-31

My question deals with the potential use of comments as a means for increased reputation, without the burden that's placed on the shoulders of full out answers. I feel like not rating in some way the comments leads to abuse.

My personal belief on community management is that a system, any system, is better than no system. However the comments, if not constructive, are worse than no answer at all. Bad comments can confuse people seeking answers, encourage people to stop using the site completely. To this end I agree with how things are run here to the extent that it keeps things from running off the rails. However, I find that in a lot of cases the comments tend to detract from the goals of the site.

I feel like the current system encourages people to take petty or pedantic pot shots at a person's question in the hopes an edit will take hold without actually having contributed much, but without actually having provided any actual expertise on the question either.

I also see a lot of comments that try to appeal to the white knight crowd. The ever popular "smells like homework" response, is all to often found as the first or second comment on a question.

This is all the more ridiculous considering that any question about programming, no matter how big or small, could always easily have been someone's homework assignment. The "smells like homework" responses almost calls to mind Reddit or 4chan like juvenile behavior.

The ability to flag comments as redundant obviously does reduce the toxic behavior, but there are some times when the typical category of flag doesn't fit the situation. It would be nice if there was some minor effect on reputation for abusive posts.

I think there needs to a lot more potential for both positive/negative points awarded for any comments, even if only fractional points. People who take the time to try and fully answer a question are probably liable for not too much down-vote potential, but I think more needs to be done to keep crap posting in the comments in check.

16
  • 10
    Comment votes don't get rep. You can flag bad comments.
    – davidism
    Aug 31, 2016 at 3:24
  • 1
    Right but they should get some kind of up and down points. I guess I can adjust what I'm saying here. Aug 31, 2016 at 3:25
  • 4
    @JeremyGamet Comments are second-class citizens of Stack Overflow. I don't see a problem with the flagging system that reputation wouldn't fix. If anything, giving rep for comment upvotes would encourage people to post more off-topic comments.
    – NobodyNada
    Aug 31, 2016 at 3:29
  • 1
    @NobodyNada you don't think that there is any change that could possibly improve the overall environment, and that things are 'perfect'? I mean obviously nothing is perfect, but it couldn't hurt to constructively look for possible changes. Aug 31, 2016 at 3:32
  • 4
    @JeremyGamet I didn't say things are perfect; I said I don't think giving rep will help anything.
    – NobodyNada
    Aug 31, 2016 at 3:33
  • @NobodyNada right, I even said that too, I'm aware that you probably don't think it's perfect, and you made it clear already that you don't think rep would help. But you didn't give a constructive way to help the situation that you think would work. This is kind of my point. Because it's a comment and not an answer, you can take pot shots at my question without having to think at all about constructive solutions. And this eventually is toxic overall. Aug 31, 2016 at 3:37
  • And, agree with me on the solution I mentioned or not, a LOT of comments sections devolve into snarky shootouts. Aug 31, 2016 at 3:42
  • 6
    Consider that if enough "toxic" people are around, posting "toxic" comments will result in a net gain of reputation... and much whining when such comments are deleted. Aug 31, 2016 at 3:49
  • Yes, and that kind of drives me bonkers! But alas, I expressed a desire to improve things and it was met with a load of down-votes, because how dare I not fall in line with the powers that be right? Aug 31, 2016 at 3:53
  • 7
    @JeremyGamet I, and presumably the other downvoters, voted on what the question says, which is "Is the lack of reputation gain/loss for comments encouraging of a toxic environment?" My response (which I have been considering turning into an answer since I posted it) of "no, rep won't help" was answering the question you asked, and just because I don't have a better proposal doesn't mean I have to agree with yours.
    – NobodyNada
    Aug 31, 2016 at 4:03
  • 1
    Mandatory reading about voting on meta. Votes don't mean the same thing here as they do on main, however it would be nice if any one of the downvoters decided to express their disagreement with an answer. Also, "the powers that be" probably haven't voted on your question yet -- possibly, but not likely -- the people voting on your question are just regular users like you.
    – user4639281
    Aug 31, 2016 at 4:28
  • 1
    If I had a better proposal, I would post that as an answer. As it is, I merely think that your proposed change is not an improvement. I post a comment here to explain my behavior because it is not suitable as an answer, but I hope this will help you (a) understand what the comments here are saying, and maybe (b) better understand the reception you are getting, and perhaps even eventually (c) improve your question, or come up with a different, better proposal which takes this feedback into account.
    – tripleee
    Aug 31, 2016 at 4:37
  • 3
    If you see snarky comments, please flag them so that moderators can investigate the incident. There is also an effort underway to report snarky comments in the SOCV Finder chat room if you would like to engage there- snarky comments which the automation missed are good test cases.
    – tripleee
    Aug 31, 2016 at 4:45
  • 7
    because how dare I not fall in line with the powers that be right? sigh... no. A number of people read your proposal and disagreed it's a good idea, so they downvoted it. It's how it works on Meta. You have a number of perfectly polite comments explaining why people don't think it's a good idea. but it couldn't hurt to constructively look for possible changes yes, that's pretty much everything people do around here. There's hundreds of suggestions on how to deal with nasty comments (including this exact one, in several incarnations) and encourage nice ones.
    – Pekka
    Aug 31, 2016 at 5:31
  • 1
    I also disagree. But it might be an idea to allow for comment downvoting, but instead of a point value, if you go below 0 your comment starts to fade out.
    – user1228
    Aug 31, 2016 at 13:58

4 Answers 4

14

Let's establish three things here:

  • Comments require 50 reputation to even partake in. According to SEDE, there are about 700,000 accounts that can compared to the 5 million that can't.
  • Comments earn absolutely no reputation, but can qualify a user for a few badges...and that's about it.
  • Comments are really meant to establish some sort of clarity of the question as opposed to used for any form of extended discussion or anecdote on the question. If you see comments becoming toxic, flag it without hesitation.

