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Two years ago, for the first time in my life, I started to work at a small company as a programmer. I was an amateur programmer, and I thought a forum like Stack Overflow would be a great help for me. I know two years ago my questions were too easy for experts in the community, and they would usually downvote them, with the excuse that I didn't show any effort, or I didn't provide enough information for my question.

Two years ago I asked this question:

When I open my crystal report files from vb6 my report show me this error message and crush:General SQL SERVER Error I really don't know why I receive this error.

For this question I recieved nothing but a comment: "Many things may cause that error" and after almost 15 minutes I received almost 8 downvotes, and I had no choice but to remove my question. Several days later, I found myself that whenever Crystal Reports throws an exception, it creates a log file, and the log file explains the error.

The community behavior on this question was unpleasant for me. As a newbie, I expected they would willingly tell me about the error log, but it's too sad, it seems that when the community members have nothing to give, they cannot just leave the question for someone that can help; instead they click the downvote button. My question was not "give me source code for quick sort algorithm in Pascal".

Finally I got banned from Stack Overflow, feeling bad, like I am an idiot or not welcome. I registered at other forums while I was still a bad question asker, and what I found there was amazing. They accepted me, they taught me how to ask good questions, all kinds of questions were welcome in their communities, and they treated me like a valuable member.

After two years of having fun in other forums and getting addicted, logging in to my account every day, I decided to check my Stack Overflow account. I found that I'm no longer banned from asking questions, but it seems this place didn't change at all.

Now I don't ask many questions. Mostly I read other questions for my personal training, but it's really painful for me when I see the community behavior with newbies when I compare Stack Overflow with other forums. It's really sad when you read that even the creator called newbie question askers "vampires".

After all, Stack Overflow is a programming forum, not a reference book or wiki. You shouldn't expect content to be only posted once and work for everybody in all situations. Stack Overflow is also not the only programming forum in the world. I like it, but I really cannot enjoy it; I'm tired of seeing:

  • Marked as duplicate => downvote
  • This question is off topic => downvote
  • Polls and asking for suggestions are not allowed => downvote

I accept that it's good to keep the site clean, but it seems that the community are wasting their good energy for some highly restrictive rules. To be honest, Stack Overflow for me looks more like a prison rather than a programming forum. Whenever I ask a new question, I ask with fear.

For example in this post I suggested a feature that we click on an image we see it in a new window with higher resolution, and I referred to a question that contained an attached image. Community reaction shocked me so bad: they attacked the referred question and gave the post plenty of downvotes because it included an image. But I wanted to suggest a new feature; they forget main purpose of my post.

