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A late answer led me to this question which is looking for a technique for converting YouTube videos to MP3 and then downloading them.

  • Should questions like that, and the answers they attract, be allowed to stay open on Stack Overflow?
  • Should they be closed?
  • Should they be summarily deleted?

While YouTube's Terms of Service allow users to download content that they uploaded as well as some specific videos (via YouTube's own download link, if present), downloading of content is forbidden.

Stack Exchange Network Acceptable Use Policy includes:

Stack Exchange may not be used for illegal purposes.

In my opinion, that tells us that posts about downloading content from a specific service would be OK as long as it didn't violate IP rights or "surreptitiously expropriate" content.

  • How would I judge that?
  • Is such a judgement even relevant?

@Robert Harvey's answer to How do we handle questions that are potentially or blatantly illegal or malicious? appears to address this situation, although the question was more about hacking activities. To paraphrase:

A question about targeting a specific individual's or organization's data or website illegally should be closed.

  • What does the community think?

Full disclosure: Before posting this Q, I edited the late answer to remove a link provided as an example, which led to a site providing a YouTube piracy service. I also initiated close-voting on the question based on my interpretation of Stack Overflow's TOS, with this custom close reason:

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because question subject and content violate the StackOverflow Terms of Service sect 3 c) and/or e) by targeting a specific organization with intent to expropriate proprietary data.

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    This is a funny one, it somewhat depends upon the question, in the example you've provided which actively links to a script with the purpose of downloading YouTube videos (in one form or another), this without a doubt (in my mind) at least violates Sec 3e of the ToS and should be closed (as it has). If however the question simply asked how to, then the question (which should then likely be closed as TB) would not violate either of the two terms cited, but instead any answers would. Either way the result is the same, close the question. Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 13:28
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    We don't have to deal with YouTube's TOS. What they allow or disallow is none of our business. It is hard enough to get SO's TOS understood. I don't think a question about a YouTube downloader by it self is off-topic or is in violation of the SO TOS. Don't forget that a browser can also download content, going down this route would make all Selenium, JSoup/ Chromium questions not only off-topic but also in violation of the TOS. That doesn't feel right.
    – rene
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 13:41
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    There is a very significant difference between something being illegal and something being against some TOS (a contract, which itself might not be legally binding). Even if illegal, illegal in what jurisdiction? Frankly, in the US, I question the ability of YouTube to limit downloading video, per this 1984 US Supreme Court ruling, which explicitly found that recording video in order to time-shift it (watch it later) is considered "fair use". Thus, YouTube's copyright does not extend to the right to limit this.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 17:39
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    @rene [...] It is hard enough to get SO's TOS understood. ... what? :-) Out of all the texts written by the mankind, SE's legal are on of the most comprehensible and concise. (similar to what tldrlegal is trying to achieve)
    – Skipper
    Commented Jan 18, 2018 at 10:18
  • Com on, this question mentioned in your first sentence deserve the downvotes. Say, why not question like "How to hack NASA ?" or "How to steal people's identity ?" Commented Jan 18, 2018 at 15:02
  • Furthermore, it is posible that a user asking questions about downloading youtube videos has written aproval of youtube. IF we do not know the curcumstances we should not judge Commented Jan 19, 2018 at 12:32
  • @Makyen Wasn't there a specific court case against YouTubetoMP3 or what not?
    – Rob Rose
    Commented Jan 20, 2018 at 3:14

2 Answers 2

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I can't speak for the site as a whole, but I can comment on how I handle flags on questions like this. We regularly are flagged about questions that ask about scraping content from other sites, downloading YouTube videos, etc. I generally decline such flags with the reason

It is not up to Stack Overflow moderators to enforce the terms and conditions of another site.

We can't be certain what is and is not against someone else's Terms of Service, particularly since many change regularly.

This is roughly the same for how I handle questions flagged for violations of ongoing programming competitions, those flagged as violating a school's honor code, or ones about technologies under NDA.

If the question isn't a viable, on-topic programming question, I may close it and / or downvote it for its technical problems, but I don't feel qualified to weigh in on external Terms of Service violations.

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  • Maybe the other parties' TOS confuses things... Let's set that aside for a moment. StackOverflow's TOS says that posted content won't contain computer programming routines intended to expropriate data. That doesn't require any interpretation outside our little box. We can follow @Rene's slippery slope argument on that, but it is in writing.
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 16:07
  • Note, too... this question didn't ask about flagging to moderators.
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 16:09
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    @Mogsdad - The way I read that is it allows SE to take action against users who infringe upon someone's copyright or write something that potentially causes harm somewhere, not that this requires the site and its users to act on something. Whether something should be acted on seems like more of a decision by the community than a policy dictated to us by Stack Overflow's Terms of Service. The TOS gives the site cover when something is acted on.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 16:14
  • And once again I'm accused of slippery slope argumentation ... ?
    – rene
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 16:28
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    You know I love you, @rene... no accusation, just acknowledgement!
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 16:43
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    @Mogsdad like most legalspeak in consumer contacts, the terms of service, read literally, are ludicrously broad in what they forbid, banning routines for pretty much any whitehat security or privacy purpose along with blackhat ones. An anti-virus is by definition meant to 'detrimentally interfere with' viruses; anonymising data sets intentionally 'damages' 'information'; by the wording of the ToS, posting code meant for either purpose is forbidden. Unless we want to go around censoring everyone who posts code that hashes passwords, we need to accept that the ToS, like all ToS, are bullshit.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 18, 2018 at 10:33
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What Brad said is absolutely correct. While Stack Overflow is moderated by the community, sometimes the only course available for folks to take is to escalate stuff to us via the community team directly. When it comes to possible infringements of our terms of service, it's really up to us to make the interpretation and (possibly) attempt to enforce it.

With that said, there's nothing in the ToS that prohibits people from asking questions about problems that they're attempting to solve with software, and attempting to draw a distinction between 'bad' and 'good' there is more likely way more dangerous than the shadiest of questions ever asked on the site. If programmers can't talk about how poorly guarded buffers might be exploited, then the software currently eating this world would reek of Swiss cheese. It's hard to come up with language to stop folks from over thinking what one might potentially do with an answer to a question.

And finally, with all of that said, the truly smelly and shady sorts of questions that smell as if they might be up to real shenanigans are generally asked in a way that makes them off-topic for a plethora of other reasons, so they really don't tend to stick around.

Much like questions that might conceivably violate a third-party NDA, we really can't enforce other people's rules. But, those that tend to seek knowledge to do actual harm tend to be so awful that they're quickly disposed of for much simpler reasons. If it looks like something is as evil as it is exceptional in that regard, flag it or just contact us directly, and we'll deal with it.

Or, in short, any time you suspect it's time for us to break out the ToS in the course of moderation, get in touch with us (either directly, or through a moderator).

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