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It's been a rough time for our chatroom for the last few weeks. We tried our best to stop it, but at the end it was not sufficient to keep the room alive.

But after discussing with Jon and my fellow ROs, we came up with some ideas which we want to implement.

First thing first: we will make the room gallery so that we will always have control over users and we can revoke access at any given time if a user is causing problems.

Second thing, we have a listed of some users who have are responsible of most of these problems. We'll keep them banned forever so that they can cause no further trouble..

It's not like what we went through this the first time. Once our room got frozen because there were more non-English speaking users than English-speaking ones. But we managed to restrict users to stop using other languages but English.

We just want one chance, and I am sure this time again it'll work out.

Please support!!

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  • 6
    We just want one chance ... you want yet another chance ... right?
    – rene
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 14:34
  • 3
    What might help is if you'd link to that discussion you had with Jon. The room was locked merely 2 hours ago. We'd love to see what you guys came up with to prevent that from happening again.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 14:50
  • 3
    i believe access of people who found guilty should be taken instead of shutting down a "living" room Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 14:53
  • 8
    @Killer: It's the responsibility of the room owners to keep the room clean. If the room owners can't or won't do that, the room is subject to closure. Apparently, that was the case. A chat room never gets closed just because of one or two users.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 14:54
  • 5
    @cerbrus I asked the ROs to raise their case here... What I said to them was in a private chat.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 14:58
  • 7
    I want to see a clear case of room moderation going on and plans to do so in future.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 15:01
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    @TheLittleNaruto please provide it as a collaborative answer from you and the rest of the RO team...
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 15:40
  • 2
    @JonClements Yes, this is from all RO's of "Android Era with Kotlin and Java". Making room Gallery will help us banning toxic users from the chat. Personally, due to some circumstances, I was not able to come online much from few weeks, but I will be active from now on. Strict actions will be taken for guilty users, and we will keep the chat clean.
    – berserk
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 15:59
  • 15
    Frankly, you're going to have to do a lot to convince me that this room should be reopened. In the last two weeks, we had to act on a user there who was posting disgusting racist and homophobic slurs, as well as multiple users posting pornographic content. As described in this transcript, I almost deleted your chatroom on the first incident, because not only were many of these slurs not flagged, it seemed like members of this room were encouraging this behavior. The porn posts came after that.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 16:17
  • 4
    @BradLarson: What prevents these folks from simply starting a new chat room, perhaps called "Kotlin?" What prevents the bad actors from re-appearing again? Is this a systemic problem of chat?
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 16:41
  • 17
    @RobertHarvey - We can ban the problem users from chat (as was done, and we also deleted sock puppets that were then created to evade these bans), but the larger problem was that the room was seemingly fostering this behavior by not moderating it themselves. When I find that slurs were sitting there unflagged for months, and see other members seemingly supporting this behavior, I begin to question the culture of the room.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 16:50
  • 3
    @BradLarson This is not our culture in the room. We always try our best to help the users with their queries (which is the very first purpose of the room). I agree we got lenient on some users, which we want to fix. Also some ROs (including me) were busy on their schedule, so were not able to be here most of the time. But we want to fix that by adding more active and strong ROs. This room is there for many years, and many people come there with their queries. We don't want to lose it, and we will do our very best to prevent such issues in future.
    – berserk
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 17:23
  • 9
    @AshuKumar: Blindly re-opening the room with empty promises of "we'll be good this time"? That's not going to happen. "community always gives one more chance" You forget that they've had their second chance already. The room was locked before.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 5:32
  • 3
    you are right, i know no body can gonna do open closed room, what i just want to please discuss with RO and tell them what else they should do to prevent future problem. RO came with ideas if their ideas are nor good at all or need some improvement than why not u guys help RO, Just talk with RO and improvement their work, this is how community WORK. leaving someone in the middle of sea when they found their guilty will not gonna make SE good at all
    – Ashu Kumar
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 5:39
  • 5
    @AshuKumar It's pretty obvious at this point that the room will not be unfrozen. It's time to move on.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Nov 8, 2017 at 13:25

3 Answers 3

36

Let me offer some well meant advice. Some of the regulars sought refuge in a room on MSE where I happen to be a Room Owner; I share some observations but I admit I'm also biased because my attempt to steer that crowd a bit didn't land, at least not how I imagined.

It takes two to tango. It is an understandable response to be defensive when you feel how you are treated is not justified. However, it really helps, as a group and as individuals, if you become more self-reflective. That is, try to envision how you, as a person, contributed to the issues the room is facing.

Based on my limited interaction with some of the regulars I find it hard to decipher if they are genuinely trying to make the best out of the room or just don't care about the (or any) room or its rules at all. That might lead to all kind of misinterpretations, speculation and jokes lost in translation. Keep in mind that it is difficult to communicate, that requires a common language, sensitivity, an open mind, the will to really listen and trying to understand what the other party's message is. Yes, also from me. And that is hard to stick to, especially when things get heated.

There is a common misconception that chat rooms on the SE network are a safe harbor and exempt from any rules except the ones embraced by its regulars. Again, I'm not 100% sure if that idea lived among your regulars but based on some messages in the transcripts it is possible that outsiders interpreted it this way. The regulars have to decide what they want their room to be. If the outcome is: anything should be allowed then reconsider if running this room on SE servers and within the SE policies ("be nice") is the right thing to do.

As a group embrace Toward a philosophy of Chat and live up that. Make sure to leverage all options in A guide to moderating chat, keeping in mind that those options are not limited to the RO's. Everyone can moderate, given that everyone is open for being moderated.

Make sure you have a set of rules that are clear and enforceable. We had rules in SOCVR that were impossible to explain, impossible to verify, and therefore impossible to act on and if you did you were probably screwed as an RO. Rules needs to be changed/tuned/removed/updated over time and regularly. Have an insane set of rules so it becomes easy to refer to that instead relying on users' selective and failing memory.

Be open and transparent about how and when you moderate to enforce your rules. Explain why you take or refuse to take actions. That has value for everyone involved to better understand the reasoning behind certain measures. One important thing I learned over time is the SOCVR's agree to disagree rule. You can't possibly keep everyone happy all the time. But at least being clear about things you disagree on makes sure no one should feel left out or disrespected.

Finally

I'm by no means a model room owner or pretend to perfectly understand (room)culture and all the social and inter personal dynamics that are at play here. Nor do I fully grasp SE policy and mod policies and I certainly miss context. Nor do I pretend to tell you how y'll should live your online life or how to behave in and run your room. I'm just offering my biased observations, well meant but probably useless advice and maybe some food for thought.

I said this before in some room:

There is a thin line somewhere, stay at the right side.

Go paint that line. Together. Have fun.

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  • 1
    Thank you for your great answer. in total I agree with out especially the point with the happiness, we need to make a cut for a better together. Regarding rules we need to keep them as simple as possible and we need to be agile to change them if required. We also need to make it to our philosophy, that everyone can moderate if you are a RO or not.
    – rekire
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 18:20
  • 8
    Have an insane set of rules... Did you really mean "insanely good?" I'm not sure I agree with a policy of constantly changing the rules. Chatrooms are not rocket science; some common sense (coupled with a degree of flexibility and fairness) really ought to be enough.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 15:03
  • @RobertHarvey No, I didn't mean insanely good, the choice of the word insane is correct IMO. I feel we have a lot of rules that I would call common sense or covered by the be nice policy while we still list them in our FAQ and they are stable but not cast in stone. But in practice we do what you suggest. Maybe not rocket science, but I find it hard to write down a good policy. The insane rules are also a running joke ... after all you need to have some fun in your free time ...
    – rene
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 18:34
4

Here's another "Keep it closed" vote.

Aside from the issues / concerns raised in Zoe and rene's answers, I have another concern:

The room owners of that room don't learn from a moderator's intervention.
Sure, they may behave for a couple of weeks, but so far, there has been no indication they even understand what the problem is, much less what they intend to do about it (and how).

In fact, they already created a new room to replace the locked one.
They even explicitly state the intent to re-create the room in case it stays locked:

I do think the same they are not going to open that again
but at least they should tell us
so that we can create another room
(source) (Emphasis mine)

That's basically ban evasion...
At time of writing, 2/3 of the ROs in that new room are RO in the old one.