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    After all, SO is a programming forum No, its not. In a forum open discussion(s) are allowed, and even encouraged, including general opinions. SO is a QA site with answers to specific programming problems/issues. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:27
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    SO is not meant to be a programming forum; it is indeed trying to be more of a reference book or wiki. It's a common misconception. Your feedback about having a negative experience is well taken, and I'm sorry you were made feel bad. That's indeed a problem and it would be great if it could be avoided. However, SO gets some 8,000 new questions every day, many of which are duplicates and off-topic. Consider the possibility that rigid rules are the only way to handle that massive amount of content.
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:28
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    Stack Overflow is not a forum. Actually, it is attempting to be a "reference book" of sorts, only by using real-world situations from many, many people. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:28
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    Additionally, please don't confuse "too easy" with "poorly asked" when it comes to questions. There are plenty of questions which are easy (when you know the answer) but which can be asked about well.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:31
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    You really shouldn't take downvotes personally as that is not what it is meant to convey. DV's on Meta just mean that people disagree with you, DV's on SO mean that the question is missing something fundamentally or is asked in such a way that is too broad or would require opinion based answers which are not really answers at all. I really appreciate what you're saying here because I have seen and continue to see what I would consider to be rudeness towards others. I'm guilty of it myself and I am currently seeking a higher road. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:32
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    Jeff doesn't call "newbie question askers" vampires. He calls people who refuse to help themselves vampires. People who ask questions instead of expending a few minutes of effort to figure out a problem for themselves. The people whose questions you answer thoroughly, with links to the documentation, and they say "plz can i haz code?" Those people are a drain on the resources of our community. Newbies are perfectly welcome here, and can learn a lot!
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:35
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    On all but one of your downvoted questions I see more comments than downvotes. That one exception only got a single downvote before you deleted the question. People were leaving you feedback.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:35
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    Well, sorry, I thought SO is a forum :) Hence I conclude newbies should't ask every things in SO and at least they should register into one other forums except SO. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:45
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    @masoudkeshavarz - If the question has not been properly asked here, you should consider asking it again and posting a self-answer. As long as it is thorough, it will be upvoted by people who have found it useful. Downvotes cost points, so people don't normally downvote just for the heck of it. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:56
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    Want to downvote because I disagree, want to upvote because you shared your experiences with us constructively. Can I sidevote?
    – user1228
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 14:20
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    Well, Right now I see some one intentionally downvoted my bad questions from two years ago and I banned from asking question in SO again. I asked those questions two years ago, Now I learnt a lot in this two years. Why after two years I should still get banned for mistakes I made two years ago? Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 14:50
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    Thank you community for your time and response. Writing this feed back took almost 2 hours of my time and what I get as a reward is some guys downvoted to my bad questions from two years ago and I see I banned again for asking questions. It was only two weeks that I returned to SO, I really didnt do anythings wrong in this two weeks. Except share with you my experience from two years ago. I could simply dont share with you my past experience. Right? Then you wouldnt reward me with revenge downvote and bann me again. You guys are fantastic. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 15:26
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    I'm sorry you got targeted with downvotes on SO - that stinks. But I assure you that was only one or two people out of the 95 who read this question.
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 16:27
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    The OP is dead on, there are a lot of jerks and tools on the stack exchange sites, not everyone, but enough of a presence to make it difficult.
    – GreySage
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 19:44
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    This is a good point - even experienced programmers may hit a wall with new technology (such a crystal reports) and need a simple pointer such as "when you get a general error you can check the logs which are generated which will indicate a more specific cause of the problem". Such a QA is likely to be of lasting value to anyone else hitting a roadblock early in their learning of that technology. This community could be better at realizing different questions and answers are appropriate for different skill levels.
    – Zero
    Commented Sep 4, 2015 at 1:20

3 Answers 3

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I understand your anger, but I have to respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Stack Overflow is not a "Forum" and does not want to be one. Its goal is to create a collection of high-quality questions and answers about specific programming problems, that should be of value for other people in the future.

So I think your anger comes from your wrong expectations of the site:

After all, SO is a programming forum, not a reference book or wiki

In fact, SO wants to be a lot more like a reference/wiki as it likes to be a forum.

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    I'm not angry :) I had this experience two years ago. I just wanted to share with you as a feed back what was my feeling when I registered in other forums and I compared them with SO community. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 12:42
  • Your statement, Its goal is to create a collection of high-quality questions and answers Well, we all as Stack overflow regular members could TRY our level best to provide high-quality ANSWERS, but nobody can guarantee or vouch for high-quality QUESTIONS, as it completely depends on OP. We can just try to make sure OP makes his question more meaningful via comments or eventually make an edit by ourselves on OP's behalf. Commented Sep 11, 2014 at 18:36
  • @LalitKumarB As you mentioned, with edits, comments and flags we have a lot of tools to make sure that questions live up to the standard too
    – LionC
    Commented Sep 12, 2014 at 8:08
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I think we've got some meanings of terms crossed.

Vampires, in the context of online communities, are people that continuously take everything that they can, and never (or rarely) give anything back. For Stack Overflow, these tend to be people that ask at least one question per assignment they're given during the day, because they find it easier than trying to work through solutions themselves.

We're here to help people become better programmers and communicators through the sharing of knowledge. If we teach you how to debug a problem, its with every expectation that you'll put that knowledge to good use, and share it with someone else that could use it.

