should do about it depends on the content of the question and answer.

If the affiliation has nothing to do with any relevant technologies, delete it. Irrelevant info is not useful. An irrelevant mention of your company or technology constitutes the exact kind of advertising we wish to discourage.

If the information constitutes useful conflict-of-interest information, edit it to make this explicit. E.g., when the question or answer references library Y,

Disclosure: I work for company X, who built and maintains the Y library.

Making it an explicit disclosure removes all ambiguity for readers who don't know about the relationship of the user's company to the technology. Such disclosures are required by Stack Overflow; it's documented in the help page I linked before. They should also be brief and undistracting, since the main focus of the post should be the actual answer.

Yes, this means you might need to research the technologies and the company if you're reviewing a topic you're not familiar with. Aside from this, handle the answer as you normally would. Make sure it's a real answer, isn't link only, is correct, is well presented, etc.

New Features

No new features are needed here. The profile is perfectly sufficient for a global declaration of affiliation. An in line disclosure is sufficient for declaring conflict of interest. This keeps irrelevant info out of questions and answers.

8
  • 1
    As an editor I might feel worried about removing affiliation info where there might be community disagreement about its necessity, and if there is such doubt I would rather side with the author. For example, if a person's answers are all of a developer evangelist nature for a product, would it be a bad outcome if I were to convert all their regards/name/company to an inline statement of the form "Disclosure: I am a developer evangelist for WhizzBang Cloud Ltd" as a first sentence?
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:13
  • That has the effect of removing unsightly signatures, at least, and the remaining material would struggle to qualify as promotional.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:14
  • @halfer "Affiliation" means that you are either a major contributor or are employed by the company that owns a particular piece of software. It's really just a type of conflict of interest. If you're not clear on whether an affiliation exists, you should do what you should do in any other case where you're missing important information: seek out that knowledge. Sometimes that means Googling, sometimes it means leaving a comment asking the author, sometimes it means asking others, probably in that order. ;) I would not edit it to say something that you're not clear on the veracity of.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:34
  • Ah, I disagree with that - that's too much of a burden being shifted onto editors. Posts need to be editable by looking at the post only. I'd rather get in wrong (in the sense of being slightly promotional) by adding an unnecessary disclosure line than leave a signature as it is.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:38
  • @halfer I should mention that my "never" is in the context of editing the post. If you don't feel you have enough information to edit a post and don't want to look into it, leaving the post for others to clean up is a valid option (hence the Skip button in review queues). No dogmatism here. But making a post more wrong isn't a valid option in any case I can think of. "Do no harm" is a great motto to edit by.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:39
  • 2
    R-R-R-Research? I thought that was something only question askers had to do /s
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 12:03
  • @BoltClock It's a Hell we must all endure. ;)
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 21, 2018 at 5:37
  • usr2564301 has suggested this answer is accepted, but I could have accepted either of these. Thanks both for considering the issue.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 28, 2018 at 13:10
50

Delete.

It attempts to provide (or strongly suggests) credibility to an answer as being "from a reliable source". But it is no guarantee the answer is correct! The inverse can also be true – the answer would still be correct without that signature.

Also, signatures in general are discouraged:

In general, taglines and signatures are strongly discouraged. [..] The official policy on signatures has been added to the /faq on each site: [..] Please don't use signatures or taglines in your posts. Every post you make is already "signed" with your standard user card ..."
(Meta SE: Are taglines & signatures disallowed?)

and they are mentioned as a "Don't" in the Help:

Do not use signature, taglines, or greetings.

Every post you make is already “signed” with your standard user card, which links directly back to your user page. If you use an additional signature or tagline, it will be removed to reduce noise in the questions and answers.
(https://stackoverflow.com/help/behavior)

If someone is answering questions on behalf of an organization, this should be in the user's profile. If it is deemed necessary to put forward that an answer is written as some part of an official company statement, this should be put in the answer itself (preferably in the very first line).

Example from in-line disclosure:

I am one of the original authors of FooBarz. FooBarz will work very well as a log for event sourcing. It is fault-tolerant [...]
(original: https://stackoverflow.com/a/22597637)

Example from a Not Really Useful Answer:

I work on behalf of findYourSmizmar.com

If you need permissions set up for a directory you can raise a ticket providing the full details and we can set the permissions as requested to a directory of your choice.

www.findYourSmizmar.com/support

Regards,

Kif
(original: https://stackoverflow.com/a/8068479)

Example of Not An Answer:

Do you still see the issue? If so please raise a Hex Support ticket or contact us at [email protected] (providing zone name, resource group name and your current wizard level).

