46

I just got banned for this review: https://stackoverflow.com/review/low-quality-posts/13363218

Can someone please tell me why exactly so I don't make the same mistake again?

It did not tell me why it failed just listed all the possible reasons in a comma delimited list. I don't find that very helpful to learn from. Is it bad because it has a link in it? I don't use java myself so don't understand all the elements of the question (should i skip a question like that - it wouldn't leave many left to review though)

Screenshot:

enter image description here

23
  • Screenshot for the sub-10k people? (we can't see the answer you reviewed)
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:00
  • @Magisch: Edited in.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:03
  • 2
    Ben, I'm not quite sure why the answer got deleted in the first place. However, note that you don't get review banned for just a single failed audit.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:04
  • 5
    Maybe it was deleted as plagiarism because the code is 1:1 copied from the blog it links to @Cerbrus. I just verified that. But still, thats a stretch to expect someone to find in review.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:18
  • 2
    Yeah i made a mistake before about a month ago and got a 5 day ban i think it was. It was totally legitimate after a second look although easy to miss. But this does not look like a fair ban to me. Why so extreme a ban after i have passed countless audit tests? Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:19
  • Maybe i should ask the deleter (deletee? the person who deletes) @Flexo Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:20
  • 2
    When you get a audit ban, you are more restricted after the ban expires. You're "on a shorter leash", to prevent recurring mistakes.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:22
  • 4
    Why can I not be redeemed from my mistakes by passing review tests. Especially when said mistake is not clear why its even a mistake! Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:23
  • 5
    Odd that nobody can see that this answer completely fails to answer the question. Not the kind of thing that's easy to see when one spends 10 seconds on a review, no doubt. Voting "looks okay" when the post doesn't even exist anymore is however a guaranteed audit fail. Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:28
  • 24
    @HansPassant: An incorrect answer should be downvoted. Not necessarily deleted.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:43
  • 2
    Disagreeing with a moderator is fine, the machine however assumes her decision is a more reliable indicator than an opinion. It has no opinion, it is a machine. Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 8:52
  • 6
    I had no idea you could be banned for doing reviews, but reading this page and the comments completely discourages me from ever contributing to reviews. What a crazy system. Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 16:16
  • 11
    @AndyNoelker: I agree --- it's like something out of Dilbert. "This is a vital maintenance task for our site, and we'd really appreciate your help. All who volunteer their time will receive electric shocks at random intervals. Thanks in advance!" Why would anyone enter that minefield? Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 1:41
  • 7
    @AndyNoelker It's a "review ban", not a ban from the site. The idea is that if you review badly repeatedly, you are temporarily banned from reviewing. All the other features of the site remain available. Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 14:45
  • 2
    @Kevin J. Chase: precisely for this reason - "This is a vital maintenance task for our site" - the quality of reviews is much more important than comfort of the people who are doing the reviews.
    – artem
    Commented Aug 20, 2016 at 4:46

3 Answers 3

49

You did nothing wrong reviewing. It would seem that you failed the review because the review audit generating system is bad and broken. The low-quality review audits are particularly broken, it picks posts that were deleted as an example of a bad answer.

Occasionally, it happens that diamond mods delete posts that seems fine to normal users, because they can see the greater picture in ways that normal users and review-audit bots can't. Perhaps the user who posted it was a spammer. Perhaps the link in the post was spam or lead to some questionable site. Perhaps it was plagiarism.

We can't know why, but the moderator likely had their reasons to delete the post, even though it looks like an ok answer.

