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For the backstory, see this post about prematurely deleted, user-targeted "please see my update" comments.

Motivation:

  • Prevent comment proliferation by making a dedicated flag available to post owners in the following scenarios:

    • In a comment, the post owner of a question has been asked for clarification / has been encouraged to include additional information.

    • In a comment, the post owner of an answer has been asked for clarification of aspects of the answer, typically by the asker.

  • The new flag would allow the post owner - after having updated the question / answer - to combine the "no longer needed" (NLN) flag with an automated behind-the-scenes notification of the commenter (whose identity is implied by the comment being flagged) that their comment has been addressed in an update to the post, as fleshed out below.

    • To be clear: Not all comments warrant updating of the post in response, but it is common especially for questions, and often useful for answers, assuming that the update is of general interest: instead of responding in a comment - creating noise that may have to be cleaned up later - the post itself is improved.

    • The notification should be omitted if the commenter is already following the post in question.

Benefits:

  • Ephemeral comments whose only information content is "please see my update" are prevented - no need for later cleanup.

  • Commenters are notified of post updates that are likely important to them, which is especially important for new and inexperienced / casual users.

    • Yes, there is the option to 'Follow' a post, BUT:

      • Update: tl;dr: No one should have to 'Follow' a post if all they care about is reliably getting notified of targeted replies, which overzealous flaggers can currently prevent.

      • It is an advanced feature inexperienced users are unlikely to be aware of.

      • Those who do know the feature must (a) remember to use it and (b) may choose not to use it, so as not to be inundated with potentially unwanted, numerous notifications such as incidental post edits.

  • The notification is combined with cleanup of the comment.

Suggested implementation:

  • Provide a new flag - available to the post owner only - labeled something like this:

    • "No longer needed. Also notify the commenter that their comment has been addressed in an update to the post."
  • The flag would act as follows:

    • As with current "No longer needed" flags, a moderator would have to agree in order to get the comment removed.

    • Irrespective of whether removal is approved, and assuming the commenter doesn't already follow the post, a notification is sent to the commenter using a canned message, something like:

      • "You have posted a comment at <clickable link>, and the post owner has indicated that they have addressed the issue raised in you comment in an update to the post."

To address feedback:

  • A recurring theme in the comments, re potential for abuse and unilateral notifications:

    • The proposed flag constitutes as much or as little potential for abuse as @-targeted reply comments already do - and to me such targeting is an invaluable part of the commenting system.

    • The new flag would simply streamlines the process and cut down on comment noise.

    • In other words: Via @-pinging, users already have the power to unilaterally notify others - this proposal doesn't introduce anything new. The discussion of whether unilateral notifications in general are worth having is an entirely separate debate.

  • If there's concern about the proposed new form of unilateral notification occurring behind the scenes, the notification aspect too could be made contingent on moderator approval.

    • Personally, I don't see the need for that, especially given that user do not control the content of the proposed notifications.

    • Someone abusing it to annoy another users could easily be addressed by raising the issue with moderators. Also note that this can happen at most once for a given comment a user has made.

  • Re making the flag available to others too, not just the post owner:

