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Despite the fact that the other user engaged in commenting with me is a new user, the system is encouraging me to move the discussion to chat.

Upon clicking the link, it's clearly smart enough to deny the action (and tell me why), so why bother offering the link portion at all?

Ideally, the system is smart enough to notice that the only other person conversing has less than 20 rep, and the message becomes "Please avoid extended discussions in comments." (sans the invite to create a chat.)

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    It'd be nice if the system made an exception to the 20 rep rule for those links in particular. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 19:55
  • @Qix It would. I feel like that's already been discussed though. If the powers-that-be choose to allow chat, obviously this question is moot. If they choose to keep it as-is, the link is just dangling the carrot and yanking it away. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 19:58
  • There's always the inelegant end run around the problem. The user's only one up vote on the question for being allowed chat access... Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:09
  • @DanNeely You're recommending visiting a chat room and lobbying for someone else to cast a quick upvote? :) Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:28
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    More fundamentally, the whole idea that "There's TOO MUCH ascii here! It's using TOO MUCH! resources!! People could GET CONFUSED! seeing all this! The human brain is NOT ABLE TO! process so much information!" ... well, there's a number of incredibly silly, super old-fashioned, embarrassing, things on SO, that have "not been removed yet" since like the 1950s or something when the feature was added. {Imagine if FB said "not too many comments now, youngsters!"} Regarding absurd warnings about "comments too long!", ignore generally.
    – Fattie
    Commented Jun 27, 2014 at 7:30
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    I completely agree with @JoeBlow that prodding users to use chat instead of comments is ridiculous, especially when the chat system is so awful. Comments seem like a lot less trouble for everyone involved. Commented Jun 27, 2014 at 22:00
  • Nobody has ever agreed with me before on "Meta SO" !!! :O
    – Fattie
    Commented Jun 28, 2014 at 11:36

1 Answer 1

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This is sort of a "feature" of best-practices in user interfaces: don't silently hide things that should be there, just because the user doesn't have sufficient privileges yet.

It's the same principle that makes the "auto-hide infrequently-used menu entries" in older versions of Microsoft Office so confusing: it changes the location of things. If you are anything like me, you rely on things being in the same place they were last time you used them. It would be the moral equivalent of somebody coming into your office and constantly changing where you put your reading glasses.

In this specific instance, users who are shown the link are given guidance when they click on the link, and it responds "The user with whom you want to converse with does not have sufficient reputation to join you in chat." They would never get that guidance if the link was not shown, and would be wondering why they're not getting the link.

The second reason you might do this is that checking permissions can be expensive; you should only do it when there is a need to do it. It's much cheaper to just display the UI item and then deny permission if it is clicked.

All that said, it is not a hard-and-fast rule. For example, users are not shown a delete link if they don't have permissions.

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    I agree. This principle is exactly why I recommended only omitting the link portion, as opposed to the entire message. Another approach would be to replace the link with a simple message explaining that chat is unavailable due to the rep limit. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:07
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    Strictly speaking, if you follow this convention, the UI element in question should look the same way every time you encounter it.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:08
  • As it is, the experience feels clumsy. If we're equating this with the paradigm of graying-out a menu item when it isn't available, the link should become static text, and it isn't that much of a jump to change the static text to a brief message explaining why chat is not an option. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:10
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    To be clear, if you change the link to static text, you take the cost of checking permissions every time you show it. The way it is now, you don't have to take that hit unless the link is clicked, and you don't have to pollute your main page with that logic; you can encapsulate it in the "move to chat" functionality.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:12
  • Doesn't the main page already need to check the rep for so many other UI elements (adverts, view close votes, cast close votes, ...) that this overhead is minimal relative to other uses of rep checks? Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:21
  • But the "Move to Chat" is separate functionality from a post page. I wouldn't be surprised if it requires another trip to the database for several users to check permissions. Not exactly cheap.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:33
  • Are you saying that the code that displays the link is separate from the code that provides the hover-text of "1234 reputation" when I mouse-over a contributor's name for one of the comments? Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:38
  • But then the check is only made when you're hovering, not for all users' reps on that page. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:40
  • The hover text for "1234 reputation" is already present in the page's HTML/Javascript/whatever. The cost of looking up that person's reputation was already taken when the person's account name was retrieved from the database. The process of moving to chat is a completely different module.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:41
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    I'm unclear how the "process of moving to chat" is integrated with the code for displaying the link. It feels like that code responsible for displaying the link is the same as the page's HTML. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:53
  • Are we still talking about user account links in comments, or the link that says "please avoid extended discussions. Would you like to move this conversation to chat?"
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:54
  • The "Would you like to move this converation to chat" link. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:54
  • There are no database costs for simply displaying that link. It is merely Javascript talking. None of the machinery for moving a conversation to chat (including checking permissions) is marshaled until that link is clicked.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:55
  • Here's my logic: (1) "1234 reputation" hover text on comments = cost incurred. We know the rep for each commentor. (2) "1234 reputation" present on same html as "Would you like to move this conversation to chat link". Same code. (3) Hide (or change to static text) the link based on the rep known from #1. What am I missing? Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:59
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    Your thoughts on UI design from the previous century are interesting and will be of good use to future historian AIs crawling this site! (For apps today, snapchat.) Regarding the whole overall issue, OP "just ignore it, kit's staggeringly silly beyond human comprehension". (Wait -- OMG - the comments here are ALMOST A COMPUTER PAGE LONG. No human mind can follow it! Someone call SO management, quick. Get the crisis team.) Regarding "... is that checking permissions can be expensive" heh good one
    – Fattie
    Commented Jun 27, 2014 at 7:35

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