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I recently stumbled upon a question and have been called out on my actions there in several comments.

Here is a summary of my interactions:

  • Question was a duplicate of a closed question by the same author in the first place, so I downvoted it, voted to close it as a dupe and left the usual comment asking the questioner to refrain from doing that in the future.
  • One user says they disagree (fair enough), finds the question clear enough, and proceeds to post an answer that doesn't bring much to the table IMHO.
  • I try to point out the question is too broad to be answered in the comments, but that does not go well. Excerpt of reply (now deleted): Stack overflow is being killed by pedants who refuse to read a question properly.

As I tried to be courteous and to follow the rules of the site, I would like to know the community's objective opinion about what happened there. Is that question really on-topic and was I in error when deeming it too broad? Is there another course of action I could have followed with better results (less friction and the question being closed and not answered)?

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  • 3
    @devnull, I totally agree, except such an environment is not SO IMHO ;) Seriously though, I have a hunch these posts were upvoted to counter my own downvotes, not because of their intrinsic quality. That's also a problem, and leads me to wonder if I should not have just left that question alone. Commented May 7, 2014 at 10:48
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    Change is the essential process of all existence. SO too needs to exist.
    – devnull
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 10:55
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    Yes, perhaps leaving it would be warranted. I've almost stopped voting to close as duplicates or too broad. You'd often find yourself alone in such cases which probably hints that whatever action you chose wasn't perhaps correct. Certainly not in line with how people expect to act. (Not worth it, I'd say.)
    – devnull
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 11:01
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    Flag that comment as "too chatty". It doesn't belong there. Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:22
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    I doubt it will last too long. It has now attracted too much attention Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:23
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    If that user finds that with his superior reading skills there is a question to discover in there which is not too broad, then perhaps he should edit the question into a shape that allows us to reopen it. But it's too broad in its current form.
    – Bart
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:29
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    I was the original answerer. Let me explain why I did not find the question too broad. The OP wanted to scrape the same site as an addon. The users problem was that the URLs used by that addon did not show up in firebug or in the browser history. (Which makes it hard to scrape.) I have had the same problem in the past, so I did not think it was a silly question and certainly not too broad.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:50
  • 9
    Yes, sorry about the "pedants" remark. Don't take it personally. However, lately I feel SO has become more of a race to get questions closed as fast as possible than to actually help users.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:53
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    @Hans, some of us actually feel the opposite way, as if it has become a race to get low-quality questions answered as fast as possible, before they can be closed. Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:54
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    IMHO the problem is with more and more crap/low-quality questions comming in, there's also a change in the tolerance threshold of what questions are considered OK or not OK.
    – sloth
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:56
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    I also did not think the original question was too broad, if you take the definition that SO uses for too broad. (I.e. has too many possible answers or needs many paragraphs to answer.) A question can be broad, but then when a short answer will suffice to point someone in the right direction, I don't think it is too broad.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:57
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    @Hans, the blurb in the close banner sums it well IMHO: There are either too many possible answers, or good answers would be too long for this format. Please add details to narrow the answer set or to isolate an issue that can be answered in a few paragraphs. Questions like I want an automated script to collect the ranks of the websites in alexa.com which is shown on the top of firefox on the add-on bar when I visit a website (say google.com). To make it clear I want to collect the data which is displayed by the alexa add-on without existing code cannot reliably be answered in our format. Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:17
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    That was not his question. It simply was context for his actual question: I do not see the URLs for alexa.com in firebug. How can I determine which URLs I need to call. I agree it could have been formulated more clearly, but OP was obviously struggling with the English language as well.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:22
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    You got in trouble because you were forced to pick a close reason with weasel-words. This kind of question would have been quickly dispatched in the olden days, that's just not possible anymore. Big reason we've got so many of them these days. Commented May 7, 2014 at 16:19
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    @HansThen and Frédéric: Regarding your race comments, you are both correct, really as it's the same race, if you look at it. A race between high rep users who want to close the low quality questions and the rep whores who want to answer the low quality as fast as possible. What's really bad, though, is that all half decent questions end up as collateral damage, and often end up either unanswered because they don't interest the second party, who want easy rep, or get closed when they shouldn't be because the high rep users are a bit too trigger happy these days.
    – Pat
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 19:42

5 Answers 5

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tl;dr:

  • The question you referenced is a duplicate, and should be closed; the OP really should be fixing their first question, not "trying again" until he gets an answer.
  • The question isn't really "too broad" but the way it's written does make that hard to detect. The OP should be encouraged to boil down their question to just the specific things they need help with. (e.g. do we really care that it's an alexa add-on or or why you need the data? Tell us specifically what you can't figure out and we'll help.)
  • The user (Hans?) that was complaining how "no one reads questions anymore" isn't entirely faultless here: if you can figure out what the question is asking and others clearly can't, that's the entire reason users are allowed to edit other user's questions. Instead of throwing blame and accusations around, go fix the questions to make it better.

First of all, your intuition to close the second question as a duplicate was spot on, and it should have stayed that way.

Having users ask questions, get them closed, and just keep trying until they get it right is bad. Now we have one bad, closed question, and one only slightly less bad, closed question from the same user asking the same thing. If the OP wanted to try to ask the question again a better way, he should have edited his first question to make it fit the rules. If anything, that maybe should have been what your initial response to the second question was, e.g.

This question looks very similar to one you asked earlier that was closed. If you want to try to improve that question, please edit your first question.

I do agree with the sentiment some comments brought up: we certainly don't want to discourage new users from asking questions because they think they will never get answers. But we do want to encourage users to ask questions that fit this site, and we want them to do so in a way that is most likely to produce good quality questions from them later on.

As far as whether the question itself should have been closed, I tend to agree with Hans here, that it's fine, though it's borderline.

First, lets start with this: There is no close reason that specifically says "your question isn't specific enough". I think the title of the "too broad" close reason is misleading, but the actual description is pretty clear. "Too Broad" means too many completely different answers are possible, it has nothing to do with how open-ended the question itself is. It's all about the answers. Open ended questions, especially ones that don't contain any code, need to be "constructive" to stay open. Paraphrasing from how-to-ask, they need to lead to answers that explain "how" to solve the problem, "why" that solution works, and are useful for later users.

In this case, the problem is with the wording of the question, making it sound very much like a "how do I foo?" question, but it's not. The question was, in essence, "I'm trying to capture data shown in a browser add-on but I cannot figure out how to get the URL. I tried Firebug but it won't tell me anything about add-ons." That's an answerable question, and someone did answer it, though again, the answer seems broad until you get to the last sentence: "use a tool like tcpdump to capture the URL traffic."

In both cases, this is exactly why we allow anyone to edit anyone else's questions and answers. If you're able to figure out what the OP is asking when others can't, especially if the question is on the verge of being closed incorrectly, go fix the question. If you could have fixed the question, and you chose not to, and it gets closed, you really have no justification to whine about it later.

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  • The first part of your answer is spot-on: I should have pointed out to the questioner they should go back and edit their original question in my very first comment. Maybe they would not have deleted it then, and the situation would have been very different. Thank you. Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:27
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    Michael, I do not agree it is my responsibility to fix a question before it is closed. I answered the question before I could even see that others read the question differently. It seems to me that people should pay more attention and try to read a question in a sympathetic light before they vote to close.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:28
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    @FrédéricHamidi new users often don't realize that editing an old question is even an option. What we want to avoid is giving users the idea that "if your question isn't awesome we're going to ignore you." We want to give the impression "we really want to help you, we just can't figure out what you want. You help us understand and we'll help you fix your problem." Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:31
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    @HansThen it is every user of this site's responsibility to make questions better when they can. That's why users have the power to do those things in the first place. If you choose not to use that power, that is of course your right, you can use this site however you choose. But when you complain about "people" making this site less inviting for new users, just remember that you are one of those people. Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:33
  • Random posting tip - IMO it would be better to get rid of the "TL;DR" and put the non-"TL;DR" text under the appropriate bullet points (perhaps making the summary bold), as to allow the elaboration of a point to appear directly under it, not somewhere in the middle of a few paragraphs. Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:48
  • Michael, it is a collective responsibility. To me the reworded question was clear as it is. I simply think Frederic did not read the reworded version of the question carefully enough. I can also make the site more inviting to new users by simply answering their questions.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:50
  • @HansThen: So we should not close questions based on the assumption that someone else might be able to understand them? I read a question, I don't understand it, I close vote it. You read it, you understand it, you answer it. Then other people come and do similar things. In the end the question is closed by many votes, but only has one answer. Does that really mean that all the people did not read the question? Or should we be a bit sympathetic and assume that the people really did not understand the question?
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 15:23
  • When the Buddha held up a flower only one in his audience smiled.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 16:10
  • That is not how it went. I answered the question before Frederic voted to close it. It got four upvotes in the first few minutes. Then Frederic went to meta stack overflow. In no time negative responses, both to the original question and to my response flooded in. This was more like mobbing than sympathetic discussion. I think the OP deleted his question (again).
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 16:12
  • And the request to me to be sympathetically, should that not also hold for the persons doing the review? If you find a question unclear, should you not consider the possibility that you simply did not understand the question?
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 16:16
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I am glad you brought that matter up in an open discussion Frederic Hamidi, this makes space for others to express their opinions; for this I am grateful.

According to Stack Overflow rules, as I understand them, I believe you were correct in your assessment of the question: it was most certainly a little broadly defined and could have been better formulated; your request to improve on it was legitimate. However, I don't think the discussion is entirely about that: as I tried to convey in my comment in the thread, the attitude and tone of some responders on certain questions is often brutal on new comers; I have witnessed it recently and have also felt the bite for myself (although that was when I was trying to offer help).

I have no pretense of knowing the site's inner culture, ambitions or desires for the future, but because I noticed the many discussions going on at this moment, I thought that I would offer you a "newcomer's" direct and honest feedback in the hope that maybe it will help the board leaders to find a better course of action.

Thank you for listening. Fred

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    And thank you for your answer, Reblochon. Could you point out specifics about attitude and tone that I could have improved in my handling of that question? I'm especially interested in determining whether or not I could have avoided this situation only by changing a few words in my comments. Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:59
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    -1 for "brutal". If a question has issues, then it should be downvoted and closed, and the problems with it should be expressed as clearly and directly as possible. Offensive comments shouldn't be tolerated, of course, but nobody should have to sugarcoat anything. The fact that someone is new to SO or the internet in general doesn't mean he should be treated any different from established users (with the exception of leaving a comment explaining what he did wrong if he's brand new).
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:09
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    C'mon. "Brutal" is just saying what it's like. Many people on Stack Overflow are being--very courteously--very rude to newcomers. Should Reblochon sugarcoat that observation?
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:13
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    @l4mpi I do agree with your comment, but I want to point out that this is a very fine line. What is "brutal", "offensive" or "sugarcoated" highly depends on your culture and many (US-)Americans or Europeans might simply see as direct, other cultures might see as offensive. I don't want to imply that we therefore shouldn't be clear in our actions, but it should just serve as a reminder when answering people. Basically: Be nice
    – dirkk
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:13
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    @HansThen and even more people are IMO very rude to the established community of StackOverflow by posting heaps of crappy questions with complete disregard to the rules and conventions of the site. I don't see why I should try to be as polite as possible to people like this. Actually, I already consider explaining the problems with their post (in a clear, direct way) as being polite - I could also just downvote and move on.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:17
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    That was not the case here. The OP should maybe not have retracted his original question, but his reformulation was clear enough. It was not a crappy question and it did not disregard the rules and conventions of the site. You make it sound like new users should first consult with a lawyer before entering the shark pool that is Stack Overflow.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:53
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    @HansThen it was also not the case that Frédéric was being rude or even "brutal" to OP, I'd say he was being very polite. I'm just arguing against sugarcoating things, as being as nice as possible was never and should never be a requirement - not being offensive and/or obnoxious is the requirement. Also, people shouldn't consult lawyers before posting to SO but most of the newcomers would definitely benefit from lurking more before attempting to participate.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 14:20
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    Good on you for coming here and posting that. An excellent answer, erudite and well reasoned. If only more newcomers acted and behaved like you. Stick around.
    – McNab
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 19:49
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    +1 for "brutal", as Hans Then says in him "C'mon..." comment. This meta forum is full of posts trying to convince all moderators to be brutal in our assessment of things. A lot of mods also say don't bother commenting - just downvote, or vote to close. Comments take too much time. Basically - that is brutal. Commented May 8, 2014 at 14:52
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    +1 for "brutal". Unfortunately this post isn't available to me but speaking from past experience, telling a person how to formulate a better question is a great use for a comment. Telling them why you are voting to close is a great use for a comment. In other instances I have seen a responder with 30K rep tell a person to "hire someone qualified". Comments like these are not constructive and should be flagged as such.
    – nsfyn55
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 18:42
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I do think you handled it correctly.

However, as you are also asking what you could have done better I would suggest to be more constructive in the comments what the OP could actually do to ask a fitting question.

While your statement

Please refrain from posting the same question twice, it will only be closed as your original question was. Deleting the original won't help either.

is certainly true, it does not help the OP to actually answer the same question. As is visible from the comment, the OP actually thought about what he/she was doing and thought it would be okay to ask the question slightly changed. Imagine you are new to SO and you experience the same: So now you know you ought not to ask the same question twice. Okay, that's fine, but my problem is still not solved.

Help the user and steer them in the right direction and do not simply point out what they did wrong.

The same goes for your second comment

I honestly don't know how to better convey that how to do that??..what language and tools should i use?? is too broad for Stack Overflow. Look at the answer you received so far, does it actually help you solving that problem? Would your question and that answer really be useful to other users, now or in the future?

which points out the errors, but does not help the user to actually make the question better. I think something along the followings lines would help the user more:

Your previous question was already closed and it is not allowed on SO to simply ask the same question again. Your previous question was closed because it is too broad. Please be more specific in your questions and focus on programming problems you run into. You can not ask for language or tools tips on SO, therefore you might want to figure out a technology you want to use fore yourself or somewhere else and if you do get stuck using this technology, you are welcome to come back and ask a specific question.

Please be also aware that I actually think your answers are very good and appropriate, I just think it is an even better approach to steers users in the right direction. This does not mean at all that your approach was wrong.

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    Yes, I was actually doing that for a while, and I might be a little burnt-out recently. I now believe trying to lend a helpful hand to every new user cannot possibly scale, and that the close reasons should suffice. It is true that the question being a repost of a closed one did not lead me to trust repeating the close reason in a comment would work either. Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:32
  • I am with you on this. I also don't confirm to the standard I just posted in the answer, at least not all the time. But yes, sometimes just down-voting/flagging will have to do.
    – dirkk
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 13:36
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I was the person who originally answered this question. What you could have done better is actually explain why you think the question was too broad, especially after he reformulated it.

His question had the following structure:

  1. I want to do A
  2. However, I run into problems with B

In this case, the OP's question was:

  1. I want to use the data from the alexa webservice, like the firefox add-on
  2. However, in Firebug I cannot see the URLs the addon uses, as I can for an Ajax application that is part of a website. I want to know which URLs are accessed by the addon, to replay them in my application.

He then explicitly mentions he does not need help with the scraping part or accessing the webservices, but only with reverse engineering part.

My answer was that he could use tcpdump to see the HTTP requests and responses.

You have assured me that that is not the case, but from your reactions it is not clear that you fully understood either the question or my answer to it. You ask the OP if the answer was really helpful and here on Meta, you tell that it did not bring much to the table.

From your answers, it appears as if you only react to first part of the question, "I want to do A, how should I do that", which in general does not fare well with Stack Overflow users. You appeared to have read the question only half, which caused the irritated remarks from OP and me. You told me that such was not the case, which I accept for a fact.

However, you could have avoided the reactions you got, if you had made your motivations explicit. You say the question is too broad, but you do not give reasons why you think so (at least not in reference to his actual problem).

Also, please understand that what may be too broad for you, can be very simple for others. I know of only a few ways to reverse engineer HTTP exchanges. I mentioned one possible tool and it only took me a few lines. The OP poster was satisfied with this answer as he immediately started using the tool.

You are obviously so much more experienced that this question could not be "answered in a few paragraphs". You were probably thinking of many more sniffing tools, disassembling the addon and many more things that I did not think of.

In such a case, it would help if you explained in a few sentences, why you think the question "cannot be answered in a few paragraphs". You could give examples of the broad discussion lines. Or you could give an example how to verify that the question was too broad. You could say something like: "the best way to reverse engineer an HTTP exchange is still a matter of ongoing research, see this link for an overview of the discussion".

This way you would both show that you understood the question, you would give the poster a helpful hint where to start looking for a real answer and you would motivate your decision to close the question.

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    I'm sorry you still believe I'm only parsing questions halfway, but I do think the question is still too broad in its current state, both after the original questioner's edit and yours. Commented May 7, 2014 at 15:30
  • Okay, I will accept that such is your honest and well thought-out opinion. My apologies for the harsh wording. I sometimes get irritated at review-robots and rep-junkies mindlessly working through their review queue just to gain a view reputation points. I am sure that none of this applies to you.
    – Hans Then
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 15:48
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    Since when do we get rep for closing awful questions and trying to stop SO from turning into Yahoo Answers?
    – Wooble
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 17:02
  • @Wooble: Please make this into a feature request.
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 15:18
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    @PlasmaHH: I'm pretty sure it would be a duplicate.
    – Wooble
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 15:34
  • Apparently, the http responses given tcpdump may be compressed and chunked (i.e. unreadable). Source: stackoverflow.com/questions/4777042/… (that being said, this is not my area of expertise, and I'm not sure if what can be assumed about the http responses can also be assumed about the http requests. Supposedly, if only the urls were required, I would think that only the http requests would be needed, not the http responses). Could someone with more expertise give a more definitive answer? I do not know the answer. Commented May 8, 2014 at 23:20
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Why are you spending time, which could have been spent doing something worthwhile, trying to figure out why you have been called out on a message board. That is THE question. It's not like the website took away your dignity and respect. Just leave it alone and move on.

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    SO, unlike the other sites that you seem to be accostomed to, has quality standards. We do not allow just any question. Questions that do not meet the site's standards get closed, and if not improved, deleted. If you want to have a place where you can ask any question and know that it won't be rejected from the site, this is not the place to go.
    – Servy
    Commented May 8, 2014 at 20:35
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    He is asking how he could have dealt with it better. I would say that self-improvement is doing something worthwhile. Granted, I would have cast a close vote and moved along. But fortunately we're not all so cynical.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 6:08

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