I've just been looking at the epic answer of Mysticial, and realized that the question was transformed to community wiki 1 hour ago by a mod. Is there a reason why this happened? A quick glance at meta didn't tell me.
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19The solution is simple: find the reviewers and review-ban them.– Deer HunterCommented Jan 28, 2016 at 23:16
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16It seems worth noting that the "edit" that caused this to jump into focus was horrible and should have been rejected anyway. Another win for roboreviewing...– DavidGCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 1:28
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59Here is the mod deleted official answer for less than 10k i.sstatic.net/clPEp.png– Bhargav RaoCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:17
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29@BhargavRao that answer should definitely be undeleted, mods should stand behind their actions.– JALCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:27
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8I did mod flag to get the answer back as I believe it should not be deleted.– NathanOliverCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:37
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17It seems like there should be some kind of consequence for moderators abusing their power (incorrectly making an answer community wiki for really crappy reasons, and then deleting their own answer explaining why).– CornstalksCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:39
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21@Cornstalks: There are consequences. This meta post is an essential part of that process. At minimum, the mod who did this has been embarrassed in front of the whole SO community (Hot Meta Posts list is helping with that quite a lot). Lessons will be learned... and in the worst case, if the community demands demotion and removal of privileges from a particular moderator, we'll get it.– Ben VoigtCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:45
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8@BalusC and others, I'll give George the benefit of the doubt that the reason for the delete is that he's preparing a properly worded mea culpa, or at least an answer that can be minimally defended. For the record, BalusC: I've just read today about your...hmm... interaction with George from March, so I quite understand your comment.– Andras Deak -- Слава УкраїніCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 16:08
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18My mod flag to get the answer back was declined. i.sstatic.net/XbUXv.png– JALCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 16:22
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10@JAL what does "no longer applicable" even mean if the answer is still deleted?– Andras Deak -- Слава УкраїніCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 16:24
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25Same here. It should be brought back and we should be able to discuss with George, This is still relevant and I take offence to a moderator deleting his answer with his reason. Comeon mods keeps your answer out there if it is not liked and take accountability for your actions.– NathanOliverCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 16:24
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10@Two-BitAlchemist - George did not decline those flags. Another moderator did. We typically do not handle any flags on our own posts, to avoid any conflict of interest.– Brad Larson ModCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 21:26
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10@BenVoigt Mods make mistakes. They are human. There was no abuse of power here, this was easily corrected and no damage was done.– Taryn StaffModCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 21:28
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19@bluefeet I can understand your position to an extent, but "no damage was done"? A mod took an ill-advised, unjustifiable action against an important answer and user -- not the first time this mod has done it, either -- gave a tonedeaf response, deleted it, gave another. It's at least damaged the community's trust relationship with mods somewhat. The community isn't very divided on this. It doesn't help at all if other mods seem to be circling the wagons.– Two-Bit AlchemistCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 21:38
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7@bluefeet I think a huge part of the problem is George's reaction. Unless I've missed it, he hasn't apologized yet, and I'd expect more than a little apologizing. Of course mods make mistakes, but there are much better ways of handling it when that happens.– Andras Deak -- Слава УкраїніCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 21:59
4 Answers
As the person who stands to lose the most from this, I feel the need to comment. You already know what I'm going to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
I strongly disagree with the wiki'ing of the Branch Prediction question and its answers.
Why? There is nothing to gain from doing so and a lot to lose.
Let me tell you a story that few of you have heard about. When I first joined SO back in 2011, I was quick to catch the rep fever. For those first 3 months, I was one of those notorious "repwhores" who was addicted to spamming the site with answers in an effort to gain rep and recognition. Sound familiar to anyone?
But at some point, I started coming across those massively upvoted questions. And each time I see one of those, I'm like, "Wow... That's pretty amazing. And a lot of rep." Sure some of them are undeserved. But many of these highly upvoted posts got there for a reason: They are extremely informational and of high quality.
At first was a bit of jealousy, but when you come across stuff like Eric Lippert's Hotel Keys, they become truly inspirational. That's when I realized there were better things to do on Stack Overflow. I wanted to become the next Eric Lippert. I wanted to post the next Hotel Keys and contribute to SO's repertoire of amazing content written by true experts in the industry.
And that's when the switch flipped. No more was I gonna post those one-time FGITW answers that help only one person. I was gonna start posting stuff with a broader audience that are attractive to a larger population. Sure, there was some intrinsic motivation involved. But why does that matter when you're benefiting the entire community?
Call it selfish, but if Eric Lippert's hotel keys was a wiki, I wouldn't have given a crap. Why should I spend the effort to post such an answer if it's gonna be made a wiki? Likewise, why should I post such an answer if it's gonna get locked? Wiki doesn't just take away the rep, it takes away your name, your flair, and a path for employers to find your profile. (And yes, I've gotten job offers from my answers.)
Four years later, these things matter less. But that wasn't the case back in 2011.
Enough babbling. Wiki'ing the Branch Prediction Q/A doesn't solve anything. It won't reduce the number edits or the bumps. In fact, it will actually increase them because of the lower rep-threshold for wiki.
If this is about rep-denial. Fine. I'll gladly give up half my rep for a guarantee that the Branch Prediction question and its answers remain unlocked, undeleted, and non-wiki for the entire community to enjoy in its full and former glory. May it be the inspiration for the next great and famous question that is the face of Stack Overflow.
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11You'll give up half your rep, as long as they don't reset your notifications I trust :)– seheCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 0:54
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27Exceptional answers by subject matter experts (12 trillion digits of PI, anyone?) on complex subjects deserve the recognition that they generate. The decision by another user to edit such an answer should be taken very seriously, especially if the author is active and committed to maintaining those answers.– Tim M.Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 2:49
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5I wish someone will say: I wanted to become the next Alexander Yee Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 8:28
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20I approve this expert. And his attitude. (Commenting because support may mean more when it comes from a gold c++ / silver performance badge holder). As a matter of fact, how on earth does Mysticial only have a bronze performance badge? Oh right, the requirement is for non-community wiki answers So George's action is actively blocking awarding Mysticial with performance badges that he deserves more than anyone else I know. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:36
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2@Mystical You may have flipped the switch for for a lot of us (when we saw this), although the transition from FGTIW mode may not come as soon as one would like it to (writing well though answers requires a lot of knowledge and not everyone has calculated 12.1 trillion digits of Pi :-) ), it has sowed the seed.– ishaqCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:37
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5I once edited that answer to replace "momentum" with "inertia". I'm part of the problem! :/– canonCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 15:48
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1
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1I agree with this outlook. It solves nothing to be a wiki. I was quite honestly shocked when I saw this post come up yesterday, and I am glad the action was reversed.– Travis JCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 19:33
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2The requirement is for 80 non-wiki answers, @BenVoigt. For which one would need at least 80 answers in the tag..– Shog9Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 21:21
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6That's a bit of a stretch, @TylerH. Not only because the answer hasn't been CW since last night, but also because to actively block a badge it would have to be the only thing standing between Mysticial and the badge. (If Mysticial wanted the badge, I doubt he'd have trouble getting it in any case)– Shog9Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 21:28
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4@Shog9: "Actively blocking" is so much commenting on the single action as the manner in which George says he uses CW and plans to continue doing so in the future. Although if Mysticial had 79 other 0 score answers in the tag, CW of this single answer could well make the difference of badge or not. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 21:34
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2@Shog9 I didn't say I thought it was a big deal, just that it's what Ben Voigt probably meant. Though it would be a troubling precedent; moderators actively handicapping a user, even a tiny amount, for bad reasons.– TylerHCommented Jan 30, 2016 at 21:25
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1Thanks for the kind words; I appreciate it. I must admit, I have no idea what consequence making something "community wiki" does to an answer. Maybe it changes something about how the fake points are awarded? I've never bothered to learn as it didn't seem to matter. In any event, since I don't know what it does, it does not factor into my decision as to whether to answer a question or not. Commented Feb 4, 2016 at 22:57
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1No, I saw it as a way to find out what confuses people about developer tools. Gamification is a nice way to express what behaviours are desirable. Commented Feb 5, 2016 at 3:01
Moderators, please revert this action and carefully check for similar actions that may not correspond to the purpose of converting an answer to a CW.
The purpose of CW is e.g. explained in this post and does not contain any of the two reasons enumerated by the moderator.
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22Totally agree, the day posts will become CW just because they "got too many upvotes" and it will be official, is the day I will stop using SO for good, and probably many others Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 18:02
At one time there was a problem with questions being automatically flagged when too many comments were entered. As SO matured, many questions started to collect enough comments that automatic flagging started to kick in when there was really no issue for anybody to deal with.
That was (largely) cured by considering timing in comments--N comments entered in an hour still kicked off the automatic flagging behavior, but the same number over a much longer period of time did not (because the latter showed little or no evidence of real controversy).
Based on George Stocker's answer, it sounds to me like it's time to consider roughly the same modification to help deal with edits. 5 edits in 15 minutes might well deserve a flag. 5 edits over the course of years probably doesn't.
Another possibility would be to consider a new feature: a level of protection that's essentially the opposite of community wiki. Once a question has been edited N times (that aren't just reversals of other edits) that reflects N times that users have judged that the question is now correct. Based on that, the level of reputation necessary to edit that question would be raised; only relatively trusted users should be allowed to (essentially) single-handedly veto the results of earlier edits, and change that question yet again.
Note that these two are not mutually exclusive either. In fact, I think both probably make sense.
As to the notion that this question has had its time in the sun: I think this is nonsense. The existing votes indicate that a lot of people think this is not merely a good question and a good answer, but the single best answer in the entire history of Stack Overflow. Deciding that we should take the best content we have and try to reduce its visibility and availability is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've seen in years.
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4I'm always wary about (correctly) guessing manual limits such as N number of edits. But how about correlating the edit rep threshold with the protected state of questions? Important questions are already protected, and protected questions are exactly the ones that can have a lot of useless edits like we're talking about. The users who'd add "me too" and "thanks" answers are the same who add useless edit suggestions to the very same questions (and the review queue clearly doesn't filter these all out). Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 1:19
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2@AndrasDeak: More or less irrelevant: it won't make a whole lot of difference whether you choose 5 vs. 10 vs.15. It's also open to adjustment; "he chose...poorly" doesn't have to carry a death sentence. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 1:37
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@Shog9 is it a side-effect of locking that the authors of the posts are not shown in the CW format, but with their usercard? The revision history doesn't say anything about undoing the CW status, so it's a bit odd. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 12:18
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2Revision history appears to be broken, @AndrasDeak. Ah... Looks like the "un-CW-everything" tool forgets to record it. Oh well, it's rare.– Shog9Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 14:22
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@Shog9 tangentially related question: can by any chance mods edit their comments beyond the 5-minute window? I would've sworn that the second part of your comment wasn't there for hours. Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 1:17
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Yeah, I figured I'd add a clarification @AndrasDeak. When I woke up this morning, revision history was broken (on every post, for moderators, for an unrelated reason) so I assumed that was related - as it turns out, the unwiki entry just didn't get added.– Shog9Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 1:19
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Awesome (well, not the "broken history" part), thanks for clarifying @Shog9. Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 1:19
I caused a mess. I'm sorry.
Hopefully this response will be better than my last.
I CW'd the question for a few reasons, not the least of which it was the least destructive way to put a stop to the crappy edits being made while I could figure out a better way to handle it (by conversing with the other moderators) (and it does stop the reputation motive for bumping edits; which at the time seemed like a good way to cool down any edits made -- not only on that post, but for people who attach their name to that post and then receive reputation from others seeing their name).
And oh, did I tell you I was due to get on a plane shortly thereafter?
I literally wrote that meta answer as I was on my way to the plane and wanted to be sure that people knew that I saw their concern and was letting you know why I did it (in a rushed fashion).
So, now that I've slept on it, and have a little more time to write a good answer, I'll do that.
It's gotten a ton of flags; 125 + 60 just on the question and the top answer, and it feels like it pops up in our flag queue on a regular basis.
There are definitely some improvements that could be made to flags around really popular (non-closed) questions, which I'll talk about later in this answer.
It really is a lightning rod for activity; and at that particular moment, I was really frustrated to see it again, and to see that a lot of the edits are just minor edits.
So I made it CW until I could figure out a better way to handle the issue.
Of course, people noticed it immediately and of course I was getting on a plane, so that made it rather awkward to deal with at that moment.
Shog9 let me know he locked it and I thought, "yea, I could have done that too." but that seemed more destructive for the interim than making it CW to stop those edits.
As a result of this getting bumped into the flag queue the threshold for edits to trigger a flag has been changed to ensure posts that make it into the queue really are issues that need to be addressed immediately.
The robo-edit reviewers and the users who made the meaningless edits have been banned from editing; the question is now unlocked again, and you have my word that I won't make it Community Wiki again.
So bottom line: I acted from a position of frustration, looking to do the least destructive thing I could think of at the time.
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18It's been around for years, and it isn't as though it gets edited every day. Why would you take brash action while figuring out "a better way to handle the issue" instead of leaving it and figuring out how to appropriately handle the issue in your own opinion first?– miraduloCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 17:08
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17Also, looking at the community's response and the apparent blatant abuse of mod powers, I would have expected a lot more mea culpa. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 17:13
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31This brings more light on what happened, and I believe an important factor was that plane you had to get on -- it might have made you take the CW decision in a more rushed manner than usual, and it apparently prevented you from properly defending yourself on Meta. Therefore, my humble suggestion would be to extend our Don't post and run away rule into Don't moderate and run away. You could have delegated the action to one of your fellow moderators and go catch that plane. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 17:26
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20@AndrasDeak I'm not sure calling it an "abuse of mod powers" is really called for. It was a mistake, it's since been undone, I'm happy with that.– DavidGCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 17:29
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8Why couldn't it have waited until you had the time? I don't think waiting a day would have changed anything if you left it alone until you had the time to act properly. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 17:30
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7@FrédéricHamidi Reminds me of this time I was was so eager to quickly code a small change to a live site. It was so small it just couldn't fail...– BraiamCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 17:35
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15[feature-request] - We need an edit lock that prevents users from editing extremely high traffic questions/answers that don't need improvement while still allowing voting/commenting. Mysticial's answer doesn't need any improvement which means that a community wiki makes absolutely no sense. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 17:54
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5@DavidG I'm only willing to call it abuse since we have yet to see a valid explanation to why CWing would solve anything concerning the question (after 2 answers from George). Only moderators can turn a question into CW, and for a very good reason... Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 18:20
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21It's funny how your "bottom line" mentions you "acted from a position of frustration" (implying you made the wrong decision, no?) and yet your entire post, even after you've "slept on it" is just defensiveness about your original, wildly unpopular, and apparently unjustified action. No apology to the community, seemingly no regret (maybe you regret the community's reaction). Just sad. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 20:55
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7@Two-BitAlchemist yeah. Prior to voting, I re-read it twice trying to find plain "that was a mistake, sorry"– gnatCommented Jan 29, 2016 at 20:58
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22I don't follow. How can Community Wiki stop edits being made? Isn't the entire point of Community Wiki to make editing available to all users and encourage it? Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 20:58
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6Maybe you can sleep on the issue a bit more, and make a proper apology. Please leave out any plane-boarding details. Think it's a good suggestion to refrain from modding while on a flight or getting ready for one. Commented Jan 29, 2016 at 22:03
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10I don't understand why people are begging for blood. Something happened, that action was reversed, end of story. It just looks like a failed experiment to me. Does an apology make a difference? I don't think so. Also, locking the post prevents anything from happening, including voting so IMO that wasn't an option.– DavidGCommented Jan 30, 2016 at 0:00
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9@DavidG I can only speak for myself, but compared to the intense reaction from the community, I see very few pitchforks and torches. Most people are suggesting possible alternative courses of action, past and future. As for me, I do believe an apology makes a difference. To err is human, but being a fair and honest person (which should obviously be a requirement for any moderator) can only show in gestures like this. The point is not being perfect, but rather taking responsibility for one's own mistakes (and I believe an honest apology is an important part of this process). Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 0:09
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7@DavidG The reason for the unusually hostile response may be that a main reason for the action seems to have been the large number of flags raised on the post - a problem that only affects moderators. I guess that, reasonably or not, many people feel resentment towards mods when they take actions that reduce their workload at the cost of actively harming or obstructing other people contributing to the site. Shog's +/-1 filter aimed at reducing rage-flags triggered by arguments and revenge attacks over downvotes is another example - a widely-hated policy from an otherwise hugely popular mod. Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 0:31