Regards,

Granjean Hockthroat, Designated Cheese Monger, UU Dept. of Mathemagicks
(original, now deleted: https://stackoverflow.com/a/41633612)

-- usr2564301
Graphic designer, programmer

14
  • 1
    Thanks for the answer. I have seen real-life instances of your findYourSmizmar example on the main site, though to me, that looks like a different question, which is: is it OK to have an answer that is "raise a support ticket"? That may well be the correct answer (e.g. the provision of passwords is rightly confidential) but it is not very useful for other readers (other than saying that a support ticket is the right approach). I don't know if I want to give that question treatment here though.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 13:12
  • However, one way of interpreting your answer is to say editors could convert organisational sigs to a first sentence introduction. Would that solve the problem?
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 13:12
  • @halfer, I was searching for answers matching the pattern you mention. ... Lots of bad answers there! On second thought my ex. #2 may be some form of NAA although I found an even more blatant example (#3). But note that in these 2 the signature does not help or add any more information.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 13:15
  • Can -> worms. This answer could very well do without the information that the answerer is from that firm. But I'm still hoping to find an "official" answer that got proven wrong by another accepted answer.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 13:28
  • I'm certainly happy to accept that "official" answerers have been wrong. Assuming such answers exist, if they also contain (useful) pre-sales information, I am wondering how easy it will be to detect (borderline) self-promotion (especially if we say that this stuff belongs in profiles).
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 14:03
  • 9
    W.r.t. to disclosure to avoid spam penalty it has certainly been said before on meta that this must be in the post and having it in the user profile is not sufficient. Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 16:45
  • @MartinSmith: then post an answer for a signature to "Leave it". Or, not mentioned by halfer but certainly a valid option in itself: "Add it".
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 21:33
  • @MartinSmith: I've added what I think is your view as another answer.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 22:12
  • 1
    I don't have any strong view. Just pointing out the inconsistency between the advice here and elsewhere. Commented Feb 18, 2018 at 22:44
  • 6
    This is incorrect. The standard at SO is that affiliation with relevant technologies should be disclosed. It has already been deemed necessary, and the post need not be an "official company statement."
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 7:56
  • 1
    @usr2564301 My comment was not intended to answer the question. (I posted my own answer for that.) It was intended to explain and provide evidence of what's wrong with this answer.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 10:45
  • @jpmc26: ah so you did – I even upvoted it as it's a better answer than mine ;) (And I cannot downvote mine.) But I'll edit those links into my answer, as they reflect the official stance on signatures (regardless whether they are a disclosure or not).
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14
  • 1
    @usr2564301: I am happy to accept your answer, since it was popular. However, I also see you preferred jpmc26's answer to your own, so I'll accept that in preference if you like. What do you reckon?
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 28, 2018 at 12:16
  • 1
    @halfer: thanks for asking! jpmc26's initial sentence better describes what I felt than how I worded it: "You should never leave it alone when editing a post". Overall I think that's a more balanced response than mine.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 28, 2018 at 13:02
13

perhaps Stack Exchange could develop a special profile type to say that the account "posts on behalf of"?

In my opinion, no.

Stack Overflow should not become a support forum for every "$verbMinusLastE.io" startup who are providing X-as-a-Y for a year after which they disappear, leaving a ghost town on this very site. And that's exactly the kind of environment that officially supporting this is going to cater for.

If you have an on-topic question, then it doesn't matter who answers it. A signature is no proof of the claims in an answer. An answer making certain claims should contain references to sources backing up those claims, not a signature claiming "CTO of XYZ", as that doesn't add anything at all. It holds the same value as putting "Tested, it works!" in an answer - none.

If people want to advertise they're posting on a company's behalf, let them add that in their username. Microsoft employees do this by adding the suffix "-MSFT".

