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The question:

I recently found a question with a terrible title, hard-to-read code, and a confusing problem description. It was two hours old at the time I read it, and there had already been a discussion in the comments between the original poster and a pair of high-rep users trying to understand exactly what the problem was.

An hour after the others had stopped trying, I read over the post, figured out what the poster's actual problem was, and posted a solution that has since been accepted. Based on that, I then edited the question to clean up the title, format the code so it was clear where the issue was, and reword the question to explain what the problem was and what the desired fix should do.

In my opinion, it's now a pretty good question. It earned four downvotes over the first two hours, prior to my edits and answer, but I think it's the type of thing someone else might be able to find and benefit from if they run into the same thing.

My question is, should I upvote it? Obviously I'm now biased towards thinking it is "useful and clear". But it didn't show research effort, and the clarity only came after the fact from an external source. So do I upvote the question based on its merits as they exist now, or leave it alone?

To put it another way, does upvoting a question I consider to be useful and clear matter more than potentially encouraging a new user to post poor-quality questions?


The answers so far (10/30/2014):

YES - you put in a lot of time and effort to make the edits, and whether that was because you are psychologically incapable of leaving things well enough alone, or because you genuinely thought that someone else would be able to read it and find use, if you've gotten this far you should go ahead and upvote it.

YES - voting is meant to be on the question itself, and who edited what doesn't matter. If the question you see on the page is useful, upvote it. From ivarni: "Votes shouldn't be around to penalize people but to rate the content on the screen."

YES - upvoting will make future searchers more likely to find and/or view the question, which is the whole point of building a knowledge base like SO. Note: Ben Voigt pointed out that Google search is capable of evaluating votes.

NO - awarding reputation to a user who wrote a bad question is a bad idea, since it might make them more likely to keep posting bad questions and assume others will fix them. Rebuttal: editing, commenting, and other forms of communications can alleviate this.

NO - upvoting the question might prevent things like the question ban algorithm from recognizing a bad user.

WHO CARES - it's just one vote (though if you activate the Meta Effect, it might turn into more: before being referenced here, it had four downvotes. As of now, it has received two additional downvotes and ten upvotes, and I haven't voted yet).

WHO CARES - voting is your decision, not something others should dictate.


My own thought:

Upvote. I was leaning towards this anyway, and the opinions shared in the comments and answers given so far seem to tilt in this direction. The question is more important than the asker, and if their asking skills are poor enough to eventually trip something like a question ban, that will make itself evident in time. On the other hand editing, commenting, and even upvoting (after making it clear that the upvote is because the 'new' question) might drive home the point even further - moving from negative four to positive five after they saw their question edited will show them how important that edit was in the trajectory of the question.

I'm going to go cast my symbolic vote now.

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  • 7
    Yes, you can upvote the question. Since it is understandable and can be helpful for others right now.
    – Gunaseelan
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:13
  • 35
    It's your vote; you can use it however you want. How anyone here would vote isn't how you need to vote.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:14
  • 1
    In cases similar to your example, where its a new user, if I felt the question itself had merit (ignoring the bad presentation), then personally I would upvote. A new user who asks a decent question is to be encouraged - they'll learn about the presentation. Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:27
  • 3
    @JonEgerton Everything that has been described here indicates that they didn't ask a decent question. They asked a very poor question. We don't want to encourage people to ask poor questions. When you encourage people for asking poor questions, you continue to get more poor questions. We want to encourage them to ask quality questions. What is described here is a question that is entirely unclear, poorly researched, lacking in sufficient information to be answerable, and also poorly presented.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:29
  • 1
    Which, @Servy, might actually be a better way of describing my quandary: does upvoting a question I consider to be useful and clear matter more than potentially encouraging a new user to post poor-quality questions?
    – AHiggins
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:34
  • @AHiggins Sure. That, too, is something you need to decide for yourself. Considering that people in the same situation can find your answer equally effectively regardless of the score of the question, I personally place very little value on the former.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:36
  • @Servy: I did say "If I felt the question itself had merit". Where it doesn't then you're absolutely right! I was talking more about being forgiving about new users asking good questions without finesse rather than the usual "can you write my code plz". Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:38
  • 1
    @JonEgerton If a question is poorly researched, entirely unclear, lacking sufficient information to be answerable, and requires multiple users making quite a lot of comments over an extended period of time to finally figure out what is actually being asked then that is very clearly not a good question. A question can be good if it has superficial presentation issues that don't impact the ability of the question to be understood or answered. That is obviously not the case here.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:42
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    @Servy: Stop it. I'm agreeing with you! Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 15:43
  • 5
    I vote based on wether or not I find a question useful in its current state. I wouldn't put much weight on the revision history. IMO the goal of the votes is to promote QAs that can be useful for other people who comes around later. Votes shouldn't be around to penalize people but to rate the content on the screen. Why care about what revision 1 looked like or who edited it when it's the current revision that's being shown and the content that eventually matters?
    – ivarni
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 16:01
  • 1
    @ivarni To answer your rhetorical question, because it encourages the question author for posting a low quality question and is rewarding them for the effort put in by the editors that are the ones that actually turned the question into something reasonable. This is only going to encourage them to post more low quality questions in the future and to learn that no matter how bad their question is, other people will just fix it for them and they will be rewarded as a result.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 16:19
  • 2
    @Servy OR it could teach them that a bad question gets DVed with a vengeance while a good question doesn't. They might even look at the revision history and think "Oh, so that's how I should have done it" and then ask a better question the next time around.
    – ivarni
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 16:23
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    @ivarni But why would they bother if they learn that other people will just spend all of that time on their behalf. If other people are willing to do all of your work for you there is no incentive to do it yourself.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 16:25
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    @sgroves The votes matter for more than just the rep though. For example, they are taken into consideration by the question ban algorithm. A user continually providing low quality content without improving should be banned, but if they end up with a lot of upvotes for their very low quality contributions they will end up being able to continually post these questions that are very draining on the community. That, unlike the Imaginary Internet Points, matters quite a bit.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:35
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    Which, @Servy, is the argument for not upvoting on question merits alone: it could lead to poor content on the site by potentially encouraging users to continue bad habits, and it could delay or even prevent the kind of automated filter that would stop the users. So does the potential downfall (bad future content) outweigh the benefit of letting the community users and robots know that a question is worth looking at?
    – AHiggins
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:55

4 Answers 4

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I've done this many times - I think it's important to vote on the content as it appears, not as it was.

As a side bonus, if the author rolls back your edit you can then downvote, causing a rather dramatic change to the score immediately if the post warrants it.

And by the way, I'm not saying that because I think it's great to be able to hold a big axe over the heads of the poor sap whose post you're editing. As appealing as that can be in some situations. I'm saying that because that's how voting really works! There are effectively three different votes you can give a post you're looking at: Up, Down, and... Meh. Meh == "I don't care enough to vote at all". Meh is far and away the most common type of vote. Every time you see a post and don't vote, you're voting "Meh" - you're saying, "I don't have an opinion of this post's quality and usefulness".

Now, think about that for a minute: you just spent x amount of time editing this post. You did a really great job of cleaning it up, transforming it into something that you think will be clear and useful to others... And at the end of that, you're still thinking of voting "Meh"? It's primarily your own work you're voting on now - you're gonna say you don't have an opinion on it? You don't know if anyone else will find it useful or clear? You don't care if anyone else ever looks at it?

Hell no! That time you spent editing says two things about your opinion of the post:

  1. You thought it was crap.
  2. You thought it could be made into something useful.

So let your vote reflect that! Don't worry about the original author - if you did a good job editing, you've demonstrated to him what countless comments, meta posts, Help Center topics and painfully-long HOWTO guides could never hope to: how to ask a proper question. You couldn't do more to help him if you sat down at his keyboard and physically typed out his next question while he babbled semi-coherently in the background. If you were honestly worried about doing too much to help, then you're long past the point where that concern has become irrelevant - all you're doing by withholding your vote now is cutting off your own nose to spite someone else's face.

MichaelT goes into more detail on how voting can affect the future of the post within our system and potentially others; that might be worth keeping in mind as well... But even if you don't care to think about it (and frankly, most of the time I don't) you should at least care enough about the work you've put in to be honest about it.

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    In what way is a downvote on the question hiding the content from the people that are searching for the answer?
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:06
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    Score affects order of search results, @Servy. More importantly, not editing a poorly-written question affects search results.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:30
  • @Servy Google might like to devaluate such questions and prefer giving out results with higher question score. Also, if the answer isn't upvoted, the Roomba might come sooner than answer upvotes. Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:30
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    @JanDvorak I would strongly suspect that Google wouldn't be looking at a questions score when ranking results. SO search can, sure, but not Google, and Google is, by a significant margin, where people come from to find answers.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:31
  • @Shog9 I'm certainly not advocating not editing the post.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:32
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    @JanDvorak Google has a significant impact on SE, SE doesn't really have a significant impact on Google. I'd be very surprised for them to go out of their way to specialize their SEO algorithm just for the sake of SO/SE questions to better rank their content among themselves. The first major barrier is that I just wouldn't expect Google to care that much about just one set, but even if they got past that there's the fact that you can't really use the score when comparing the SO question against non-SO content.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:37
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    Perhaps that paragraph was a bit of a red herring, @Servy - I've replaced it with a much larger fish.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:02
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    @Shog9 I certainly agree with your logic on the basis of purely what a vote conceptually represents and given it's intended use. The problem that I have with that logic is that it ignores the actual effect that it has on the real world. The actual effects that the vote you cast has on the world are another basis to make this decision, one that greatly changes the decision process.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:09
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    Upvoting the content is your way of saying that you think the post is not a good post that people should read, but the actual effect of that vote has a rather small (but granted, non-zero) effect on whether or not people will actually read it. That vote has other effects though, such as very plausibly encouraging users to continue posting low quality content, and preventing automated tools such as the question ban algorithm from effectively determining the value of a user's contributions. That, at a minimum, makes this decision more complex than you're making it out to be.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:11
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    The actual effects that your vote have pale in comparison to those of everyone else who might vote in the future, @Servy. If you don't want folks up-voting a question, then spending your time to make it look beautiful is... really the wrong way to go about that. So is answering the question, for that matter. If you're at the point where you've done everything else possible to make a question as useful as it can be, and now you're worried that the author might get rep or encouragement from it... You've really screwed up quite badly. Or you're just being dishonest. Don't be dishonest.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:12
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    @Shog9 Your first sentence is certainly true of any moderately popular question. It's a lot less true in less populated tags/sites in which your vote can very likely make up a very large percentage of the total votes (quite plausably even 100%). And additionally, going to, "it doesn't matter what you do" is quite a lot different from, "unquestionably upvote". As for the rest, I certainly agree that it's a problem with my last argument, it's why I consider the answer to this question to be a very complex and difficult decision, rather than just a snap upvote without much consideration.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:16
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    It's not that difficult, @Servy - deciding whether or not to edit is difficult. That's a non-trivial amount of precious, precious time that I'm giving away, in the hope that it'll benefit the community that I love and the knowledge that it'll benefit someone I know nothing about. Deciding whether to answer is difficult, for the same reason. Those are hard, hard decisions, and no one has the right to make them for you or to imply that they aren't going to involve at least some soul-searching... But once you've made them, given that time, turned someone's question into your own… Voting is easy.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:21
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    That's a false dichotomy, @Servy. You're providing feedback by editing. And how the system interprets any of this can and does change. But if you're gonna worry about the system, consider that one of the hardest problems we face is in trying to categorize questions automatically based on content - and the absolute worst thing you can do for that system is to not upvote good posts.
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:38
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    @Shog9 Are you asserting that if a user regularly posts very low quality posts, but their posts are edited into good questions by other users after lengthy comment discussions and then upvoted that the user is likely to end up question banned due to providing consistently low quality contributions? Somehow I just wouldn't expect the question ban algorithm to be that good.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 18:46
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    @Servy: Google does take scores into account, not by having SO-specific code, but because SO reports metadata in the HTML according to a google-recognized format. That lets Google share the same logic between SO, quora, yahoo answers, etc.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 20:57
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As always, vote on the question and not the history. Aside from your edit being there as opposed to someone else's, people don't go and click 'history' and read all that before voting on it.

The value of the vote drives a number of other aspects to the system. Yes, it influences question and answer bans. Yes, it gives and takes away rep from the person who started the post. But it also helps serve in the related questions (if you are looking for an answer, do you click on a +10 in the related questions? or a -2?), search relevance and the like.

Yes, you are 'helping' the OP of the post get more rep. But you are also helping all the other people coming to the question. It will serve as a better example of a question (and they should be shown that better presented questions get up votes), and for people searching for the material it makes it easier to find.

So yes, look at the mouseover for up vote and consider if the question, in its current state, is worth of such a vote and act accordingly.

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    How does the score of the question have any influence on the discover ability of the answer for people searching for the content?
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:05
  • the idea is you know the question is not crappy, nonsensical, poorly written.
    – Fattie
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:08
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    @JoeBlow Which you would only be determining after you've already found the answered question, meaning it doesn't impact the ability of people to find the content, contrary to your post.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:09
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    @Servy it appears to affect the ranking in the 'relevance' search within the standard SO search tool. It also appears to be present in the sidebar 'relevance' selection criteria and the Questions that may already have your answer portion when asking a question.
    – user289086
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:10
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    And personally, I'm not sure I have ever clicked on a negative-vote question in a sidebar.
    – AHiggins
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:21
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    @AHiggins when you get 3k rep, you may finding yourself poking those questions to see "is this something that should be closed?" But the essential point there is one of "if the question is now something useful that other people would find useful, advertise it as such." Part of the advertisement is the up vote that helps other systems. Furthermore, people are more likely to answer higher scoring questions. There are a number of feedback loops with votes that can be beneficial to people asking, answering, and looking for an answer. Having the vote match the content helps all these groups.
    – user289086
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 17:25
  • MichaelT, I agree with you. It's more important to me that someone else be able to find the question in the end and recognize it as worth reading than it is to use the existence of a vote to influence a user towards behaviors and patterns that I want. Commenting and editing, as @shog9 pointed out, will be more effective in reaching a user that would be willing to make a change, and a downvote or upvote on a single one of their questions isn't likely to seriously change their overall experience on the site.
    – AHiggins
    Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 19:12
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If the question as it currently is is useful and clear, then feel free to upvote. It's your vote after all. It's fine even if it was you who made it upvote-worthy.

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  • Thanks for your answer, and for the edit you just made to the original question - I didn't know how to link straight to a comment, but just found it after you demonstrated it was possible.
    – AHiggins
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 16:17
  • You're welcome. Another tip: if someone has edited a post, you can ping them by manually typing @their-username on the edited post.
    – Scimonster
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 16:21
  • Again, thank you - I'd started doing that, but no autocomplete showed up so I figured it had to be on something you had written or commented on.
    – AHiggins
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 16:22
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I would think less about the author/reputation and more about the question.

Do you want people to see this question (in search results, for instance) and regard it as a quality question? If so, you should upvote it.

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