-16

Basically: don't allow a single user to re-open a question that has been closed by multiple users.

I've seen it a couple of times (recent example):

  • A question gets closed as duplicate without a gold badge owner's participation. (There's 5 votes on the closure)
  • A gold badge owner comes in and single-handedly re-opens a question that was close-voted by 5 users.

Why is this even possible? Why can a single user overrule the "judgement" of 5 other users?
Is the vote of those 5 users worth that little? In my opinion, it makes no sense for a single user to be able to override a majority like that. Regardless of what badges that user has.


Rant aside, I request a modification to the gold badge voting privileges.
Two possible options are:

  1. If the question has been closed by more than one user, count a gold-badge owner's vote as a single, ordinary vote.
  2. If the question has been closed by more than one user, but the binding vote was a gold badge, make the re-open vote weigh equally heavy as the binding vote.
    For example:
    • 2 "normal" users close-vote a question, then it gets hammered by a gold badge holder.
    • A gold badge holder reopen-votes the question. Since the binding close vote filled in the last 3 required votes, this gold badge re-open vote counts for 3 "normal" votes.

My personal preference goes out to option 2. That way, gold badge re-open votes never outweigh the "most significant" close-vote.
A question that was closed by 3 users can be re-opened by 2 gold badge owners, or 1 gold badge owners and 2 "ordinary" users.

I realize this is limiting what users with a gold badge are allowed to do, a bit. However, I feel a gold badge owner should have the self-restraint not to re-open a question when there's a clear cause to keep the question closed, as indicated by a majority of close-votes.

Since this isn't always the case, as shown in the linked example, maybe it's better to restrict the functionality a little.

Disclaimer: I am a gold badge owner for on SO and one of 12 owners of on meta. I know this removes some power.
If you disagree, please consider leaving a comment.

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  • 11
    "Why can a single user overrule the "judgement" of 5 other users?" Because they're sons of Odin! Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:46
  • 5
    What would happen if a question is reopened by 5 users (from too broad or wrong duplicate) and a gold badge holder wants to hammer now again but to a good dupe?
    – Tunaki
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:46
  • @Tunaki: I didn't consider that yet. We may want a similar system. This would mean that the first closure determines the weight of all following gold-badge re-open / close votes.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:47
  • Re votes: Whoop, someone's touchy of people messing with their power ;-) (<-- joke)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:48
  • 1
    I think this would do more harm than good. This seems to be an edge-case and I can see a few cases where this would be quite frustrating if this gets implemented.
    – Rizier123
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:51
  • @Cerbrus "someone's touchy of people messing with their power " Don't touch my hammer, yes! Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:52
  • @Rizier123: Examples are welcome. Mjölnir is great for quickly closing obvious dupes. However, if a question is closed with 5 votes, why should a single user be able to undo that?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:52
  • 1
    @Cerbrus One was already covered by Tunaki. An old question which got closed and reopened can't be dupe hammered anymore. Another one would be that a question which got closed by auto-reviewers or some other wrong reason can't be reopened with one vote anymore. Or if you have a better dupe for a question and it was closed by a normal user and a hammer you can't reopen -> close it anymore with the hammer. So this takes away a lot of power from the hammer and we already don't have many powerful tools to moderate SO.
    – Rizier123
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:57
  • @Rizier123: Then maybe this restriction should only be valid for re-open votes. One of the major uses of Mjölnir, is to close questions before FGITW answers on obvious dupes. It's about speed. Speed isn't really relevant when re-opening questions. The "Reclosing with other target" should ideally be a separate process that doesn't involve close-votes. (I can dream, right?)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:03
  • I didn't consider the message a change like this would send to established users. As TLM pointed out, it's important to trust them. As such, I'm tempted to withdraw this FR, but maybe it should stay as dupe target.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:36
  • @Cerbrus Could be useful to keep it. I have an answer here on Meta that is at -13, but I keep it because it's useful to know that my answer is not a good idea.
    – user247702
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 12:04
  • @Stijn: My thought exactly.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 12:05

3 Answers 3

17

Unfortunately, the only way for SO to differentiate between who knows something in a certain tag and who doesn't is reputation (gold badge). I know that this isn't the correct measure, but that's the only measure that we can have.

Why is this even possible? Why can a single user overrule the "judgement" of 5 other users? Is the vote of those 5 users worth that little?

We trust the user. We trust users with close vote, delete vote, comment "powers". We assume that a person who has that privilege knows what he / she is doing. We do ensure that only those people who know that topic / tag well have that power. This certainly doesn't mean that 5 other votes were wrong or that the single person who wields his hammer is correct. The problem is that there is only one way for us to separate out who should have the power and who shouldn't and that is reputation. Honestly, we have no way of knowing who is right (i.e, 5 CVs or 1 Re-open vote).