12
  • Thanks. While I'd support the feature request, I don't feel very strongly about it. One advantage it may have is that if it is deemed that a particular user's affiliation is no longer relevant, making it a profile feature means it can be turned off by user. If $verbMinusLastE.io disappears into the ether, and it was felt appropriate to remove the noise, it can be done. That's not the case with the various ways in which organisation sigs can be injected into answer content.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 10:15
  • This doesn't seem to be addressing the conflict-of-interest concerns at all. Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 19:05
  • @Nathan I don't see any evidence for conflict of interest, nor how adding a signature claiming someone works for a certain company solves that, so I'm indeed not addressing that. Should I?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:22
  • 1
    @CodeCaster: The example in the question says "In this case, it is helpful to know that the poster is from WhizzBang Cloud Ltd, because they're recommending upgrades for the company they work for." There's your CoI. The information was present in the signature in the example, so there's your solution-in-signature. So yes, per the question here, you should. Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:37
  • @Nathan I think "A signature is no proof of the claims in an answer. An answer making certain claims should contain references to sources backing up those claims" from my answer explains that pretty well. If someone recommends to upgrade to a newer version of a product because that product offers the required functionality, all you need is a link to a changelog or feature comparison, not a signature saying "trust me, I work here".
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:46
  • 4
    @CodeCaster: Um, the part you appear to be misunderstanding is that the useful role the signature plays in the example is not "trust me, I work here" at all. It's almost the opposite: "yes I know I might be a touch biased because I work here, but here's all my cards, laid on the table, so you know I'm not deliberately trying to mislead you". Or, in short, not "trust me because I work here" but "trust me despite my working here". That is what your answer does not address in the slightest. Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:53
  • 2
    @Nathan care to try a more constructive tone? I'm not deliberately ignoring that point or anything, all I'm saying is that signatures offer no proof whatsoever.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 10:15
  • 1
    @CodeCaster: Proof is irrelevant to what I'm talking about. When someone discloses their possible conflicts of interest, you don't ask them for proof that they do in fact have those conflicts. That would be ridiculous. ("I hold a short position in this stock that I'm trash-talking in this article." "Oh, do you? I doubt it! I bet you're holding long and are trying to lose money!") I'm not saying you're ignoring the point, but you're definitely missing it pretty hard, because nothing so far makes any sense with regard to the concept of conflict of interest. Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 10:27
  • @CodeCaster: Now, while it is of course helpful and generally necessary to give some cogent reasons why an answer recommends a course of action, it is naive to suppose that just because an answer gives a plausible-sounding set of reasons for recommending XYZ, therefore XYZ is in fact the best idea. It may be a good idea, but favor the answerer's company. It may sometimes be a good idea, but not as often as implied. It may not be a good idea in practice at all for subtle reasons the answerer leaves out. Answers on SO are not proven formally: they are just argued for persuasively. Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 10:31
  • @CodeCaster: Because of this lack of formal proof, there's a lot of wiggle-room for an unethical answerer to eke out extra profit from readers who don't check as thoroughly as they perhaps should. Same as blog posts about how to solve, say, certain ORM problems, or what kinds of WordPress plugins are good for a particular type of shop. There's no "proof" there, and can't be. Just opinion-tinged expert (or not-so-expert) advice based on experience (or half-baked guesswork and a lucrative affiliate deal). Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 10:36
  • @Nathan I'm really sorry but I fail to see your point and I'll leave my answer as-is. My view remains that stating you're involved with the product you're advising for holds very little value, but that it has to be done to let the reader assess any conflict of interest. But not in the form of a signature.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Feb 21, 2018 at 10:14
  • 2
    @CodeCaster The question is asking what to do when a required disclosure is in the form of a signature. Removing signatures is good, but just editing it out would leave the answer breaking the guidelines on disclosing conflicts. Your answer doesn't address what the editor should do.
    – mbrig
    Commented Feb 21, 2018 at 17:32
7

I’m strongly against signatures. If we were to allow signatures in answers, then we would in a way reward authority over content.

If there is for example a library author answering a library question, I would rather have them use their extensive knowledge of the library to provide a really good answer instead of relying on their authority to “win” the question.

Just because someone is extremely knowledgeable in a topic that does not mean that everything they say is actually helpful. It still takes effort to make something a good answer that should then be rewarded with upvotes.

For example, do we need to know that Eric Lippert was involved with the C# compiler development to see that his answers about C# internals are really good? No. It probably helps that he has a lot of inside knowledge, but he shows that by writing good answers.