I should define "toxic" though.

Comments which are:

  • inflammatory
  • rude
  • overall not constructive to the question itself (i.e. Google it; you should know this; why don't you do your homework instead; smells like homework; etc.)
  • noisy
  • offensive

Comments which aren't toxic are the ones that do expose flaws with the question (which serve to help clarify the question). This can come across as harsh at times, but with a discerning eye you can usually spot the difference.

Something to the tune of:

Your attempting to foo the bar but this wouldn't give you baz. What are you really trying to accomplish? Please be clearer here.

...is far preferable to:

Why did you think that fooing the bar would give you baz? Why would this make sense?

To this point:

The ability to flag comments as redundant obviously does reduce the toxic behavior, but there are some times when the typical category of flag doesn't fit the situation.

If you have an example, we'd love to see it, since it could fall in one of two buckets:

  • It is unnecessary to clarify the question and is indeed flag-worthy, or
  • It asks a clarifying question and has some value, and is not flag-worthy.
12

Probably not.

I've used - and I'm sure you have as well - systems where there wasn't a clear distinction between "comments", "answers" and "replies".

When Stack Overflow was very new, comments didn't exist; apart from a few brief dalliances with wiki-style edit-replies, all forms of interaction happened in answers.

Today, meta sites function as single-level threaded discussions, with answers serving as a venue for both responses to the question and long-form rebuttals to other answers.

The outcome of all these tends to be the same: a perverse incentive to become more controversial, more combative in your writing. A post which attracts no attention generates no reputation, positive or negative; in keeping with the "reputation" metaphor, the author stands to gain neither fame nor infamy. Better then to roll the dice, to take an extreme position, and thus become eligible for a reward if that position happens to be shared by even a slim majority of readers.

This is largely avoided today on Stack Overflow by a strict adherence to questions that can be answered objectively and ruthless deletion of answers that do not at some level attempt to answer the question being asked. Tangential opinions, critiques and the like are banished to comments where this incentive for polarization is greatly diminished (though hardly eliminated).

The big problem that remains with comments isn't that there's no reward for posting useful ones... It's that there's no cost to posting as many useless ones as you can muster. If I get it in my head to flood the site with comments that criticize an author's choice of platform or technique, that play to an audience thirsty for laughs or blood... The system lets me do so; unless and until a moderator is alerted and my account is suspended, I'm free to post as much dreck as I wish to. A system to combat this would probably start by severely rate-limiting comments, allowing more to be posted only as I'm able to demonstrate an ability to do so constructively.

5
  • Yes! rate-limit comments from abusive or spammy sources. I think that would help a lot.
    – Travis J
    Aug 31, 2016 at 22:14
  • Ironically, @Travis, I've seen you spam a link to that same question of yours in 3 different comments over the last day or so... Sep 1, 2016 at 11:15
  • Do you think subtracting rep for flagged & deleted comments would help?
    – NobodyNada
    Sep 1, 2016 at 15:56
  • I don't, @NobodyNada. That's just asking folks to earn their bullshit.
    – Shog9
    Sep 1, 2016 at 18:25
  • @CodyGray - Spam? Hardly. I could create a new discussion here at MSO for it. I am sick of seeing people abuse comments, and users who are constantly having them deleted or deleting them after making some snarky point should be rate limited.
    – Travis J
    Sep 1, 2016 at 18:55
9

A voting system would be far less effective for dealing with toxic comments than the flagging system already in place.

Voting is democratic - a group of like-minded people could easily protect a nasty comment from removal or sanctions.

Flagging calls in the cops, so to speak, and comments get censored based on our rules, no matter how many people like them.

1
  • 1
    Perhaps a voting sytem would be less effective. Perhaps not. We just don't know because we don't have a voting system; all we have is a "like" button (upvote only). Many negatively voted posts are removed on meta where reputation has no effect. If comments could be downvoted (without a reputation penalty), then the amount of comment deletion would increase. This would not interfere with flagging. However, comment downvoting is never going to be put in place and that discussion has come and gone many times.
    – Travis J
    Aug 31, 2016 at 22:18
6

I don't think reputation gain/loss is a good idea because people upvote "funny," off-topic comics. Sure, they may get downvoted too...but we already have flags, and it only takes 1-3 flags to delete a comment.

The people who would downvote unconstructive comments under this system are the same people who flag them right now. For the poster of the comment to be penalized, it would require more people to think "that comment is off-topic; flag" than "that comment is funny; +1."


One thing that might work is subtracting rep if a comment is flagged & deleted, but without rep gains for upvotes.

1
  • I agree, this is kind of what I was looking for. This is a potential solution to the problem, rather than saying "this solution you mentioned isn't going to work." I think something like this would be effective. Sep 1, 2016 at 15:54

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .