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I was wondering how I suddenly got 5 6 downvotes on a 5-year-old, and well-upvoted answer (10k link) screenshot. After some hunting around...

There are just a few questions & answers needing to be voted down to 0 for automatic removal:

See this answer.

Seriously?

Surely there is a better way of doing this?

This kind of thing does not come across well as a user of the site. At first blush it looks like malicious sockpuppetry.

Now it just looks like I'm being penalized for some long-after-the-fact policy change, relating to a posting (i.e.: the question) that wasn't even mine.


downvotes

EDIT: Ha. Ha. Very funny:

Yes you are very clever


EDIT: I am not the only one affected by this:

Answered 4 years ago, then 2 downvotes in 2 days... weird... but why?

From here. That comment is 18 hours old at time of writing. On an answer that had just two upvotes.

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  • 34
    You even have the ability to vote to delete questions yourself, which the voters plainly ignored. Fun times.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:18
  • 11
    Oh wow. Am I seeing things? Seconds before I deleted the question, every one of the voters removed their downvotes one by one.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:27
  • 41
    No they didn't - I was curious about the number of delete votes that would've been required to remove the question without downvotes, and decided to take the lazy route to calculate it... At which point you made sure I had to do it the hard way anyway. @BoltClock
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:28
  • 4
    The answer probably shouldn't have been downvoted, but the question surely was being targeted for autoremoval, which in this case, might just be faster with 3 others voting for its deletion.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:29
  • 43
    ITT, Shog has the ability to clear votes from a post.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:29
  • 24
    @Mysticial: Shhhhhh! Don't let the revenge downvoters hear you.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:30
  • 27
    My account is glitched and I can actually remove upvotes from my posts. But for that you have to upvote it and let the upvote sit for a day. Promise.
    – user703016
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:32
  • 53
    The day when the legions of help vampires descend on Shog begging him to remove downvotes from their questions is the day I will die on the floor laughing.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:34
  • 8
    Regardless of the particular circumstances of my post, hopefully you guys can figure out a better system for the next poor sap. Because (if I understand what was supposed to happen correctly) unless there's enough folks to downvote-to-oblivion all at once, those downvotes just sit there for weeks. And so the people who cop it the worst are going to be the people with good questions/answers. Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:34
  • 79
    Breaking news: Mysticial found dead of laughter, four years in the past. Time-travelling vote-whiners blamed.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:52
  • 48
    I would have thought at least that before doing this, someone would post a comment to the answer saying "Hey, this question is off-topic but this answer is keeping the Roomba from doing its job. Would you delete it please?" The answer wasn't accepted, so you'd be able to do so. If someone were reluctant to delete an upvoted answer on an off-topic question, then perhaps look for the next way to address the situation. Starting off by just downvoting is just asinine, as it means the answerer (you) needs to go figure what the *&$# is happening. The courtesy fail on this is massive. Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 14:03
  • 18
    @T.J. Crowder: Surprised no one has retorted with "voters are not obligated to comment" or "there is no such thing as courtesy or humanness on Stack Overflow" yet.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 14:21
  • 3
    Of course, you're not the only one affected. I had this several times too, e.g. stackoverflow.com/q/13766551/1741542, stackoverflow.com/q/15390367/1741542, stackoverflow.com/q/14167082/1741542. I guess, you will find a lot more of this kind of serial downvoting, if you really want to invest your time. Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 14:43
  • 6
    Here is the edit where downvoting answers was suggested: meta.stackoverflow.com/revisions/303695/51 it was 3 days ago. Prior to that, questions where being downvoted, with no encouragement of downvoting answers. Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 15:45
  • 3
    @AndrewRussell - Thanks for bringing this up, because it is important. Users like yourself who create useful content by answering questions, solving problems, and helping other users are essential to the success here. Hopefully your negative experience leads to some change, and also does not prevent you from contributing in the future. We need more contributors like you here.
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 18:35

2 Answers 2

183

Yeah... This is unacceptable.

If you're downvoting questions because they're lazy / poorly-written / useless, more power to you.

If you're downvoting answers because they're lazy / poorly-written / wrong / useless, good on ya.

But blindly downvoting answers to avoid... retagging? That's just wrong. Voting to delete? The number of votes required to delete questions is capped at 10 - but in this case it would've only required three. Triggering automatic deletion?

This is why we can't have nice things

...Ah. An unfortunate side-effect of the current rules for automatic deletion are that they don't take into account when downvotes are cast. A question's answers can sit at +7 for years, but as soon as they get downvoted to <= 0 the question immediately qualifies for auto-deletion under one or more criteria. No need for 10K privileges, no rationing your delete votes, no concerns about having your name attached to the moderation you're doing...

Policing voting isn't really a solution here; it's hard, ethically-grey, and doesn't scale. If folks are doing this awkward dance as a more convenient way of voting to delete, we really only have two choices:

  1. Make voting to delete more convenient
  2. Make downvoting answers as a proxy for voting to delete questions less convenient

Guessing that giving folks with 125 rep the ability to delete questions with upvoted answers ain't gonna fly, so that just leaves #2: make questions with recent voting activity (on the question or answers) ineligible for auto-deletion for some hefty period of time.

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  • 34
    How long until people start piling on their downvotes now so they can delete this question later?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 4:52
  • 25
    Would basing the auto-delete criteria on a lack of upvotes instead of only the score work? So instead of score <= 0 we have something like score <=0 and upvotes <= 1 (or higher). I suspect this wouldn't change anything in the vast majority of cases, but it might prevent people from gaming the system to delete questions with upvoted answers. Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 5:54
  • 64
    3. Make tag burnination an SE staff duty like it used to be. Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 7:26
  • 13
    As one of the users (perhaps THE user?) called a "DICK", Shog, I'm chastised - and very willing to change - but also offended. The fact that the OP was able to point at a meta post discussing open community actions supporting clean-up of off-topic tags illustrates a desire to engage and conform with community views. Interesting to note that there was not even one comment on that post (or other similar burnination posts) to discuss "feeding the Roomba". Such conversation would have been most constructive before the name-calling.
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 15:46
  • 16
    I explicitly avoided calling anyone out, @Mogsdad. The behavior is the problem, not the people - that the system unintentionally encourages this behavior is the problem I propose to address. Note that no one owning these answers can see who downvoted them (much less why) - they can't exactly begin a conversation about "feeding the Roomba" unless someone lets them know that's what was happening.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 16:02
  • 9
    Which brings me back to #1 above, @durron597: this is a horribly awkward way of marking things for deletion, and there's a [delete] link right on the page - if everyone who'd downvoted had voted to delete (and most of them could have done so), it'd still have taken fewer votes and less time than it did... So what motivated the Rube Goldberg method?
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 16:57
  • 17
    @Shog9 In the case of third-party there were over 500 posts. In the case of source or source-code there were close to 2000. We only get so many delete votes per day, but we get a lot more downvotes per day. Plus people who don't have 10k want to help delete garbage. You say yourself that closure is just a precursor to deletion anyway... requests like this one haven't gotten a staff response.
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 17:11
  • 8
    Either closed questions should all eventually head down the trash chute or they shouldn't. Either closing is the precursor to deletion, or it isn't. When we try to stem the tide of garbage by preventing people from using off topic tags, we end up using any and all means available to us. The solution isn't to take away that power, the solution is to isolate the actual problem and change the system to address that. Feel free to ping me in SOCVR.
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 17:13
  • 10
    You're missing my point here, @durron597. There are well-defined paths to take questions from closure to deletion, and from closure to reopening - therefore closure serves its purpose as a sort of limbo. Expecting a question that takes years to be closed to be deleted in days is unrealistic; surely there should be a time for review, else what is the point? 3000 questions require at most 9000 delete votes, and in practice a lot fewer due to autodeletion; delete votes do not age away.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 17:37
  • 7
    Not really true, @durron597. The blanket prohibition on tool-rec questions is relatively new in terms of SO history; a lot of the rules and standards now in place arose organically over the course of years. Folks asked and answered questions in good faith... Then things changed. The 5-yr-old question that motivated this never had a single downvote or close vote before this month. I'm in chat, btw
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 18:02
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    unacceptable, yeah sure. You got to be f#cking kidding. Fastest-gun "games" polluting site with garbage are acceptable. Duplicate answers to popular questions are acceptable. Lemming upvotes to hot questions are not just acceptable - encouraged. Voting down answers to off-topic questions that barely managed to scrape handful votes in several years is... not. Yeah that's the way to go... off the top results in web search
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 19:29
  • 13
    So if you check the revision history, you'll see I didn't actually write "unacceptable" @gnat... Not that it probably helps your mood any. Unacceptable works just as well: given the mods currently spend a ridiculous amount of time policing rings of people who upvote posts for fraudulent ends, it's awful hard to argue this should be encouraged.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 20:35
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    The impression that I am getting from the folks behind this - after reading their chat - is that they intend to keep doing it, if at all possible (and simply 'try' to avoid doing it to +6 posts). As such, I fully support a technical solution that nerfs the roomba. Especially given the example I added to the OP, of someone with a +2 post getting weirded out by the same behaviour. -- People should also keep in mind that, to a user of the site, this kind of (pseudo-)moderation comes across as officially endorsed site policy. Most users are not well versed in what goes on in meta, myself included. Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 3:05
  • 7
    @bjb568 - There are quality questions asked every day. It is your problem if you cannot find them. Not everything here is crap, and that is a terrible view to hold of the site.
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 19:02
  • 7
    Oh, you wanna get technical? Then no, it's not impossible, @gnat - in fact, it's not even particularly uncommon for a group to use this exact technique to downvote competing answers, thus ensuring more views and more votes for those they favor without leaving an obvious trail of votes pointing back at themselves. So once again, we're back to intent: are we moderating based on patterns, or... who can tell the best story?
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 20:14
85

Before I say anything else:

Mea culpa.

Even though I am not one of the 6 downvotes on this answer, this is my fault. (I am the original author of that cleanup status post). I have personally encouraged this sort of behavior in the past, been told to stop (and have personally stopped), but failed to properly educate my friends to not resort to this sort of behavior on highly upvoted answers.

As a Room owner of SO Close Vote Reviewers, I feel personally responsible for this behavior and I will (and have already) take steps to ensure this does not happen again.

All that said:

  • No one here appears to be arguing that the question is on topic. In fact, the very first thing that happened after this Meta post was made was for the question under discussion to be mod deleted.
  • When a question is deleted by the roomba, all reputation loss for the downvotes is immediately refunded.

Again, I completely agree that large, organized voting efforts for deletion of old questions is bad. But I also think that changing the roomba rules is a harsh overreaction, especially when we know exactly who the people are that are doing this, and groups of people doing this happen extremely infrequently. It's not many groups of people are doing this all over the site. We made a mistake here, absolutely no question. But we can fix it, @Shog already has fixed it, and we can educate the people doing it (who do listen) to stop doing it.

Please give me a chance to handle this on my end before making it significantly more difficult for our well intentioned cleanup efforts to proceed. I have created a pin to begin the effort of explaining this to the users of our chatroom.

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    This is a great answer, but just a quick note to one of your points: "When a question is deleted by the roomba, all reputation loss for the downvotes is immediately refunded." From what I gather, the post was at +7 before this all happened, and it sounds like it was an old post. If the downvoting hadn't happened, it sounds like the post would have qualified to keep the rep from upvotes too. So just having the rep loss from downvotes being refunded is not a great thing here, because the OP loses more that way from reverted upvotes, now that the post is scored below 3.
    – Kendra
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 14:11
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    @Kendra No, because reputation gained more than 60 days ago is preserved no matter what.
    – durron597
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 14:12
  • 31
    @durron597 only if the post has a score three or above when deleted. Also this doesn't consider future rep gains from the answer.
    – user000001
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 14:15
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    @T.J.Crowder From meta.stackexchange.com/a/5222: (Exception: Reputation earned for posts with a score of three or higher, and where the post has been visible on the site for at least 60 days, is retained).
    – user000001
    Commented Sep 29, 2015 at 14:20
  • 3
    FWIW, there is a way to drop answers to zero without inflicting a rep loss on the answerer, but it does take 50% more voters. Let k be the answer's score. Give the answer k/4 upvotes and 5k/4 downvotes. k/4-5k/4 = -k so the score drops to zero, and 10k/4-2*5k/4 = 0, so the rep is unchanged. For k%4 != 0, give it an extra upvote so the answerer has a nett rep gain rather than a nett loss.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 12:03
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    Actually, it might be nice to give all these answers, including the k%4 == 0 ones some nett rep gain: it's not the answerer's fault that their answer is attached to a question that's now deemed OT. And give them some advance notice (via a comment), in case they want to save what they may consider to be valuable content that they posted to SO in good faith.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 12:06
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    @PM2Ring any upvotes would be lost when the question is deleted as you only keep the rep after 60 days. Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:08
  • 2
    @NathanOliver: Ah, right. And I guess that 60 days is a bit long for a busy clean-up squad to wait. :)
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:10
  • 2
    @PM2Ring WRT advance notice - There's a 4+ yr-old request for automatic notification along those lines, "Send authors an inbox message if their question gets closed". If that were implemented, the answerer in this case could have had time to take action to update the question to conform to current standards.
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 16:15
  • 3
    @Mogsdad it's likely that notifications won't work and meta will still be filled with whining. I just noticed - OP here has been watching votes going on their post for about 10 days and they did nothing. All they will do is sit, wait and whie
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 30, 2015 at 21:28
  • 2
    @gnat - Speaking of whining. Why even come here and kibitz like this? You aren't even a contributor (last post was from 2013). Perhaps you should stick to the exchange you are active on instead of making broad assumptions on others. "OP" Andrew Russell is an important and frequent contributor here.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 1, 2015 at 6:17
  • 2
    @TravisJ observe that answer discussed here is 5 years old, and that main concern of this meta discussion is about old posts. I am trying to learn here how to maintain my old posts at SO, fair enough? (on a side note, I suspect that "contribution" doesn't quite mean what you think it means)
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 1, 2015 at 20:51
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    @gnat When you say I "did nothing", what exactly do you expect me to do? Especially 10 days prior? A single downvote with no explanation is just noise. It seems 5 downvotes in a row is where I am actually bothered enough to poke around for the cause. --- I am certainly not here to whine. I am here to give some constructive criticism about something dumb "the site" is doing. A careful reading of the OP will reveal this (hint: what am I suggesting needs fixing?) Commented Oct 3, 2015 at 14:22
  • 4
    @gnat Those seem like reasonable responses where (A) the user is concerned about preserving rep, and (B) the downvotes are occurring naturally, based on the post's content. But neither of those is the case here. Commented Oct 4, 2015 at 0:34
  • 2
    @gnat - That post was obviously the wrong one. Please see the official response to that meta.stackoverflow.com/a/255861/1026459 which is no, it is not helpful. It is even expanded on in another answer meta.stackoverflow.com/a/255805/1026459 . If you think that is helping, you need to change the way you vote. Clearly from your voting history, these posts address behavior that you exhibit so please take some time to read and evaluate the outlook on this site.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 5, 2015 at 19:33

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