Also, everyday thousands of posts are correctly closed by people wielding the hammer. It does help in reducing the number of dupes on the site. If the use of Mjölnirs was restricted / limited, then we could potentially end up with thousands of posts that need to be closed.

Questions that are incorrectly closed as dupes usually don't get a lot of attention. Expecting 5 (or even 3) people to vote to re-open it would take a lot of time. We don't want good questions to stay closed.

Yes, there will be cases where some high rep, hammer wielding people could close / re-open posts incorrectly and this is a necessary evil, something that we will have to live with. If you see someone frequently closing / re-opening things incorrectly, (we do see a lot of such cases) please raise a mod flag, we will look into it.

8
  • 1
    Thank you for your input. Basically, I can re-open any JS question I answered, just because I feel it shouldn't be closed. Now, I'm a responsible user, but I'd argue that that's too much power. This change wouldn't influence the power to close question. It would only limit the weight of a gold-badge reopen vote. Basically, we could still prevent FGITW answers on obvious dupes, but we'd need some more input on re-opening questions that have been closed, already.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:09
  • 2
    @Cerbrus - I understand your concern. But my point is again - trust the user to do the right thing. Limiting the use of Mjölnir could lead to good (non-dupe)questions staying closed for a long time. For example - A lot of questions in Java are closed as "obvious dupes" of NPE or == VS equals() but in reality the problems lie elsewhere. Expecting 5 (or 3) different people who know java to come and re-open such questions is wrong. Also, limiting the power would mean - we don't trust you. So, you will have the same power as the guy who has yourRep / 10)
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:21
  • @Cerbrus Maybe it just happened that you encountered such a situation a few times in the recent past, but in general I see it as a very little problem. Also if you see someone using their hammer wrong you can always write a comment, as you did here, or you can also bring the attention of the post to others and let them judge too. Also there is a reason why a post can't just be reopened/closed only once. And if you see someone abusing their hammer you can of course flag them.
    – Rizier123
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:28
  • 1
    @TheLostMind I haven't thought of it that way. I agree that the message "we trust you", especially with established users, is important. Rizier: "flag abusive users" seems to be a good solution for cases like these. (And heck of a lot easier to "implement" ;-) )
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:32
  • @Rizier123 - There will always be some questions that need re-opening (yes, that number is certainly not big) but the number of people who will be available to cast re-open votes will also be considerably less.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:36
  • 2
    @Cerbrus - Exactly. And from my personal experience, only a few people misuse their hammer. A lot of people become more responsible once they get the hammer. We need to trust them if we need their help and sure as heck, we do need their help
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:39
  • @TheLostMind: could we have a status-declined on this? That's make this a pretty nice dupe target, I think.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2016 at 6:24
  • There's a problem with this is that a person with too much experience can sometime switch into auto-pilot mode, read between the lines and incorrectly hammer the question. I've seen it happening and that's how I got here. I don't think this should be status-declined. Something needs to be done about this. Let people lead the community, not individuals.
    – Adelin
    Commented Feb 19, 2018 at 9:33
13

I disagree, for various reasons:

  1. The idea of Mjolnir is that a gold badge owner has enough contextual knowledge to know which questions are duplicates and which are not. It's not a reputation based privilege, but a badge based one. This means that 5 clueless users may blindly robot dupevote a question, and a single Mjolnir can take a look and reopen it.
  2. You're complaining that the 5 close votes of normal users are worth little, I look at it the other way. I say that the One close vote a Mjolnir casts is worth a lot, 5 times that of normal users, because we trust them with the responsibility and contextual familiarity with the tag.
  3. I haven't observed any significant problems with the current system. In the exceptional examples where there's a problem with a rogue Mjolnir, flag, and we'll take out Gungnir.
0
10

People with the hammer are expected to know what they are doing. If you find someone repeatedly misusing the privilege, raise a moderator flag to explain the situation.

We should not limit all the people who have the privilege, when some are misusing it.

For this specific case, I agree with reopening. Sure, the id attribute had an invalid value, but the core problem is that OP misunderstands the relation between the id attribute and href="#foo". That's not clear to OP when closing the question as a duplicate of that post.

3
  • 1
    For this specific case, The user that re-opened it has a answer on the question, and was involved in a discussion about closing it. In my opinion, he has too much personal involvement in the question to be able to single-handedly overrule 5 other users. Basically, I can re-open any JS question I answered, just because I feel it shouldn't be closed. Now, I'm a responsible user, but I'd argue that that's too much power.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:06
  • 3
    @Cerbrus then flag the user, I honestly just use Mjölnir when I'm totally sure, and I think is a great power, but not my fault others are using wrong. Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:07
  • @Cerbrus You could, yes. But if others find that you are misusing it often enough, they might notify a moderator about your behaviour.
    – user247702
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:15

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