Asking for help occasionally is something completely different than consuming the time of as many people as will let you, as you remain fully indifferent to the consequences of what you're doing. If too many of these types of people are present in a community, the experts go somewhere less mentally (and often emotionally) draining, and then we're sunk.

That's what Jeff was talking about.

Regarding the forum aspect - we're not a forum, we've tried to make it clear from the start that we're building a high quality reference library for programmers, you type in your problem, you find an answer, or wait a few minutes for someone to provide one. I'm not exactly sure how you, an obviously engaged user at one time, missed that. Folks were trying to tell you.

I will concede—for those who are used to traditional forums, we do look an awful lot like one, and we've made some changes since you became a new user. Our new tour page is shown to everyone that asks a question, and it does a much better job of letting folks know what we're about, and what we expect. There's also some new just-in-time help for folks that we've rolled out (but not yet really populated), to assist them during their first few questions—because we are different and using our site is a skill you need to learn. But, in order to do that, folks need to read and getting some to do that is surprisingly difficult.

We're also working on the blocking, so folks that have real aptitude and just some difficulty adapting to high-quality Q&A aren't as quickly discouraged, just slowed down a tad.

Yes, the new user experience is something that still needs work, and we're working on it. And hey, I'm glad you found a place to participate that works for you. Still, the level of disconnect you're articulating is quite a bit far from common.

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    Thank you tim for you'r time and writing this answer, I try my best to don't repeat my mistakes in SO again. Commented Aug 21, 2014 at 13:26
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Stack Overflow is a bit different from how most help sites and forums work on the Internet. We look for good quality questions that will be a lasting resource that is easy for future users to find rather than just being helpful to the immediate situation. As you yourself admitted, you enjoy reading SO. SO is the #1 Q/A site for programing questions because of the high quality of the content, both questions and answers. This quality is maintained, in part, through the rules you talked about. It's hard work and it takes some effort to get used to, but it makes a great system once you understand how it operates.

Is it frustrating that you didn't get information about where to look for more detail about your error on your original question? Sure, but it wouldn't have answered your question directly, just told you how to find more detail for your question. It would have lead to a discussion and would not have been discoverable for future users since commentary about where to find logs wouldn't be obviously related to the question and would be almost impossible to find. The question was too generic to be answerable, so it was downvoted because it couldn't be answered and most likely had people commenting that you needed to provide more details. (I can't see deleted posts on SO.)

Forums have a different focus than SO and so they have a different style as well. A forum is more focused on having a dialog between users, the focus is on the current exchange and it is kept around simply for historical reference. This is very different from the long term resource that SO strives to be.

Asking questions on SO is much more like making edits on Wikipedia than posting on a forum, it requires research to see if your question has been asked and effort to phrase your question in a way that makes it easily discoverable and as generic as possible so that the answer will not only help you, but also have the best chance of helping others in the future by helping them with a similar problem and being discoverable when they have that problem.

If you keep in mind that the goal isn't just to help with your situation, but also any similar situations that come up in the future and think about how to ask the question so that it is specific enough to give an answer and be discoverable, but generic enough to help the most people possible, then you will find SO to be a much easier resource to use.

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  • For a post that has been "closed as off-topic", it attracted a lot of responses, some highly upvoted, and the result looks pretty instructive to newcomers. Maybe closing the topic (and its downvotes) is indicative of the very state of mind in SO that the original post was attempting to address? Results from SO rank very highly in Google searches, so often the first answer you fall on has been judged as duplicate, closed as off-topic, etc, while it answers your question and is sometimes highly upvoted.
    – Francis
    Commented Apr 2, 2019 at 14:52
  • @Francis - I'm not sure what you are trying to get at or how it relates to my answer here. There is a difference between a question closed as duplicate (which isn't removed as it may be a useful search handle for another in the future, but where the answers should be condensed for all ways to reaching the same question), vs an off topic post that isn't answerable and is unlikely to produce meaningful hits from searching. Commented Apr 2, 2019 at 15:38

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