Or does it matter that davidism is a Flask maintainer to make his answers more credible? Not really. He just spends a lot of time around the tag and makes sure that questions are appropriately answered (or closed).


We should strive on having good and useful answers, and not try to justify those answers by our position or involvement with something. If you can’t answer something properly, then just don’t. And if you can provide answers because of some involvement with something, then make that clear by making the answer good.

3
  • I appreciate the theme of this answer, which others have touched upon as well - the idea that organisational information in sigs is used or misused to try to carry extra weight. It did not occur to me they might have that effect, but I can see how answer authors might be subconsciously tempted to do that!
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:06
  • 1
    However, most times I see regards/project/name, it's merely from folks who aren't familiar with forum conventions. I think it's always been thought of as redundant to add this sort of thing, even in BBCode-style fora.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:08
  • 3
    I appreciate the shout-out, and I agree with the general idea of your answer. I would note however that I get a lot of questions of the nature "what was the design team thinking during the design of feature X?" In questions like that, I think it is perfectly reasonable to prioritize authority: current or former members of the design team can answer questions like that definitively. Given the choice between a poorly written but informed and correct answer over a persuasively written but uninformed and wrong guess, we should prefer the former. Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 22:13
-4

For the sake of giving an opposing view a chance, I will take the opposite side to usr2564301. I say this as a keen editor who normally jumps at the chance of excising signature blocks from posts, whilst tutting loudly and mumbling something about Eternal Septembers.

Either Leave or Convert To Inline Statement

As Martin Smith says in the comments, we have sometimes said in the past that a note about affiliations in a person's profile is not sufficient to excuse them from the need to be clear about when they are self-promoting. We are not against self-promotion itself, but we want readers to know when this is happening. It's also worth noting that the community is in favour of developer evangelists and company support personnel using the Stack Overflow platform to produce good quality help material.

usr2564301 is saying that an "inline" statement of affiliation is necessary only when making an official statement on behalf of a company. I'd rather we asked folks to make this clear in every post. We might argue that ordinary support answers are not "official company statements" per se, but I'd like to see some note anyway.

My preference is to replace signatures with an initial statement, thus:

I work as a support engineer for WhizzBang Cloud Ltd.

Yes, that configuration is possible. You'd need to upgrade to the WhizzBang instance with two extra Whistles. You can do so through the following YAML configuration:

That gets rid of the signature (and name/regards/etc) whilst maintaining a clear and succinct statement of affiliation. However, if an editor regards this as too onerous, I might stick my neck out and say that leaving an organisational signature is better than removing it on its own, since it unfairly exposes the author to the charge of undeclared self-promotion.

6
  • 2
    If SO developers added this as an additional field to the answer template, the wording and intention as well as rendering could be formalised so that all such statements are consistent. I don't view the profile of every poster, so it's not enough to leave it to the readers to discover this, but also because SO tries to enforce self declaration of affiliation to the subject matter. Many answers on SO are speculation or trial and error, but if a response from a key developer or team can be flagged in a way that we can easily identify and search for them then more publishers will get on board SO Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 2:16
  • 6
    I disagree with this because noting employer in every post clouds the issue of conflict-of-interests. By leaving it in when it's irrelevant, it becomes harder to spot when it is relevant. It becomes white noise.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 7:50
  • @jpmc26: I am wondering whether this information, if always presented, would necessarily be white noise in practice. For example, if affiliation was declared on an answer that did not require it, readers could still ask follow-up questions of a "support" nature in the comments. That is on-topic enough for me to be OK with, as it's just the comments, and they're ephemeral. Would that be a bad outcome?
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 8:39
  • 1
    @halfer Comments are not for support. Comments are for improvement or clarification of the post to which they are attached. Questions that don't fall into that category belong in either another question or not on SO at all.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 10:44
  • Indeed. See the original of my findYourSmizmar example for that wrong kind of interaction – it reads like a transcript of their help desk. We should close & delete that question anyway.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 11:18
  • Fair enough @jpmc26. I agree comments are not for support, but equally I think they are a "no-man's land" where I don't particular care about them. If the answer is good, and comments are support-ish, that doesn't changed the goodness of the answer, and the comments can be flagged by a future reader if they wish.
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 20, 2018 at 9:03

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .