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It was announced today that: "The Internet Explorer team is excited to announce that web-development support is moving to Stack Overflow."

Well, that is exciting. Questions though:

  • A lot of questions that would be appropriate for a support site are not appropriate for SO. Presumably the previous discussions on this problem are still applicable?

  • Is this an official partnership? I'm guessing not as there would probably be an announcement about it here, so can someone 'reach out' to Microsoft and suggest that they might want to clarify what types of questions should be asked on SO, rather than inviting all questions be asked.

  • Am I tripping? Seriously, one of the largest software companies in the world is pointing its customers who want support to an external website that it doesn't control?

Previous discussions sampling: Why we're not customer support for [your favorite company], Third-party development support: hosted by Stack Overflow, Reach out to Instagram about outsourcing their customer support to Stack Overflow etc.

Exhibit A for an inappropriate question, that the asker has been lead to believe is appropriate to ask.

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    Funny how you can't downvote or comment on that post. Dear Jonathan Sampson: can you please not Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 3:43
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    Oh dear - another big company (un)intentionally diverting dross in the direction of Stack Overflow, and it's already started here. I wish they'd all be clearer about what is appropriate to send our way.
    – user1864610
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 3:58
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    "Am I tripping? Seriously, one of the largest software companies in the world is pointing its customers who want support to an external website that it doesn't control?" And that same company just open sourced an entire application framework it's held near and dear to its own OS for years?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 4:17
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    Beware: if they can't build something as good as x, they buy x. Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 10:29
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    @SalmanA That's the most horrifying part of this.
    – Boann
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 11:47
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    I read the blog post. Seems like they understand the ethos. It remains to be seen if they do keep up with related tags.
    – user1228
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 17:36
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    Don't dismiss the urge that many MSFT teams feel to get as far away as possible from the MSDN forums. Which has everything that's bad about forums that you can think of. And more, exceedingly buggy software and a drastically low Google rank due to the uncontrolled spam. Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 20:18
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    @HansPassant not to mention a) wrong answers, b) irrelevant non-answers by MSFT employees and c) forcibly marking random responses to unanswered questions as the "answer" because the question is old and its embarrassing how many unresolved questions they have on their support forum. Of course, these are actually reasons why their users have been running away from the MSDN forums. Commented Nov 27, 2014 at 10:08
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    Yup, Microsoft puts a lot of emphasis on measuring performance. That however has been the death-knell for the MSDN forums, they are not very good at detecting when the numbers get cooked to make the reports look good. Commented Nov 27, 2014 at 10:22
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    FWIW Spring did the same.
    – musiKk
    Commented Nov 27, 2014 at 10:48
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    LinkedIn did the same a couple days ago: Stacking Up API Support at LinkedIn, apparently without causing as much sensation at meta.SO.
    – user3717023
    Commented Nov 28, 2014 at 2:19

5 Answers 5

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I wanted to chime in and try to answer some of the questions being asked, as well as ensure everybody that my goal is not to harm the quality of information on Stack Overflow in any way - I've been a long-time user/contributor/moderator, and have only the best intentions.

A lot of questions that would be appropriate for a support site are not appropriate for SO.

Possibly, but the Web Development forum that we decided to close should not provide too many instances of this. In the announcement I shared a link to the Stack Overflow tour; my expectation is that people coming to Stack Overflow will learn, and play by, the Stack Overflow rules. We've seen enormous success here keeping discussion/hashing in the comments, and solutions in the answers. I don't expect this to be a problem for engineers coming from MSDN.

Is this an official partnership?

While we have official relationships with Stack Overflow (we sponsor the Internet Explorer tag, for instance) this particular gesture was unrelated to any official partnership. We simply went the way many before us have gone, including the YouTube API, Windows Azure, OneDrive Development, etc.

...can someone 'reach out' to Microsoft and suggest that they might want to clarify what types of questions should be asked on SO, rather than inviting all questions be asked.

We aren't inviting all questions; we specifically chose the "Web Development" forum as our target. The questions asked therein will be web-development related. If they're not, they'll be handled appropriately by the Stack Overflow community.

Am I tripping? Seriously, one of the largest software companies in the world is pointing its customers who want support to an external website that it doesn't control?

You're not tripping. We also host code on GitHub, open-source many products, contribute to open-source projects, file bugs for competing browsers, and more ;)

Dear Jonathan Sampson: can you please not...

Why would you not want more developers contributing to the general body of knowledge here on Stack Overflow? Seemed like a good idea to me.

I read the blog post. Seems like they understand the ethos. It remains to be seen if they do keep up with related tags.

We do understand the distinctions between the two communities. In fact, for anybody on my team that wants to brush up on Stack Overflow, I'm going to personally deliver a training internally on it next week. Our goal is to contribute positive effort into this community - I will personally be involved from here on out.

I wonder if it might be better to have a new dedicated network site for this in the long run.

I don't think this would be a good idea. The forum we are closing is the Web Development in Internet Explorer forum. The types of questions asked in there are already being asked on Stack Overflow. By closing the MSDN forum we reduce the redundancy on the web, and encourage a community of very talented engineers to contribute to an even superior platform - Stack Overflow.

I think having the Internet Explorer team monitoring questions/answers and providing their expert advice/answers is a benefit to the community.

I do too - our team has a deep and intimate working knowledge of not only our browser, but browsers and web-standards in general.

As an example, I happened upon a cross-browser interop bug yesterday on Stack Overflow and proceeded to reduce it to a fiddle that I could share with a team member. Within seconds of looking at the fiddle, the team member identified exactly what the root of the cause was, noted that it was a regression, stated the difference between how we do it and how Chrome does it, and suggested a simple work-around. That is not the type of knowledge you'll find with your average web-developer, but it is the type of information you can expect from browser-engineers themselves.

I am excited about seeing fewer "Ugh. IE. FML." responses, and more responses from people who have an intimate working knowledge of what is actually happening, and can give a real solution to obscure problems.

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    Thanks for the answer. I still think having a clearer description of where bug reports, feature requests and other types of questions should be sent to on the page that links to SO would be helpful. "In the announcement I shared a link to the Stack Overflow tour" almost no one reads instructions like that when they have a problem they need to solve. Instructions only get read after they have submitted a poor quality question, or when people discover SO without an urgent need to fix a problem.
    – Danack
    Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 20:23
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    @Danack I've updated the MSDN post with links to those resources.
    – Sampson
    Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 20:26
  • poke see Is the SO link on Modern.IE officially approved? – dat unclear instruction...
    – user1228
    Commented Apr 1, 2015 at 16:17
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Please note that Jonathan Sampson is no stranger to SO and knows very well the limits of topicality. Probably he forgot that not all the people who will read that announcement do.

Also, that they aren't outsourcing their support.

Many of us on the Internet Explorer team have been using Stack Overflow for years, and are committed to watching incoming questions very closely, offering timely support, and actively maintaining the Internet Explorer tag itself.

What they are effectively outsourcing is the Q&A platform. Which is a good idea. I tried MS Forums, but they weren't as good as either the newsgroups they replaced or SO. Pouring resources (in this case MS employees to answer questions) into the superior system is the right choice, IMO. And SO benefits from the increased traffic and answers.

Finally, notice that IS a sponsored tag. So there is an official relationship.

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    I suppose the IE section is already crap. Now the garbage from the MSDN forums is going to, uh... overflow on to SO, even more than it already has. No thanks. Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 3:45
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    @Qix: Huh? I'm referring to usability problems of the MS Forums website, not the questions there. And SO users will still be able to close garbage, just as we do every day.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 3:47
  • Have you seen the MSDN forums? The most mind numbing crap gets posted there. We already have an army of new users who do not read the How to Ask guides and such; I highly doubt users migrating over to SO from MSDN are going to either. Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 3:48
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    @Qix: The most mind-numbing garbage gets posted to SO too. We have the tools to get rid of it. MSDN forums don't. So don't mistake more garbage sticking around there for a high percentage of garbage originally. If SO has 30% garbage questions, that's after moderation cleaned up an order of magnitude more. If MSDN has 80% garbage, that's how much was actually posted there.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 3:51
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    @Qix Feel free to add IE related tags to your ignore list.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 19:07
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I'm a little scared of this, at a glance.

SO questions can already get rough at times. In the short term I am interested to see if this brings in new, interesting users and content, and to observe and see how it goes. But, I wonder if it might be better to have a new dedicated network site for this in the long run (after some observation for a while, of course).


Another thought I want to add is a concern over the interaction in the "Exhibit A" example given above (screenshot for those of you under 10K).

Regardless of whether or not it is felt that this was on-topic, the reaction to that is concerning primarily because the OP was led to asking that question here, and expectations set by the IEDC post were not met. Mismatched expectations are a significant source of conflict in general. There will certainly be some "culture shock" for incoming users to deal with and it's probably best to resolve all feelings about these types of questions now before it starts, so that at the very least our community can have a consistent reaction (inconsistency is another source of conflict). There is potential for great hostility there.

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    "I wonder if it might be better to have a new dedicated network site" This is my instinct as well - not just for this case, but all cases where companies are saying "go to SO for support".
    – Danack
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 3:57
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    The OP of that question isn't exactly new to Stack Overflow. Their attitude is inexcusable.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 4:43
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    @BoltClock Sure; but I believe that the "culture shock" concern is still valid. When a better example pops up, I will replace. I hypothesize that a similar situation with a new user will occur in the near future. We're going to have to decide which side to prefer before this starts.
    – Jason C
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 4:45
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    I forgot that Exhibit A came from the question. I agree with your hypothesis - I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 4:46
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    Fun fact: the company I work for about a year ago rolled out a new version of its own public support site, which has nothing directly to do with SE, was coded from scratch internally and is hosted internally, but is very clearly inspired by SE principles and has a moderately similar UI. :) Seems like that would probably be more the way to go, unless of course what you were hoping for was free support by an existing userbase on an external site, so you didn't have to care about your own support at all. >.>
    – neminem
    Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 16:59
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    @neminem A lot of the answers posted on MSDN forums were from other users not MSFT employees. My observations from the .net boards were that the latter generally only responded to questions that were still unanswered after a day or two. Other than the MSDN forums having a larger scope in some areas for valid questions than web development on SO does, I don't see anything inherently wrong with trying to send a lot of their questions here instead, presuming they continue to provide 2nd tier answering. What they intend to do with the subset of questions we don't want is a more pressing problem. Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 18:44
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Microsoft moving their support to Stack Overflow is not an “official” partnership. Yes, they do run banner ads with us and sponsor their tags, but that is an advertising commitment, not a partnership.

Microsoft is not the first company to move their support to Stack Overflow or link to our sites from their support pages. Here are just a few examples:

Google: https://developers.google.com/maps/support/ and others

Phalcon: http://phalconphp.com/en/support

Mozilla: http://www.stackoverflow.com/r/mozilla

Sony: https://developer.sony.com/support/

I think the takeaway from this announcement is that companies realize the power of the Stack Overflow community and want to provide support where their customers are looking for it.

As our mission is to make the Internet a better place to get expert answers to your questions, I think having the Internet Explorer team monitoring questions/answers and providing their expert advice/answers is a benefit to the community.

We make every effort to ensure that companies provide guidelines on their support pages, but we can’t make sure that every visitor to their site follows the rules.

I’ll discuss this further with the community team and see if we can determine some best practices to share.

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    Tim's best practices seem like a great place to start: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253849/… , and I think he codified that into an entry in the Help Center: stackoverflow.com/help/product-support . I've pointed a few people at those.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 19:09
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    Perfect! My team will point companies to those links. I'll reach out to the IE team immediately.
    – Danny Miller Staff
    Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 19:12
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    Thanks for reaching out to us, @DannyMiller. We'll continue to explore ways in which we can ensure the smoothest transition possible.
    – Sampson
    Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 19:42
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Jonathan made it very clear in his announcement:

Feature requests should still be routed through http://uservoice.modern.ie. Bugs and issues will continue to be filed online at http://connect.microsoft.com/IE.

These are the biggest concerns to doing these kinds of 'offloaded support' deals: that meta issues end up on main content channels. But they seem to have their bases covered. In fact, the only questions that should be coming here are questions that would have been coming to the channel they're closing. The meta topics should have been going down the meta channels they were before.

He was a SO moderator for a number of years. I doubt he's forgotten what kinds of questions belong on SO and what one's don't. They're already moderating the tags, and if this is their official move, I personally have faith they will continue to monitor those tags. (Although, admittedly, it would be easy to say you'll monitor them and just let the community go to work on those questions. SO certainly has a vibrant enough community to absorb them.) I have confidence that the meta issues that would have been moderated via their old solution will continue to be handled by those same people, it will just be on SO instead of their old channel.

The biggest hurdle I see is SO-ifiying the existing userbase. When I look through the old content, I don't see a Q&A site, I see a forum. Discussions. The information exchange occurs differently on SO by design, and it will take some time for battle-hardened users to adjust to that change. But this is no different than the multitudes of existing new users we get from other sources: they just need patience and some close votes when necessary.

In another important note... the existing forum they're using has a little over 16k posts in 7 years. That's 6-7 posts per day. The tag has an average of 17 posts a day over the past year, and that doesn't count ones that perhaps use without the generic tag. In other words, Stack Overflow is already at least 2.5 times more active than the channel they're closing.

I'm seeing a lot of pros (more active expert answers attracting more expert questions and more real world problems of real life developers getting solved) and honestly very few cons. When I look at all the facts in perspective, I don't see what the worry is.

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    "Jonathan made it very clear in his announcement" That was added after the discussion here.
    – Danack
    Commented Nov 27, 2014 at 23:35
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    Even so, I think the scope of the 'integration' was rather exaggerated.
    – corsiKa
    Commented Nov 28, 2014 at 5:14

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