Furthermore, as you can see I've been quite active in here trying to point them in the right direction. Time and time again have I suggested ways to improve, but they actively refuse to take advice.

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  • 1
    Dude that room hasn't created by any ROs but a regular user. The problem with you is you just bring up proofs which is completely not related. For example in earlier comments you had told about giving us a third chance while it's just second time. I can list down your all false proofs.
    – anon
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:13
  • @TheLittleNaruto: 2 out of 3 ROs in that new room are RO in the locked room...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:15
  • Again consider doing a good RnD
    – anon
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:16
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    @rekire: If I'd get my account banned here, I would get in trouble for creating a "temporary" account. How is the room different?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:22
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    @Cerbrus Read this: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/39650145#39650145
    – anon
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:22
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    In the interest of full transparency, I still think this is a relevant "chain of events". Also, @rekire, stop editing my answer.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:26
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    "and has got nothing to do with the room we are talking about in this question". Sure. It just happens to have a similar name, users, and the subject in there is the closed room...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:28
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    A cat named "dog" is still a cat. Renaming it doesn't change anything.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:37
  • 4
    @Cerbrus so if I would join a room related to Apple Development and I will become randomly RO this would be the same for you right? I guess your answer will be yes, that is ridiculous.
    – rekire
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:46
  • 2
    Eh, no, that's not what I'm saying. If you'd then change the subject of that room to Android / Kotlin, then yes, that'd be the same. Note that a room's "subject' and "title" aren't the same thing.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 7:47
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    @Cerbrus StackOverflow is a free and a managed Community by people who tries to teach & learn the programming languages and etc. I’m not agree with the part which you said we should get permission to create a chatroom or etc. Also, What’s your problem with that room? Do you know how much time we spent to keep it alive? Another point: The new created room is not the same and people are free to create rooms. Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 9:18
  • 4
    ^ Case in point about deflecting. I don't have a personal problem with the room, but as I stated before, it's basically ban evasion. Time spent keeping it alive? More like time spent not moderating. Not the same? I've already answered that a few times.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 9:20
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    when i will be free, i will give good answer of ur points those u mentioned in your answer. @Cerbrus
    – Ashu Kumar
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 5:13
  • 1
    i was busy with work & forgot this. Here u go In fact, they already created a new room to replace the locked one.=> Please check who created room if u r able to. I do think the same they are not going to open that again => RO Wrote on of the point, It is one of main thought(s). if u considered this as point than u might not be ever say u can not do that work & suddenly u r able to or did that work. At time of writing, 2/3 of the ROs in that new room are RO in the old one. => Please copy and paste all message FROM THAT ROOM WHICH IS SAID BY RO NOT JUST PIECE OF STATEMENT OF WHOLE CHAT
    – Ashu Kumar
    Commented Oct 26, 2017 at 5:04
  • 5
    ... That's barely even English. Sorry, but I really can't make heads or tails of that comment.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 26, 2017 at 10:42
-17

We really want to keep the room alive. For that reason, we will do whatever we can. We have been managing this chat room for a long time, and we have a good team who is always ready to help. This chat-room influenced lots of users for more than three years. Based on a few weeks analysis, please don't shut down this chat-room! Our room has existed since 2012-11-06 with altogether 2969 visitors.

What we have planned to do:

  1. We will focus more on moderating chat by letting a window with chat be open on a second screen when we are on a computer. So we will see faster what is going on. E.g. rekire mostly reacted on pings, however in critical moments no pings were raised. So we need to sensibilise our users to inform us so that we can kick those users faster. Flagging should be done too. We see that handling that ourselves didn't work well.

  2. Like we already mentioned in the question, the very first thing we will do is to make room gallery so that we can restrict unwanted users to post anything in chat.

  3. Also we will try to keep the chat flow mostly on-topic. Cat content and context-less memes are at least temporally forbidden. Casual chats are fine as long as everyone follows the rule be nice. Homophobic and sexual content won't be tolerated and continuously flagged and the user will be kicked. As we all know the first strike won't take long, but it should be enough to raise the attention of the corresponding user. That we will also take care of.

  4. We will always use timeouts to make clear statements if something goes out of our hand. Since we have already some focus by our moderating team we will be able to use future steps.

We are hoping that will make our room great again. Yes, we can!

Just some stats to see that there is not everything bad, here are some statistics for some interesting keywords:

  • thank 1844
  • thanks 7336
  • good morning 7615
  • gm 5152
  • welcome 1850
  • Links to answers or questions 9569

You can use the search to confirm these statistics. That means that every visitor on average said "thank you" 3.3 times. You should think about it.

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  • 3
    1 & 3: how? 4: What else can you do before using mod flags? I think you can improve your plan by updating this answer a bit.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 15:59
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    The key point here is "1" - you haven't in the past - and that remains my concern. It's frustrating that someone has to point out to you that it's necessary to do so... (and not just once)
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 16:14
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    I have a question about point 2. Was it room regulars that were causing the problem or new people? If it is regulars then that is a culture problem gallery mod doesn't really fix that (except you can perma-ban someone). If the culture needs to be fixed you need strong RO's that will speak up when the line is crossed and not afraid to kick people to reinforce the point that bad behavior is not tolerated. Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 16:41
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    Those stats that were added are fine, but meaningless in the context of moderating a chat room. How old a room is and how many visitors it got is completely irrelevant. The other counts at the bottom of the answer say nothing about the context of those words. What matters here is how you guys plan to moderate the room. Padding this answer with stats to make the room “look good” really won’t have the effect you may want it to have.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 12, 2017 at 19:27
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    In my 15-odd years of participating in online forums and chat rooms, this is the first time someone has tried to provide those stats to justify their chat room not being so cancerous. "Look, we greet and thank each other all the time, that means our room is well-moderated!" Please, toxic people greet and thank each other all the time too.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 2:23
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    the bad room management has been going on for a long time, it isn't something you can just turn over with the same base of ROs. They can try but it will inevitably fail. While they say they'll turn things around, the chances are very low for them to actually do it. They haven't in the past and they only think they need to change when the room is frozen? the room was frozen in the first place with good reason, the ROs can't moderate it. And if they can't now, why would they be able to in the future? Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 6:05
  • 4
    reopening the room would once again make the room susceptible to the same things that got it closed in the first place. If they manage to fix that during the first weeks of the room, there's no guarantee they'll keep the moderation efforts up Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 6:36
  • 4
    They have already had a second chance; it's happened before. Why should they get a third chance for basically poor moderation? They didn't fix it last time, what makes you think now will be different? Things repeat themselves because things like this rarely change Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 6:43
  • 5
    "Everybody deserves a second chance." Yes, (almost) everybody does. However, to be given a third chance, isn't that common. Since the room has already shown to be unable to keep made promises and the room has already shown to be unable to moderate itself. This is why promises like "we'll be better" aren't enough. This is why they want a plan. Excuses like "bots make mistakes" and "we've been thanked a lot" only weaken your plan.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 6:56
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    @rekire: The room has been frozen before. Calling me a troll means you're clearly missing the point of my messages. I'm trying to explain why this answer isn't enough. I'm trying to make you guys understand what's wrong. But if you don't want my help, that's fine. Just don't call me a troll, that's silly.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 7:07
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    I agree with Cerbrus, especially when you failed on moderation once before. Not keeping the language in english was poor moderation on your end. Now is a different top-level problem but it all has a root in poor moderation. @AshuKumar the room has gotten its second chance already, now its frozen again for the essentially same root reason (poor moderation). There has to be huge changes for the room to be reopened, and even then there's the problem of following up on it Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 7:42
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    Guys, if anything, this calling out other users shows why the room should remain closed. This answer is supposed to be a plan to improve. You're setting a very bad example, here.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 9:37
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    @rekire: The problem isn't gifs. The problem is moderation. The fact that you insist on calling out a single user in a post meant to show us you guys are capable of being better shows that you are not.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 10:53
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    As a room owner, you should just move those to a trash room. Those gifs don't stop you from moderating, they are your responsibility to clean up, as room owner.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 10:56
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    @MukeshRana The "focussing more on keeping the room freezed" is because people are utterly inconvinced that you guys are capable of changing. And as is, from what I've read this room gives all of chat.SO a bad name.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 13, 2017 at 12:19

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