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A similar question was asked around the same basic idea, but the proposed implementation was seemingly disliked: Would it be a terrible idea to split SO up into a tiered platform?. This is also a similar question, which was frustratingly closed as a duplicate of the former: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252834/why-dont-we-have-an-se-site-for-programming-help-vampires.

My question is a bit different. Should we create another Stack Exchange site for beginning programmers?

Forking is not my preference, but it's seeming that the the "leadership" in our community has come to a consensus on a few items. Among the topics of discussion here in meta lately, it seems the item of the day is "We're getting too many bad questions." My interpretation, which may not be accurate, is that it boils down to:

  1. This community is mostly for us the experts.
  2. Top priority: give us interesting questions to answer.
  3. People asking trivial questions are obviously lazy, and we don't want them around here.
  4. People answering trivial questions are enabling the lazy, and goldarnit, though reputation points are meaningless, I'm really mad that they're getting reputation points.

This is not the community I'd wish upon beginners. They come to our site, not knowing community norms, not knowing enough to craft a good Internet search to find their answers, and sometimes not being familiar with the available tools on Stack Overflow. They ask their boring, trivial question, and a gang of summer-of-love-hating experts jumps on them, pelting them with downvotes and rapid closes.

Basically, a "%#*&$ you, get out of our community."

I want a community where I can go for help, and I can help others in need. It's for that feeling of philia-style love, that you're not alone in the universe, and we're there to help each other along. I'd rather not assume the worst of everyone asking a boring question.

I answer a lot of questions for this reason. And so I'm probably now labeled as a rep whore. Awesome. (Notice how in this diagram everyone but the caretakers gets a negative label. I don't have a problem with caretakers, but I'd label some of them as the snobs instead).

Yes, "help vampires" are a problem. But I see complaint after complaint from people that are clearly not vampires but are beginners with programming. I don't mind helping beginners. Everybody has needed help when they're getting started, whether they admit it or not.

Should we have a site where people that are helpful and beginners that are in need are not vilified?

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    I think one of the best comments I read about this feature request amounted to the Internet will not benefit from the blind leading the blind. Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:22
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    smart cookies on Newbie Overflow would use google to paste answers from SO Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:37
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    @Cupcake, and before that time there were people who could enter their bootloader's machine code by heart on their front panels. Yes, we may have lost a lot of expertise along the way, which is fortunately not necessary anymore. The whole process does make it easier for each new generation of programmers, but I believe that's by design :) Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:39
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    @Jacob, I'm afraid you missed Oded's point here... A site with beginners questioning will mechanically have beginners answering, because if experts did answer beginner-level, no-research questions, then these would already be answered on SO and your feature request would not have a purpose. Commented May 11, 2014 at 18:06
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    This would likely have the effect of making StackOverflow less friendly to beginners, as experts could easily say "Go ask on the beginners site!" (even if the user's question were well written, and the beginner's site were a bad place to get answers). Commented May 11, 2014 at 20:41
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    Good points. I agree that fragmentation is a bad thing. I wish there was some solution to avoid the newbie shaming that some users delight in.
    – Jacob
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 21:32
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    Just two things, this is absolutely not a duplicate, as experts can still access the beginners site and secondly, there is actually a SE community that has shown this works, the English learner vs English communities. Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 11:57
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    I notice nobody has contradicted your interpretation that the community is acting like superior snobs (is that an interpretation of an interpretation?), and therefore it appears to casual readers that the community agrees. I get the same impression from reading the majority of posts on meta. A bit sad, but just human nature I guess. Hey throw a few unicorns in to cheer everyone up and we can just push the dirty sweaty masses under the carpet. Commented Oct 21, 2014 at 2:36
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    @DavidMulder Agreed on that; whoever thinks that no experts will visit the site apparently doesn't care about tutoring or teaching positions. Dropping back down to helping beginners is satisfying in its own way, and beginners sometimes have weird viewpoints that make experts look at a problem differently. It's not like we'd get nothing out of it.
    – Izkata
    Commented Oct 21, 2014 at 17:22
  • @Izkata: Just to be fair: Since June I have changed my opinion strongly. Although experts do visit the beginner site more than enough... the English SE's work extremely poorly in my humble opinion (though they disagree). Commented Oct 21, 2014 at 18:26
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    A separate site for help vampires? Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 21:28

3 Answers 3

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What this will accomplish is:

  • Only beginners will use this site. No experts
  • Resulting in... bad questions... bad answers... no expertise

And that is assuming that beginners even go there. Of course, once beginners do go there, they figure out that no help is coming aaaaand... they turn to the non-beginner site.


They ask their boring, trivial question, and a gang of summer-of-love-hating experts jumps on them, pelting them with downvotes and rapid closes.

Basically, a "%#*&$ you, get out of our community."

Actually, they ask their question that has been asked N times before, with some excellent answers, but did not bother to search - either on the site or using that newfangled invention, the search engine.

Or, they ask their question that is near incomprehensible and impossible to answer as it contains zero detail.

Those question get the downvotes. Those users (in particular if they will not learn) are the ones the community will reject.

A trivial question is welcome - so long as it is new, well written and is not something that would take 60 seconds on a compiler or the official documentation to answer.

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    Could you bump that to 60 seconds? I'm tired of quoting MSDN. Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:28
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    @FrédéricHamidi - status-completed
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:29
  • A site with beginners with bad questions, bad answers, and no expertise? That sounds amazing! I'll use the other site.
    – djechlin
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:42
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    @djechlin - I keep forgetting it exists. Here you go
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:47
  • @Cupcake - we also get really awful ones. The difference may be that we get rid of them.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 17:54
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    Not sure why you assumed only beginners would answer questions. I would love to help others in a non-hostile environment.
    – Jacob
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 18:02
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    Possibly, @Jacob - but the large majority of those who would be answering would be those already on the site asking - the other beginners.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 18:12
  • I'm just saying, any solution that involves just throwing out all the "beginner" questions and leaving them on an island with a conch shell and some supplies from the plane, I'm okay with. A "migrate to Yahoo answers" button that anyone with 3k rep can click and move, I'd be down for.
    – djechlin
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 18:18
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    I don't actually think your premises are true here. I think there are plenty of experienced/expert programmers that would post answers on a site for beginners (I certainly would). It'd allow a relaxation of the stringent quality guidelines which do occasionally punish users who don't have the experience to realise they aren't following them and it would help relieve the dilution of more interesting expert-level content on this site. The only trouble, I think, would be determining what goes where - the community would answer that question but I can see it causing some conflict.
    – Ant P
    Commented Oct 16, 2014 at 8:29
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    Actually, they ask their question that has been asked N times before, with some excellent answers, but did not bother to search - that is certainly the case sometimes, but often beginner users have searched but don't have the comprehension of the subject matter to determine what is or isn't relevant to them.
    – Ant P
    Commented Oct 16, 2014 at 8:39
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  • I assume the idea was that certain "friendly" pro's would still frequent the site, to help out the newbies...
    – rogerdpack
    Commented Dec 8, 2015 at 16:32
  • @rogerdpack - it is a naive assumption.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Dec 8, 2015 at 16:37
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    A child asking about how gravity works doesn't benefit from Albert Einstein providing the answer. If we had a novice section on physics, probably Albert Einstein would never participate there, and he'd be grateful to not have to deal with such questions. But we shouldn't assume only beginners clueless about physics will participate in such a section. Intermediates and reasonably-advanced people might visit that section to give answers, if not frequently then from time-to-time, especially given that it will most likely have the highest traffic since beginners have never-ending questions.
    – user4842163
    Commented Dec 12, 2015 at 7:20
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    Right now the effect I'm perceiving is that the analogical Albert Einsteins are miserable due to the sheer amount of beginner questions they're being exposed to, while the beginners are miserable getting terse Einsteinian answers from someone elite but can no longer remember what it's like to be such a beginner. These two worlds don't like each other very much -- they leave the expert uninspired, the beginner intimidated.
    – user4842163
    Commented Dec 12, 2015 at 7:25
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To get better at something, the key ingredient, besides passion and a drive to improve, is to surround yourself with people who are smarter than you.

A site for beginners would be a stagnant place for non-experts to simply share non-expert answers and never grow or challenge themselves to move beyond the phase of being a beginner.

In an answer to a meta question from someone concerned about how they were treated on Stack Overflow, that person actually got an answer to a Stack Overflow question from the former C# design team member Eric Lippert.

Answered in-depth by Eric Lippert. protip: You wont get a better answer!

A beginners site wouldn't get answers from the actual authors of a language. To truly grow and become experts ourselves, we must get out of our comfort zones and go play with the big boys and girls. If we forever live and play where it's safe, we won't grow and excel.

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    I note that I was a creator of C#, and that I worked on it from C# 3.0 to 5.0. C# was and continues to be the effort of a large and diverse team. If you want to use the definitive article then the creator of C# is Anders Hejlsberg. Commented May 13, 2014 at 18:37
  • Sorry for getting that wrong, @EricLippert, and thanks for the corrections. I should know better than to rely on hearsay. ;) Commented May 13, 2014 at 19:26
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    For many Q&As you don't need to be the creator of the language to give an answer that is the best possible answer. For the real trick questions you're right though. Problem is that beginners aren't welcome on SO and have no other place. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 12:04
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    @Trilarion - Surround yourself with smart people. That is how you become an expert. If you just want to feel safe, then Stack Exchange isn't for you. The problem isn't beginners. The problem is people who don't want to put in the effort to write good questions, which beginners with a lot of backbone are more than capable of doing. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 15:24
  • @jmort253 One of these days we should make the fun and make a detailed audit of closed questions to estimate the false positives rate. Maybe I'm just too soft with beginners but maybe others are too harsh. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 21:10
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    @Trilarion - Don't get me wrong. I don't think we should be mean or rude to people who legitimately are trying. We all were at one point new and needed some guidance. I can say I was once green and wrote terrible questions, and some folks were kind enough to help me improve. We don't -- however -- want to encourage folks to be mediocre... Hope this helps clarify. Commented Jul 8, 2014 at 0:18
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    Funnily, the philosopher Montaigne argued the opposite to your first sentence - that surrounding yourself with people smarter than you creates a discouraging feeling of intellectual inferority. :-p Commented Oct 21, 2014 at 1:12
  • The best learning occurs typically when you surround yourself with people who are slightly smarter than you. A child asking a basic physics question isn't going to benefit from an Albert Einstein answer. The answerer can't be so far ahead of the person asking the question that he can no longer place himself in their shoes. The other thing is that I'd question this assumption that a beginner section on the site would only have beginners answering. Intermediates might seek these out, as well as bored experts looking for something interesting since that section would have the highest traffic.
    – user4842163
    Commented Dec 12, 2015 at 7:07
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Are not all people beginners. Lets say you've been programming for 50 years you know the ins and outs of c++ you are what may be considered an expert so with that logic your an expert in VHDL coding as well.

Your argument above states that only experts should be allowed in the main SO site but because you may not be an expert in say VHDL then your not an expert. I amend your above comment to say that so should be divided into all the tags currently in SO then there should be extensive testing for each member and anyone above the 90th percentile in anyone tag should be allowed to stay but they can only post/answer questions within that tag.

You know what, thats a world I dont want to live in...

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    You are yet another person to equate quality with difficulty. The two are unrelated. There are hard questions that are really horribly written, and there are really easy beginner questions that are extremely well written. The site demands questions be of how quality; it in no way demands that they be hard.
    – Servy
    Commented May 13, 2014 at 18:42
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    @Servy My impression is that the "lacks research" downvote reason is used to reject/downvote question that are too easy to answer. There is a certain minimal hardness inbuilt or people start to downvote. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 11:44
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    @Trilarion That's exactly right, we expect people to do research before asking questions here. It also so happens that easier questions tend to be much easier to research, and it's much more likely that an easier question will already have readily available answers than a harder question. If, however, the question demonstrates a reasonable amount of effort despite being easy to solve, it can still be a quality question, meanwhile a problem that's very hard to solve, but has readily available solutions anyway, is one that shouldn't be asked on SO.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 13:57
  • @Servy What is a question that demonstrates a reasonable amount of effort but is easy to solve? Isn't this a bit contradictory. It seems you have two kinds of difficulties: hard to answer and hard to find the anwser. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 14:12
  • @Trilarion Yes, that's exactly right, there are two completely different metrics, how easy/hard it is to find an existing answer through research, and how easy/hard it is to solve the problem from scratch. We expect everyone to be doing basic research before asking their question here, regardless of the skill level of the question. When discussing question difficulty you also have to keep in mind that difficultly is relative. For someone inexperienced in a topic a problem could be very hard, if not impossible to solve, but for a subject expert it could just be a few minutes.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 14:15
  • @Servy Ok, I understand you and agree. Thanks for time to write the comments. Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 14:18

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