22

I ask this in a similar spirit as

but from the point of view of users that could actually moderate posts, but don't, because of ignorance, refusal, laziness, whatever.

I came across this question:

The OP has plugged some code and said it doesn't behave the way they want it to. The post itself lacks inputs and outputs (which are very relevant). It lacks a reasoning for the expectations. And it lacks an MCVE (as it stands, with standard assumptions, it's not reproducible).

Some information was added an hour later in the comments, pointing to a typo, but describes a separate scenario.

This is not a good question. It lacks an MCVE, it's unclear, it's not reproducible, it's likely a typo, and likely a duplicate (either of the typo or of something like this). Yet, it's received no closure votes and two upvotes (the single downvote is mine).

Of the 55 views on the question, at least 4 (plus me) were from users with enough moderation privileges (3k+) to close the question. These users in particular are relatively active and have contributed much to the site. They therefore should know what privileges they have access to and when they apply. But, in this case, they chose not to use them.

I'd like to discuss why they (and the other 50) didn't use their privileges.

  • Had they run out of votes?
  • Did they not care?
  • Did they not know they could?
  • Did they not want to make an effort to look for duplicates?
  • Did they consider the question on topic?
  • Did they consider the question good?
  • Did they feel bad for the OP?
  • Did they want to save their votes until after it was obvious what the problem was? (In which case, what's the point of even having the MCVE close reason?)

At first, I didn't vote because I don't like wasting my MCVE vote unless I'm relatively certain others will vote with me (with SOCVR chat room, for example). It usually ends up being a duplicate/typo, but I can't withdraw that vote and hammer it closed if the MCVE is provided in the meantime. Later, I wanted to see what the rest of StackOverflow would do.

23
  • 26
    Please don't answer with people can vote any way they want. Yeah, sure, ok, but if you want to make the site better, you should train your users to behave in a certain way. With some positive re-enforcement, perhaps. It's been suggested a couple of times to reward closure with reputation. Maybe we should revisit. Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 18:19
  • 3
    There's a load of reasons why I might interact with a question, but not vote on it. I might feel I should provide an explanation along with the close vote because the OP is acting in good faith, or provide help getting the question into shape. (both often involve follow-up conversation.) I might be unsure whether a question deserves closure, and too lazy to think about it & read the rules. Very often, I don't feel like looking up a duplicate; if SO, Inc. can't be bothered to build a better dupe-closing system, why should I be bothered to use the existing one when I don't feel like it?
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 18:45
  • 68
    So, you're complaining that others don't use their moderation powers, then say you didn't use yours because you didn't want to "waste" yours and because you don't want to lose your ability to dupe hammer. But you also don't want to search for the dupe, nor vote to close. Is it perhaps possible that others were thinking the same as you? Everyone is waiting for someone else to cast the first vote? Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 18:48
  • 1
    @Mike As I explained, I already had dupes waiting, but wanted confirmation from an mcve. Maybe that's what those users were waiting for (in my experience with these in particular, that's unlikely). Is that something you would do? (I also didn't do anything because I wanted to see how unresponsive users are in some cases.) Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 18:51
  • 5
    I wouldn't do anything with that question because I don't know Java. But if it lacks a MCVE, I vote to close it with that close reason. If I know enough of what the OP is talking about to be 95% sure, I'll VtC as a dupe. It's not like others can't reopen a question if it's not a dupe, or if the OP eventually adds a MCVE. Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 19:00
  • 2
    @Mike These users do know Java. And the question does lack an MCVE, and all those other things I mentioned. Great, you would've voted to close. Thank you. Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 19:21
  • 8
    On rewarding closure with reputation: I really don't think this should be done. Yes, my reputation would probably go through the roof, given how many times I currently vote to close, even if I only got +1 for every closure. But I believe the reputation should be more of a reflection of actual knowledge and the fact that you have asked good questions or provided good answers in the past, instead of just showing that you're able to identify a clearly horrible question and click twice to close.
    – Keiwan
    Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 20:30
  • 1
    Probably because Tim Post lost his keys.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 20:33
  • 7
    @travisj I would accept that if they HAD voted. But also, god damn, that meme is getting old. Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 20:41
  • 3
    @TravisJ Which views? The other 50? I ask about the users with privileges. You can always assume that all 50 of those were from Google and ignore the question, but that's highly unlikely, and I don't care about them at the moment. Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 22:59
  • 2
    I wonder if there's any way we could get some stats around how many views are users with 3k+ reputation and are able to vote to close? And do tags affect those averages?
    – DavidG
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 13:13
  • 1
    "at least 4 (plus me) were from users with enough moderation privileges (3k+) to close the question" I was confused how you could possibly know this until I checked the comments on the question ;)
    – Keith Hall
    Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 14:13
  • 2
    @TylerH I tried to make that clear, at least for the 4. One is a java gold badge, the other three have silvers and are daily active users. I've seen all four answer/comment/act on similar questions. Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 15:16
  • 1
    @CarrieKendall That's essentially what I'm asking, yes. I'm being sarcastic with those terms. Users that are so active know very well what the help center guidance is for poor questions. I'm trying to illustrate that these users need a bigger push towards using those privileges. Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 16:21
  • 2
    @SotiriosDelimanolis I wouldn't be so quick to assume that. I didn't moderate for a while at all for much different reasons. Maybe, refusal crudely applies but it also alienates users like me from engaging. Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 17:24

2 Answers 2

60

Naturally, no one knows for sure unless those 4-ish users see this Meta question and feel compelled to respond. But I can think of one reason why they didn't. So can you:

At first, I didn't vote because I don't like wasting my MCVE vote unless I'm relatively certain others will vote with me … [Also,] I wanted to see what the rest of StackOverflow would do.

I would phrase it a bit differently, but it's essentially the same idea:

Users with moderation privileges often abstain from exercising them because it feels like a Sisyphean fight. I could vote to close as "unclear" or "lacks an MCVE", but that would only be one vote out of the required 5. Experience tells me that my vote is likely to be wasted, and the question won't be closed. Apathy sets in, and, most of the time, I stop using my votes at all. Why fight a battle that can't be won, and just ends up wasting my time, energy, and good cheer? At most, I downvote and navigate away from the page, hoping I'll find a better question—a better way to spend my time—and trying not to dwell on this crappy question any longer than necessary.

(This doesn't necessarily apply to me. I use my votes to the maximum extent possible, even though I am often disappointed by the lack of a real impact that they seem to have. I will even leave comments advising on ways and entreating people to fix their questions. In other words, I tend to keep banging my head against the wall. I'm not sure if that says more good things or more bad things about me.)

This kind of fatigue is especially common with users who, as you note, "are relatively active and have contributed much to the site." They do "know what privileges they have access to and when they apply", but they choose not to use them because, as the saying goes, they've hunted this dog before. They know what to expect, and the apathy has already begun to set in.

Now, these users are, in general, not the Meta crowd, so I expect this answer will be fairly unpopular. (It is not a coincidence that Meta regulars are the ones responsible for the question now being closed.) It'll be nice if I can manage to avoid getting a bunch of comments lambasting and critiquing the behavior I describe here. Such criticisms miss the point. This is very much in line with normal, expected human behavior, and you aren't going to stop it by shaming these people. That'll just make them more apathetic—and possibly piss them off.

Alas, I do not believe that all hope is lost. I know of one way to fix this, and that is to give real teeth to these users' privileges. A question that is utterly unclear, lacks any sort of relevant code, completely omits a description of the expected/required/observed behavior, or simply cannot be reproduced is obvious. Closing it shouldn't require a quorum, and it certainly shouldn't require a unanimous decision from all affected parties. Trusted users who have demonstrated expert-level knowledge for a particular technology should be able to single-handedly close such questions, without muss, without fuss, and without wasting 4 other people's time. Such domain expertise and experience with our site rules can be demonstrated by amassing enough reputation in a particular tag to earn a gold badge. We already give these people the ability to instantly close questions as duplicates, and deciding whether something is a duplicate is honestly a lot more difficult than determining whether it has one of the above-listed problems.

You hold a gold tag badge in . You instantly recognized the problems with this question. You should have immediately been able to take care of it. The fact that you couldn't means that the system is failing, not the users.

Frankly, I'm not very motivated to go looking for a duplicate that I can use to close a crappy question. The amount of effort I'm willing to put into dealing with a question is—rightly or wrongly—commensurate with the amount of time and effort it seems like the asker put into it. If you can't be arsed to ask a decent question, then why should I put forth the enormous amount of effort to find a duplicate—and especially for no reward? It's been proposed before to incentivize the finding of duplicates, and although I wouldn't be thoroughly opposed to that, I don't think it's necessarily the fix to this problem. The onus shouldn't be on trusted users to find a duplicate if they want to close an incomplete, unanswerable question. They should be able to do it directly. Besides, you can't even tell for sure if the question is actually a duplicate when it lacks critical details.

22
  • 3
    My only problem with this answer is "unpopular opinion". I think this opinion is fairly popular.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:21
  • 5
    I don't think laying on gold badge holders any more is a good idea. There's few enough of them as is. Also: Single vote closure/reopen just means gold badge holders who don't care a lick about moderation can just reopen a bad question to answer it and then reclose them. (I'd actually argue that the percentage of gold badge holders who have no interest and no desire to moderate at all is higher then among other, regular 3k+ users. After all, you need a hell of a lot of time to get a gold badge, and people actively moderating tend to take longer to produce that time.)
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:21
  • 4
    We could create ONE single question/answer pair on main that is used by all gold badge holders to close crappy questions against. I realize that target dupe is very meta but if that is all what is needed for gold badge holder to wield their hammer, I can live with that ... and the community doesn't have to wait for 6 to 8 weeks before privileges are extended.
    – rene
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:21
  • 2
    @rene I'm pretty sure that target would get deleted and people would be suspended for abusing the hammer for something it's not currently intended (non dupes)
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:23
  • 7
    Let's tell the mods the community has come to a different conclusion. Policy is made on meta not by mods.
    – rene
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:24
  • 3
    @rene Good luck getting the support and not have a CM come in and shut it all down real soon though. (Seriously though, I'd like to see this somewhat, because the collateral would probably be lower then the usefulness.)
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:25
  • 6
    related: Is using reputation to scale the number of close votes the best way? 9 bounties from 7 users and pretty negligible chance of anything being done by SE team in this direction - no wonder that apathy sets in
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:37
  • 3
    @gnat realisticly speaking, hell is liable to freeze over before anything changes in closing stuff from SE's side. The SE quality project was ... how long ago?
    – Magisch
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:43
  • 9
    @Magisch forget the SE quality while they have so much more important things to do on their plate, like banning terms that can make Julia Roberts unhappy
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 8:47
  • 3
    I agree with everything said in this answer, but I think the solution is a different one, namely to prevent the crap from entering the site in the first place. This can be achieved by changing the first post review queue so that it all questions posted by users below a certain reputation ends up there before the post is allowed to reach the main site. When the user reach a certain amount of rep, they will gain a "trusted user" privilege - they can post on the site without going through review. A privilege that can be removed if they repeatedly get their questions closed.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 12:43
  • 1
    Sadly, this will never happen because the meta crowd is far too fond of shovelling crap through twenty different review queues, and strongly believe that all crap must be refined, preserved and put on a pedestal.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 25, 2017 at 12:46
  • 3
    @Magisch Ideally, the site would first spank around the poster a bit before their question is passed to the review queue, auto-rejecting obvious things. But imagine this scenario with the current system: inane newbie posts a crap question for the first time. 1 first post review required. The question then ends up in triage queue, 5 reviews. The consensus is that the question is of low quality. Moved to low quality queue. 5 more reviews. During all these reviews, other users have started to close vote, 5 reviews. This question required 16 people to review it before it was deleted from the site.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 14:25
  • 2
    Summary: the current system already requires considerable review effort.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 14:27
  • 2
    Perhaps maybe once you hold 2k score in a tag (and have a gold badge, aka 200+ answers) you can Mjolnir questions for the 'No MCVE', 'Unclear', and 'Too Broad' reasons... where is one of those many Mjolnir-expansion questions when you need one...
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 14:37
  • 3
    @Magisch We're not talking about "laying on gold badge users." We're talking about enabling them to do what it is they already desperately wish they could.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 4:46
20

I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here to try and throw another perspective at this:


Why does there have to be an active reason for people not using moderation privileges?

Just because we have these privileges doesn't mean we have to use them, it just means we are trusted enough to do so - if we wish to do so.

We are (mostly) all volunteers, many of which probably didn't come here to moderate or maintain a site - but to simply ask or answer questions and nothing more - and that's okay.

In a lot of cases where I haven't acted on a bad question, it's not because I looked at it and made a conscious choice to deliberately not do anything with it - it's simply because that's not what I came to do, I never gave it a second thought - I just left and went on about my daily existence.

I think it's important to remember that high rep doesn't automatically mean that we have to use the tools available to us, it's just a bonus if we choose to do so.

5
  • 6
    "With great power comes great ... wait, what? I'm just a volunteer friendly neighborhood Spider-man!"
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 16:51
  • 2
    friendly neighborhood Macro Man* Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 17:07
  • 2
    friendly over-the-internet Macro Man*
    – user6516765
    Commented Jan 26, 2017 at 17:14
  • 1
    I'm not really sure that this answer is another perspective as it's already covered in the question with "Did they not care?" and "Did they not want to make an effort to look for duplicates?". Though you are right that people don't have to use their privileges, I think the intended desire of OP was to understand why this is the case.
    – DavidG
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 14:17
  • 2
    @DavidG Yeah it's a hard one to explain, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that either there is an active reason for not doing so - and if there is then that's perfectly okay - or there simply isn't a reason, in which case the question is irrelevant as there is no answer. It's a hard question to tackle, I've just had a go at it the best way I can Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 14:28

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .