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Currently, a post needs to get 3 delete votes to get deleted, and 3 undelete votes to get undeleted.

... Or does it? The only way I have ever seen a post get undeleted is by its author, which requires just one "vote" (or rather, a decision to do so). I have just stumbled upon a list of my undelete votes - 18 votes in 10 years. Not a single post undeleted because of them.

Is this "undelete" feature helpful at all? Can we tweak how it works to make it more useful?

  • Decrease the required number of undelete votes to 2?
  • Add deleted posts with a single undelete vote to some review queue?
  • Other ideas?

Or maybe it's already good now, and everyone else's experience is different from mine?

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    Less effective over the last years it seems: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1818438#graph
    – rene
    Commented Feb 8 at 13:44
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    Modify 10k tools so that the "recent" and "most" undelete votes list isn't full of junk which only the post owner thinks is worth undeleting. Commented Feb 8 at 13:51
  • 9
    Participating in SOCVR is a very effective way to have your delete votes actually result in an undeletion. It's certainly better than just casting undelete votes in the wild, in my experience. (Make sure to follow the room guidelines for how to participate there).
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 8 at 14:02
  • @rene I don't understand that query, but it's very interesting! Does it include the cases when OP deleted and later undeleted the post, unilaterally (these cases are uninteresting)?
    – anatolyg
    Commented Feb 8 at 15:40
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    @anatolyg it would indeed include those cases. Here is, roughly, excluding cases where the OP was the undelete voter. That said, I'm not sure how PostHistory handles multi-user actions. rene could likely critique this and/or do a better job.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Feb 8 at 15:51
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    Looks like, for undeletes, the details of the users are stored in JSON in the Text column, and when it's a multi user the associated User is the Community User, @RyanM . In January this year, there was a whole four posts undeleted by [members of] the community, all the rest (26) were by moderators: SEDE. If we add some conditional logic to your query, to single out single user undeleted (which assumes a moderator) we get a much lower count of community involvement
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 8 at 16:35
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    The problem could perhaps be mitigated by introducing the ability to vote against deletion votes, while there are fewer than 3 deletion votes and the question is therefore still open. As things stand right now, you may see that someone has voted to delete a question, and you may disagree with their vote, but there is nothing you can do about it. Once the question is deleted, there will never be anything you can do about it. Being able to counter-balance deletion votes would certainly help.
    – Mike Nakis
    Commented Feb 9 at 3:53
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    "Other ideas?" If you really, really think that the content was good, post it in your name with attribution and after reformulation and see how it goes. Commented Feb 9 at 9:26

3 Answers 3

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This is a natural effect of deleted content being less discoverable than undeleted content. While it's true that users with 10,000+ reputation can see deleted posts, they can't search for them (consequently deleted questions also don't show up in question pages, which behave similarly to searches).

It's also due to there being a higher bar for undeletion than deletion. Yes, it's 3 votes either way, but for something to be deleted, the following threshold had to be met:

  • For questions, anywhere from 1-3 users had to determine a question was not worth keeping open (fewer users needed to close the more "authority" they have, generally speaking), and then potentially 3 completely different users (but sometimes the same users) felt the question was so problematic that it ought to be deleted.

  • For answers, 3 users of 20,000+ reputation consider the answer so problematic that it ought to be deleted.

The higher bar for undeletion comes from the reason for deletion in the first place. 3 users aren't just going to undelete a question or answer just because it is deleted (usually--disputes over deletion do occur); there has to be a change in the post to fix the cause for deletion before it is considered worthy of undeletion.

Often, the problem that prompted deletion is inherently not fixable... a post that answers a question using the wrong language, or a post that is a link-only answer to a webpage that is now dead and has no archived version available. Et cetera.

In cases where the reason is fixable, it still requires often significant effort from the author to rectify... and authors are often unwilling to put in that effort, especially inexperienced ones who think deletion is a personal slight against them rather than the content they posted.


N.B. - As far as I'm aware, a user cannot unilaterally undelete a post that has been fully delete-voted by 3 10k+ or 20k+ users (excepting moderators and staff, of course); they can only do so when they self-deleted the post.


Can we tweak how it works to make it more useful? Decrease the required number of undelete votes to 2? Add deleted posts with a single undelete vote to some review queue?

I don't think reducing the required number of undelete votes to 2 is a good idea. If OP votes to undelete, that's already only two other people they need to agree with them. With two votes, I think it's too easy to find a single other sympathetic user to help delete or undelete posts (because you'd naturally need to change the threshold for deletion to 2 as well, to keep things equitable).

As for some sort of way to view undelete votes, there is already the 10k+ tools page which includes a tab/view showing recent undelete votes, etc. While there is no "oldest votes", there is a "recent votes" section. I would support that section being sortable to show "oldest votes" instead if a user wished to do so. Personally I wish the lists on that page also showed which posts would be deleted by Roomba to save me some clicks.

I don't think adding a review queue would be useful, because we already don't have enough users to keep up with review tasks. And the relatively small pool of users with the right permissions, who are also willing and able to review thoroughly is why we don't have a deletion review queue in the first place.

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    If something really needs undeleting, SOCVR is the place to ask; however mind the no-self rule. You can't have an answer on the question.
    – Joshua
    Commented Feb 8 at 18:09
  • FWIW, answer authors can undelete posts that were deleted via "recommend delete" in review - there are caveats to that, but it's probably the most effective vote outside of mods and 10k-ers who collaborate.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 9 at 21:23
  • "a post that answers a question using the wrong language" - that doesn't seem to me as an unfixable problem. The post can always be translated.
    – The_spider
    Commented Feb 11 at 9:48
  • "because you'd naturally need to change the threshold for deletion to 2 as well, to keep things equitable" - Why should things be equitable? Can't the fact that deleted posts are harder to find be a justification forhaving a lower delete vote treshold?
    – The_spider
    Commented Feb 11 at 9:51
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    @The_spider Things shouldn't be equitable. But they should actually be inequitable in the other direction: deletion should be easier than undeletion due to the inherent fact that quality is rarer than junk, and the fact that the value of a curated collection lies in said curation, not in the lack of it. However, since the masses would probably complain about that, equitable is the best we can probably hope for.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 12 at 15:20
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I posted this as a comment which received a bunch of upvotes, so maybe it is worth posting as an answer.

Undelete votes are not effective at all, due to all the reasons that have already been mentioned, which basically culminate to the following single reason:

Undelete votes are not effective because they are only allowed to be cast after the fact of deletion, but by that time, it is too late.

As things stand right now, you may see that someone has voted to delete a question, and you may disagree with their vote, but there is nothing you can do about it. Once the question is deleted, there will never be anything you can do about it. So, being able to counter-balance deletion votes before it is too late would probably help.

So, the problem could possibly be mitigated by introducing the ability to vote against deletion votes, while there are fewer than 3 deletion votes and the question is therefore still open.

In this sense, "undelete" votes would be thought of more as "do-not-delete" votes.

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    Unless I'm mistaken, however, isnt this how close and reopen votes work. The question may leave the review queue for closure, but the 1+ close votes will still persist until they age away. Another user can't add a "don't close" vote. The problem isn't solely related to (un)delete votes. This is not me saying that there shouldn't be changes.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 9 at 13:55
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    @ThomA I think a major difference is that closed questions don't lose visibility in the same way as deleted questions & answers do (by design). There's also an entire queue devoted to fostering reopenings of closed questions that someone believes should be reopened, but nothing even close to such tooling exists for deletes.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 9 at 16:23
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    I don't disagree with that, @zcoop98 . My point is more that, in truth, I the "don't do something" feature isn't exclusive to deletes; and if a feature to add it is added it should likely be extended to over vote types. I've seen multiple questions be closed after they have been improved because of pile on votes, because it was at 2 votes when it was bad, and the other users haven't revoked those votes (perhaps because they haven't visited the question again, or forgot to).
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 9 at 16:57
  • or perhaps because it hasn't actually been improved. Deletion is a step past closure. If it's taken so long for a post to be improved that it's attracted 3 10k+ users to manually cast delete votes on it... it probably deserves them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9 at 16:59
  • This is why I was explicit and stated "closed after they have been improved" @KevinB .
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 9 at 17:02
  • @ThomA i'm aware, however, it's relatively common for people to claim their post has been "improved" and warrants being reopened or undeleted when they clearly haven't been. Given my explicit statement "hasn't actually been improved"
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9 at 17:02
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    Yes, and I'm aware of that, @KevinB, but I'm not talking from the perspective of the user who "improved" their question (by adding a capital letter to a keyword), but the user who has watched another's improved question be closed due to pile on votes. If I were talking about a question i'd asked, I would have said "My question(s)".
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 9 at 17:04
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    The time for improvement was prior to deletion anyway. In the overwhelming majority of cases, deletion occurs a week+, if not a month+ after the question is posted. undeletion is primarily for cases where deletion was unwarranted... It's always going to be more likely to result in a positive outcome to create a new question in these cases than reviving a deleted one. The only reason people often want to improve and undelete such a post is because they can't post new ones.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 9 at 17:09
  • Why does an undelete vote only being castable once a question is deleted make it "not effective?" What definition are you using for the word "effective" here? "Once the question is deleted, there will never be anything you can do about it." Uh, what? I'd ask if you have heard of the undelete vote mechanism, because it seems like you haven't, but that's exactly what this Q&A thread is about... so... what is your answer attempting to say? It's completely unclear. I suspect the "bunch of upvotes" your comment received where just knee-jerk reactions of deletion victims.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 12 at 15:22
  • @TylerH it has been explained in other answers to this question that once something gets deleted, it is not discoverable anymore.
    – Mike Nakis
    Commented Feb 12 at 15:24
  • @MikeNakis So, you're saying what, exactly? Users with the ability to delete/undelete who see a post with delete votes and think "this shouldn't be deleted" can bookmark the post to come back later and undelete vote if it gets deleted, or follow it using the Follow function and be notified of deletion as well without having to manually check. Discoverability is not needed. Aside from that, three undelete votes still undelete a post. That's what "effective" means, AFAIK, so it's still unclear what you mean by "effective". Maybe you mean it's "more difficult" to undelete at the same scale?
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 12 at 15:26
  • But if so, you need to make a convincing argument for why it should not be more difficult to reverse the action of multiple users who saw a post and thought "this is so bad it doesn't even belong on the site".
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 12 at 15:27
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Since people in the comments were sharing graphs (and claiming declines in effectiveness)...

Rene's query included all undeletion votes, and Ryan's version excluded undeletions by the post owner, but still included unilateral undeletions (such as those cast by a mod). I wrote a version that only includes deletions that involved multiple undelete voters (so it still includes undeletions that were finished off by a mod, but I think it's better at representing what's of interest here).

https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1818699#graph

It looks pretty stable to me overall, and I'd even say that aside from some historical spikes (that I don't know the reason for), it looks (relatively speaking) much less affected than other site usage patterns by large-scale fluctuations in site traffic (such as happened due to certain events from the past year-ish).

As for why undeletions don't get much attention, Tyler already gave a good explanation. Most people don't see deleted posts, and of those who can, most don't find reason to want to look at the tooling that shows information about it, and the tooling isn't amazing either.


For the record, undeletion by flagging for moderator attention might be a "faster track", though of course, that DOES NOT mean you should mod flag something for undeletion just because you want it to be undeleted- especially if you yourself have the privilege to cast undelete votes.

A query for unilateral undeletions that weren't "caused" by the post owner (though they could very well be due to mod undeletions as a result of the post owner flagging their deleted post): https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1818701#graph


I also tried to write a version that compares non-unilateral vs. unilateral, and deletion vs. undeletion, but sadly, info about posts that are currently deleted (including the history events) is mostly stripped out of SEDE, so it doesn't have the effect I wanted. But here it is in case you're interested. I would have tried to take it further and made it differentiate between self-deletions/undeletions and Roomba deletions.

SELECT
  --H.PostId AS [Post Link],
  --H.Text,
  EOMONTH(H.CreationDate) AS MonthBucket,
  T.Type,
  COUNT(*) AS [Count]
FROM PostHistory H
CROSS APPLY (
  SELECT 
  CASE
    --WHEN H.PostHistoryTypeId = 12 AND H.Text COLLATE Latin1_General_BIN NOT LIKE '%,{"Id"%' THEN   'deleted:unilateral'
    WHEN H.PostHistoryTypeId = 12 AND H.Text COLLATE Latin1_General_BIN     LIKE '%,{"Id"%' THEN   'deleted:non-unilateral'
    --WHEN H.PostHistoryTypeId = 13 AND H.Text COLLATE Latin1_General_BIN NOT LIKE '%,{"Id"%' THEN 'undeleted:unilateral'
    WHEN H.PostHistoryTypeId = 13 AND H.Text COLLATE Latin1_General_BIN     LIKE '%,{"Id"%' THEN 'undeleted:non-unilateral'
    ELSE NULL
  END AS Type
) AS T
WHERE
  H.PostHistoryTypeId IN (12,13) -- undeletion
  AND T.Type IS NOT NULL
GROUP BY
  EOMONTH(H.CreationDate),
  T.Type
ORDER BY MonthBucket ASC
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    I don’t think the curve being almost flat is indicative of anything. The post count has grown massively over the years and more people should have gained undeletion privileges. So all things being equal (mind, that is quite an assumption) undeletions should have gone up significantly. So we’re back to whether things aren’t being undeleted because content is just bad or because tooling is bad. Commented Feb 9 at 5:43
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    @MisterMiyagi both? I flag and del-vote tons of non-answers every day (pretty much every day for the past over a year now). content is bad. I can't super confidently that tooling is bad, but if there are a lot of posts that should be undeleted, I am not hearing about them (which could be a third option: people don't know that they can appeal a deletion, though I suppose that could come down to interfaces being bad, which is just tooling being bad).
    – starball
    Commented Feb 9 at 6:46
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    The tooling is bad though. Because I read this question here on Meta.SO I went to the 10k tools on my main site to look at the posts with undelete votes and I voted myself on posts that I think should be undeleted. This is something I normally never do because it is not part of the regular workflows. If it was a review queue then I would look at it at least once per week. Maybe on SO this wouldn't work because the queues are always full but on other sites it would be helpful.
    – Marijn
    Commented Feb 9 at 9:32
  • Looks like your query isn't quite right. For example, it includes undeletes by Shog9 on this post
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 9 at 11:48
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    Give this query a go, where I consume the JSON text to get the distinct number of voters from the Text column and separate into Single User and Multi-User undeletes. If you want a version that just has Multi-Users, I ran that too.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 9 at 13:07

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