17
  • 34
    OK thanks for the explanation. I don't think i'll bother reviewing anymore. Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:34
  • 10
    @BenRhys-Lewis sadly that was one of those audits that because of flags/voting on it - it made it a valid candidate even though it looks fine. I've lifted the review ban the system issued.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:38
  • 37
    I wish actual review abusers were as keen as you on dropping it and never reviewing again after just one failed audit.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:38
  • 7
    Well, actually, from what is visible in the audit, you can see a) that this is a recent answer (three weeks ago) to a three year old question and b) that the user has been removed since then. That gives you enough hints for looking closer rather than just clicking “looks ok”. The simplest thing you can do, is open the question in a new tab to see “the greater picture” and when you do this simple thing, you can never fail an audit as you will see that the answer has been deleted already. Amount of work: three seconds…
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:38
  • 19
    @BenRhys-Lewis It might indeed be a good idea to boycott reviews. The audits have been broken forever, yet SO won't fix them. If everyone stops doing reviews, then maybe they'll eventually wake up.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:39
  • 34
    @Holger Reviewers shouldn't have to "look for fishy hints". They should just read the answer and act on its quality. If the solution to this problem is "learn to spot audits" then why are there audits to begin with?
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:43
  • 26
    @BoltClock Ok so the review audits demoralizes the good reviewers but not the review abusers? Great audit system.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:45
  • 6
    @Lundin: I’m not saying that you should look for “fishy hints” nor “try to spot audits”. I’m saying that you should pay attention. The fact, that you recognize audits easily when doing it, is just a side effect. If this post was not an audit, there had to be a reason why it ended up in the review queue. You should try to find out why.
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:45
  • 2
    @Holger The very reason why we have manual review is that posts get flagged as low-quality when they are not. If there is always a reason why something ends up in the queue, we don't need the queue nor do we need the reviews.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:48
  • 4
    @Lundin: You may disagree with a flag after you understood its motivation. There may be flags that turn out to be unfounded. But you should not assume that the majority of all flags is nonsense nor that the user who flagged a post is stupid. If you can’t recognize why a post has been flagged, you may consider trying to pay more time to find out. If that’s too much for you, well, it might be exactly the purpose of the audits to get you off the reviews…
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:54
  • 14
    @Lundin Its a bit additionally sad because its the LQP queue. By community consensus, the only judgement you pass and should be passing in that queue is "Is it even an attempt to answer", and if yes, checking "Looks OK". Plagiarism, or other more complicated shenanigans aren't for the LQP queue to deal with.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 10:55
  • 1
    Yep, the review audit system assumes perfect knowledge availability, unfortunately.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 13:53
  • 17
    @Holger No, you shouldn't. The LQP is "is it even an attempt to answer? Yes? Then Looks Ok." That post isn't a LQP by that standard. Going to the page should not be required to determine if a post is a LQP. It should be clear without that context. About the only reason to go to the page is to test if it is an audit, no? Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 14:38
  • 5
    @Yakk: as already said, when I see a new answer added to a three year old question, I go and check whether it adds something useful to the thread. In 99% of all cases, it’s spam or plagiarism. Does that not match the definition of “low quality”? Perhaps, but why do I do the review in the first place? a) to make this website a better place by deleting postings that should be deleted, regardless of the exact reason or whether the audit system is perfect or b) to rush through the queue to get a gold badge and complain anytime it slows me down?
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 14:54
  • 1
    @JonClements This leads to the question: Could the mod tools be improved to prevent these posts from falling into the audit pool? Perhaps a "Delete + Good Audit" button, vs "Delete" button?
    – Blue
    Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:32
-4

The sequence of events is rather simple, as Hans Passant explained in comments. You voted "looks ok" on an answer which is deleted. And that's all she wrote, audit failed. Just plain machine logic, nothing to take personally. The true learning to be done is not in why you failed the audit, but in how you could have prevented yourself from clicking the wrong button button that triggers an audit failure.

Given that you're actually asking how you could know what is wrong, I'm going to focus on that. There are a few paths that you could have taken that could have made you escape the pending doom, in this case. No guarantees, sometimes the red herring dangling in front of you just doesn't smell.

Path #1: actually opening the question in a new tab to scan the more complete picture. Normally, pulling out of review for a second is especially prudent when you're not familiar with the subject matter (Java) which you aren't in this case by your own admission - you are best off to see comments and possible other answers to get enough input to be able to make a reasoned review decision. heck, it can help to see if there are edits that have already been done on the content. Those are all things you can't see in review.

You would have spotted that the answer in fact no longer exists. That is basically the only clue you need that "looks ok" is absolutely not the option to choose.

This is less relevant for this particular review queue however, as Magisch rightfully explains in the comments. I quote:

Actually, you don't need to be in command of the subject material to review LQP posts. The only judgement you make in that queue is "Is this even an attempt of an answer?" If yes, "Looks OK"

That makes it especially more difficult to "catch" the audit using this method as you have a lot less reason to go look at the entire question. That doesn't change the fact that it can do the job.

Path #2: According to Magisch in the comments there is a user script which can help to spot audits, which is a safeguard against these kind of awkward/bad audit targets. I'm not going to say you must install such a thing, but you could.


When it comes to other queues there are more tricks to not be burned by an audit, indeed such as skipping when you're reviewing proposed edits you're not sure of.

I'm not going to argue with Lundin that the review audit system is broken because it is definitely flawed in several ways. But that wasn't the question asked.

15
  • 11
    You shouldn't need to open up the post in a separate window. In the case of low-quality reviews you absolutely don't need to know the topic either. Your job as low-quality reviewer isn't to spot technically incorrect answers - use down votes for that - but to spot complete crap. Things like posted question as answer, answer is nothing but a comment asking for clarification etc etc.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 9:52
  • @Lundin you shouldn't need to, but I highlighted a specific case that in my opinion actually applies here where it is a good idea and would in fact have prevented the audit fail. I'm not touching the state of reviewing or the audit system, that's been discussed at length.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 10:04
  • @Gimby Actually, you don't need to be in command of the subject material to review LQP posts. The only judgement you make in that queue is "Is this even an attempt of an answer?" If yes, "Looks OK". I've brought this up multiple times myself and thats how its been explained to me always. On your second point, many a people use userscripts checking for the ajax form dialog flag to see if its an audit and display an indicator.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 10:52
  • 1
    @Magisch Argh! I think my use of the words "wrong button" misleads into thinking that I think the review outcome is correct, let me fix. Really, I agree with you that "looks OK" was the correct choice to make. But again, that is not what the question is about.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 11:25
  • @Gimby I was actually commenting on Path#2. You are not supposed or expected to skip on questions that you don't understand. You don't even look at the question most times. Your only thought-flow is "Does this attempt to answer". There is nothing arcane or complicated in that. Clicking "Looks OK" on an answer that may or may not be correctly adressing the intricacies of the question but definitely tries is not a gamble, its using the review queue as intended.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 11:36
  • @Magisch yeah you're absolutely right.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 11:44
  • 6
    @Gimby and in this case the post still had a spam flag on it when it was deleted which made it available for audit. I've cleared that and re-deleted the post. It should drop out of the audit queue shortly.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 11:50
  • 1
    I hope I cleaned most of the irrelevant gunk out of there. @JonClements another win for the meta effect :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 11:52
  • 8
    If you have to open the post in another window to see what everyone else thought of it before making a decision while reviewing it in the queue, the queue is pointless. If you're unable to make a decision you should skip that review, not bandwagon on what everyone else has already decided.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 14:05
  • 2
    @eddie_cat Thankfully nobody, really absolutely nobody, said to any effect that you have to open the question in another window/tab then.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 14:52
  • 3
    @Gimby of course you don't have to if you don't mind failing review audits, but every time this sort of question comes up people suggest that that is what the person should have done in order to pass the audit, rather than addressing the actual problem which is that the review audit system is broken. This is not a problem with your answer at all, I was just commenting on the inanity of the current system.
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 15:17
  • 2
    @Lundin if you stop pretending that you're a diamond moderator with binding vote and hundreds flags to process in front of you, you may discover how things look from a bit different perspective. "Worth noting that at 20 LQ reviews a day limit, one has plenty time to do more thorough check of reviewed posts... Not to mention that there is no shame in using “Skip” if it feels too much work.."
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 15:51
  • @eddie_cat Fair enough. I just like to remind myself that a situation without the inane system is far worse, which keeps me from being frustrated and forever interested in the subject of making it better. Until then... damage control and extra measures to guard yourself are whats on the table from my perspective.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 17, 2016 at 16:22
  • 1
    @gnat Where did that come from? All I did was to explain how low-quality reviews work and pointed out that the system is flawed by design - since it is often not enough to just use the review dialog interface as intended. Which has nothing to do with time spent reviewing.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 6:10
  • 1
    @Lundin time factor is critical here - because I have plenty time (unlike moderators). I open troublesome post in separate tab and carefully study everything - other answers, question, comments. Everything - just like Atwood said. When I decide that post looks OK or is worth deletion, I vote accordingly. If, even after thorough study, I can't make my mind I skip - unlike moderators I have that option
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 7:22
-15

Very Simple:

You admit I don't use java myself so don't understand .... That is where you failed.

Skip things you are not qualified or competent to make a judgement on and you will not have this problem in the future.

Even better:

Filter on only the tags that are relevant to your competency and stay away from tags that have lots of incompetent people voting incorrectly that will catch you out when you vote correctly but the popular thing is the opposite. Those tags need not be mentioned as they are pretty easy to guess which ones I am talking about.

That said:

The LQP should just be avoided completely, the system is broken and you are more likely to get punished than rewarded, so just leave it alone.

3
  • 3
    I think you're doing the same thing I did initially in my answer and that is to generalise all review queues as if they're all to be treated the same. But Consider Magisch' comments on my answer - for the LQP queue the rules for ok/not ok are far more simplistic and you don't need to know the nitty-gritty of the content to review it.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:05
  • nope, the risks are the same in all the review queues, don't review things you can't make a judgement on and you won't ever get banned for a shitty audit question. And the best advice is the LQP is just to be avoided completely. I have not failed a review audit in what amounts to internet years/decades at this point for a reason.
    – user177800
    Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:21
  • Well I can't argue that this strategy works flawlessly ;)
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:22

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