    • I am open to that; my initial thought was it would only be of interest to post owners, but users who edit someone else's post may want to use it too.
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  • 3
    This would also help with updates that address multiple people's comments. As you can only @mention one person per comment, askers often end up posting multiple "@person please see update" comments in this scenario.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:04
  • 4
    Why is the decision to notify up to post owner? If a commenter wants to be informed about changes, they can follow the post. If they don't want to be informed, well, why encourage someone else to prod them? Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:06
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    @MisterMiyagi, the decision is already up to the post owner: They can always post an @-targeted comment - and this proposal would eliminate that noise, especially if the only content of the comment would be "see my update".
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:08
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    @mklement0 "discussed" is a strange term for only alleging ignorance and forgetfulness. Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:12
  • 4
    @mklement0 You've just shut down my arguments with a blanket "it's already been discussed". How should one engage with that? oO Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:13
  • 6
    What prevents the author of the question from abusing the flag and unnecessarily pinging other users? Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:14
  • 3
    @mklement0 I called the assertion that the feature was discussed "strange". The actual arguments I would call patronising. They appear to deny the very agency of people to decide whether they want to be informed. In essence, I said "I have agency to decide when to follow and would like that to be respected". Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:36
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    "There is the option to 'Follow' a post, BUT: It is an advanced feature inexperienced users are unlikely to be aware of." The follow option is not advanced at all, and it's right there in front of users at the bottom of every post they read. Hovering over it or clicking on it tells you exactly what it does: notifies you of updates. I'm not convinced we need this as an improvement here. Maybe the "Follow" feature should be changed to only follow edits to the post rather than all the other actions it follows, instead.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:02
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    @mklement0 Not paying attention to site features does not make them advanced or esoteric. It makes users lazy. I don't particularly want to cater to lazy users. Not when there are far more important things SO devs could be working on.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:16
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    @TylerH, I should never have engaged the 'Follow' debate: it is irrelevant. It is unrelated to receiving the targeted notifications that this suggestion is about. No one should have to 'Follow' a post if all they care about is reliably getting notified of targeted replies, which overzealous flaggers can currently prevent.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:24
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    @mklement0 - They have abused it. I have been called absolutely horrible things in a comment. We don’t need additional ways to ping users. Commented May 5, 2023 at 23:39
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    @SecurityHound I don't see the relevance of abusive comments like that to this proposal. The users can already ping people with abusive comments. This is giving them a way to do it in which they cannot insert abuse.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 23:42
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    You claim the "follow" function is too advanced/unknown, but then propose a more complex feature that relies on users that aren't even interested in moderation tools. That's not going to work at all. Do you remember the "thanks" reacts, that were supposed to reduce the "thanks" comments? They didn't work. It only added more noise.
    – gre_gor
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 5:17
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    @RyanM Out of interest, how many (ballpark figure would suffice) “I addressed your comment” comments are actually accompanied with flagging the addressed comment? Usually, I am the one cleaning up after seeing an update (provided the comments were actually addressed). This would suggest many post owners just ping, they don’t flag for removal in the first place. Am I just exposed only to a niche or is this usually the case? Commented May 6, 2023 at 5:40
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    @gre_gor, while I do think that 'Follow' is an advanced function that inexperienced users are unlikely to use, I have since realized that discussing it is incidental to this suggestion, because you shouldn't have to follow a post just to receive a targeted notification. The proposed new flag would indeed primarily benefit experienced who know how to flag, probably more answers than askers, given that many frequent contributors answer more questions than they ask. Experienced users are precisely the target audience. By contrast, I can see why the thank-you experiment failed.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 11:14

5 Answers 5

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I don't see a point in this.

If I want to be informed about changes of a post, I follow it. If I don't want to be informed, then I don't follow it. It's really not a feature that is super advanced or hard or difficult to remember.
The button is readily visible and actually very close to the comment section.

That people feel the need to create additional pings via comments is unfortunate. But often enough, not just the comment is noise but the ping as well. Giving authors a reminder that they could ping everyone who commented seems at best neutral in terms of removing noise.

That said, in situation where a ping is appropriate, it's not clear to me why the author should be the only one to raise them. We have heaps of curators that comment, review, edit. An initial comment may just as well become obsolete due an edit or even a general, clarifying comment by anyone else.

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  • Pings in comments are a valuable tool. As any tool, it can be abused. The premise of the suggestion pertains to appropriate pings, as described. I'm personally open to letting others raise this flag too.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:31
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    @mklement0 Limiting the discussion to appropriate pings seems to be begging the question. Lot's of things would be useful if only used appropriately. The big problem is that very often they aren't. Giving people the option to invisibly prod others while also nuking comments seems very open to be used not just appropriately. Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:48
  • Nothing would change with respect to nuking comments - moderators would have to agree. If abuse is really a concern, the notification part could be tied to moderator approval too.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:50
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    As I said the last time the follow feature was raised as a solution to this: The "Follow" button produces an absolute torrent of notifications when you want one. As currently implemented, it's not a very good solution to this problem.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:07
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    @RyanM I follow practically every single question or answer to which I add a significant comment or vote. I'm well aware of its shortcomings. That doesn't mean that this proposal is automatically better. That one notification I want usually isn't when the OP is totally convinced they addressed everything, unlike last time, or the time before. Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:21
  • @MisterMiyagi, the proposal isn't automatically better, it is better for the reasons stated (now updated to address the 'Follow' fallacy).
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 23:11
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    @RyanM can only speak for myself, but I've been following each and every post I make any action on (apart from a subset of flagging actions), even wrote a publicly available script for doing this automatically. Never had an issue with managing notifications (certainly not on main) - there was an inconvenience with notifications being marked as read all at once before the inbox change, but even that is a non-issue now. Even following meta posts doesn't result in an unmanageable stream of notifications.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 0:37
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    @mklement0 I urge you to stop this "discussion" style of simply asserting your stated reasons are sufficient and brandishing disagreement as fallacies. Following isn’t a fallacy, I can attest it works well for me and apparently, judging by comments, for others too. I consider your dismissal of my person and agency like that as highly offensive. FWIW, this is exactly the kind of situation in which I don’t trust the author to decide for me that they have addressed my concerns. Commented May 6, 2023 at 5:29
  • @MisterMiyagi: Stating that something is a particular, named fallacy is an argument - a shorthand for a common logical error. If you disagree that it applies, argue why it doesn't. No one is disregarding people and their agency here; I haven't "dismissed" your points, I've argued against them. Such perceptions are your choice, and I urge you to stop writing comments fueled by them. The only productive forward that doesn't cause bad vibes is to either engage the arguments, or - if you believe that you've made your points but aren't being heard - to stop commenting.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 10:39
  • My (accidental) bad: I thought you were talking about the named fallacy I referenced in a comment on Karl's answer and the ones mentioned in this previous post. In the case at hand, "'Follow' fallacy" was shorthand too: for the arguments in the updated initial post, which my comment explicitly mentioned, arguing that and why the 'Follow' feature isn't relevant to this proposal, which you're still free to engage with. Disagreement and arguments aren't dismissal - conflating them is a recipe for misery.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 12:01
  • With my mistake regarding what I thought you were referring to corrected, I am now taking my own advice (again): I've made my points. I feel I have't been heard. I am opting out of this conversation.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 12:01
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    @mklement0 Your points haven’t been heard because they are plastered over multiple Q&A and somehow you expect people (or at least me) to magically be able to piece all of that together. If you want to take another shot, please do so, but do so realistically. If you want to opt-out, then do so - don’t keep on talking while you say you stop. Commented May 6, 2023 at 12:06
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. Commented May 8, 2023 at 1:37
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Sometimes, people comment on an answer requesting clarification because there is something actually confusing (or incomplete, ambiguous, etc.) about the answer that really ought to be cleaned up for everyone's benefit. This is all well and good; answers exist for everyone's benefit, after all. The answerer can take this feedback into consideration, improve the answer, and mark the comment NLN. There is no good reason to notify the commenter, because the changes are not made for the commenter's benefit, but for everyone's. The commenter should not be motivated by self interest, because this is not a discussion forum.

Other times, people comment requesting clarification because of some idiosyncratic, personal concern - i.e., "how do I apply this advice in my particular situation?" In general, we don't teach or mentor here - this is not a discussion forum. However, if there is genuinely something interesting about the commenter's situation that makes the existing answer not apply - while also not substantially critiquing it as an answer to the OP - this indicates that the commenter really has a new question that should be asked separately, clearly distinguished from the current one, and focused on the aspect that isn't already addressed in this answer. Either way, these requests for clarification are not ordinarily useful. They should just be marked NLN. Responding to them encourages inappropriate use of the software as if it were a discussion forum, which it is not.

That said, generally it might be useful if new users received automated feedback from the system the first few times that their comments were removed as NLN, perhaps with a hyperlink to a help page about commenting policy.

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    FWIW: handling "No longer needed" flags on substantive comments is often...tricky. It can be hard to tell why the flagger thinks it's no longer needed, and if it's something related to technical merits, then we're trying to make a technical call in an area where we're not necessarily a subject-matter expert, often with no explanation from the flagger.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 0:28
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    @RyanM one of the many conclusions I've drawn is that SO suffers greatly from trying to cover all programming topics under one roof. It'd be really nice if a SME were reliably on hand for moderation. Commented May 6, 2023 at 0:30
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    That said, the idiosyncratic ones are pretty easy to judge (pretty much always remove). I would think those would just continue to be flagged as NLN, even if this or a similar feature were implemented.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 0:30
  • False dichotomy: "There is no good reason to notify the commenter, because the changes are not made for the commenter's benefit, but for everyone's"
    – mklement0
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 1:36
  • @mklement0 no; the false dichotomy fallacy is when one's argument relies on falsely supposing that of two possibilities must necessarily be the case. I am not doing that here; I am, instead, asserting that one possibility is correct, and also denying that another possibility is correct. While there are other possible answers to the question "for whose benefit are these edits?", those are also incorrect. For example, it would be incorrect to say that the edits are for the benefit of everyone except the commenter - fortunately, I didn't say that. Commented May 7, 2023 at 22:31
  • Except you are saying that: "not for the commenter's benefit". If you had said "not only for the commenter's benefit", it would be a different story. But doing so would contradict what you're advocating for here, and have advocated for before: either not notifying a commenter at all of an important update, or - by premature removal - depriving them of a notification explicitly targeted to them.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 7, 2023 at 22:49
4

Whatever other valid objections one may have to this (which I'm not addressing here), I object to the idea that the "Follow" feature solves this problem. This proposal may or may not be the right solution for this problem, but the "Follow" feature, as it exists today, is not.

When I vote on a question and leave a comment describing the reason for that vote, I want to be notified in one circumstance only: someone (probably the asker) believes that the issue I described has been addressed.

I do not want to be notified if:

  • Someone tweaked the tags on the question
  • Someone has told the asker to read the Tour and How to Ask
  • Someone else's comment has been addressed
  • Someone posted an answer
  • The question was closed (that was probably what I was trying to achieve with my vote1!)
  • Someone edited something in the question unrelated to my comment, like fixing spelling/grammar
  • Someone is having a long multi-comment back-and-forth in the comments with the asker trying to clarify the issues and get the question fixed.

All of these things generate notifications for followed questions! The last one generates quite a few! They are all pretty common occurrences! It makes the inbox borderline unusable, and so I basically never follow questions2, even though I would generally like to revisit questions I've commented on if someone believes the issue is fixed.


1: Obviously not applicable to me on Stack Overflow, because I'm a moderator and can unilaterally close questions, but applies to the network in general and to everyone else who's not a moderator.
2: ...except for moderation purposes, where I do in fact often want to know if anything happens on a specific post.

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    I think most of that could be solved by a more fine grained "follow" feature. Relying on users to properly use "this edit addresses this comment" is not going to work. Just like a lot of closed posts are pushed into the reopen queue by useless edits from OP.
    – gre_gor
    Commented May 6, 2023 at 5:24
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    "someone (probably the asker) believes that the issue I described has been addressed" Judging by how often I have seen closed questions with the “close reason was addressed” bit set when it was totally inappropriate, I am having a hard time entrusting this to the asker. Yes, the follow feature isn’t ideal but that means we need realistic improvements that are feasible in practice. Commented May 6, 2023 at 5:48
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If I leave a comment on a question suggesting the user simplify their code snippet, or add a code snippet, or anything else, I don't need to know when they've done it, I've moved on, there's 20 million other questions. If there's an exception and I do want to be notified when things change with a given question, I can use the feature that was built for that purpose. If that feature is too noisy, or not working well... maybe that should be the feature request.

You've asked the equivalent of an X/Y question. You've identified that it's problematic when OP's (mis?)use the comment feature to notify past users that a problem has been resolved, when in reality the OP should be flagging those comments as no longer needed given the problems have been resolved. You're proposing a feature to normalize users abusing the comment feature to produce extraneous notifications that no one has asked for.

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I agree with this.

I recently posted a question and two people asked for some details. So, after seeing both and edited my question, I had to add two comments, like "@ someone Ok thanks. I just updated my post", which make appear "Show x more comments" and literally spam.

I understand some people don't want to have notifications, but if they ask for clarifying, why they would not see it? There isn't any reason except "I don't like notifications". So, maybe it can be fine if there is an option to disable tag notification or something, but it's another feature request.

Finally, we could also imagine a button to be notified when the user edit the post, which could work the same as "Add to review" button when edit a closed question.

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    I mean... i don't like notifications because the new inbox is absolutely awful. If i want to be notified of a post being updated I'll subscribe to it. That's opt-in and non-intrusive. Yes, people can still @ me directly if they want, however that gives me an opportunity to give mods more work.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:19
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    In defense of this: by posting a comment, you are opening yourself up to being pinged. That is just how comments work on Stack Exchange! People reflexively removing these follow-up pings via flags are preventing the comment system from working as designed.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:20
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    Also re: "an opportunity to give mods more work" - this proposal seems to reduce the number of NLN flags mods have to handle from 2 to 1 per comment requesting improvement (or fewer, if the person notified deletes the comment themself), as well as reducing the need to think about whether the comment still has value (i.e., notifying someone of an update they requested).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:22
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    No such comments should even exist. Implementing a feature that requires such comments to function is counter-productive.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:25
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    @KevinB, such comments (@-pinging users even with just an abstract note pointing to a post update) not only do exist, they are currently of vital importance until such time they've served their purpose. This proposal eliminates all related headaches: (a) overzealous flaggers preventing the comments from serving their purpose via premature removal and (b) conversely, obsolete comments needlessly lingering.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 22:27
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    It's worth noting that some moderators find these sorts of NLN flags unhelpful, and will decline them if the user hasn't been online since the reply comment was posted. Unfortunately, due to regressions in the Stack Exchange platform making it more difficult for moderators to see the last-online time, this has become much harder.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 23:38

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