-20

Update: The discussion here led to the following feature request.


When askers provide feedback / ask for clarification on an answer of mine, and it warrants a response of general interest (as opposed to an incidental, ephemeral response), I respond by updating my answer rather than in a comment - I think this the preferable way to handle that.

Because I don't want to repeat the response in a comment, I usually just say, "@{user}, please see my update.", with no or little more context.

While such a comment is obviously of a transient nature, it is vital that the asker see it before it gets removed.

If it gets removed prematurely, everyone loses:

  • The asker never learns of the update and may not get their problem solved.

  • Future readers see only the asker's outdated comment which no longer matches the answer, amounting to a confusing distraction.

Anecdotally, I've seen many of my "Please see my update" comments disappear not long after posting, before the asker has had a chance to see them.

I don't know the cause:

  • (a) "No longer needed" flaggers, with moderators obliging due to lack of context?
  • (b) Some automated mechanism?

If (a), I suggest abstaining from flagging such comments unless either a reasonably long time has passed or you've personally verified that the recipient has seen the comment (as can be guessed from whether they've visited the site since).

If (b), I suggest either making the mechanism smart enough to not delete until either some time after the recipient has read the comment notification or not until a reasonably long time has passed, say two weeks.


To address the comment suggesting explicit opt-in via following an answer:

  • As a commenter - especially an inexperienced one - it is reasonable to expect to be notified automatically.

    • Even experienced users have a reasonable expectation of @-addressed comments reaching them.

    • Inexperienced user may not even know of the option to follow a post.

  • In other words:

    • Don't put the burden of an additional, non-obvious step which shouldn't be necessary on someone who has already posted a comment with the implicit and reasonable expectation to be notified of reply comments.

    • The net effect of doing so makes the two problems described above persist.

    • Even those who know about the 'Follow' feature may not want to use it, because, as Ryan M points out in the comments, "the 'Follow' button produces an absolute torrent of notifications when you want one. It's not a very good solution to this problem."

In short:

  • Prematurely removing @-addressed comments amounts to inappropriate interference with the notification system - to everyone's detriment.
18
  • 14
    if the user wants to be notified of updates, they could always click teh follow button.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 4, 2023 at 21:24
  • 3
    @KevinB, yes, if they (a) know that's an option and (b) remember to do it in a given case. Given the @-notification system, it is reasonable to expect a notification that way, without having to take extra action.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 4, 2023 at 21:27
  • 3
    Yes, but if I don't flag them I don't get badges, and there's nothing more important in life than getting badges. Sleep? Shelter? Food? That stuff's all for pansies. Gimme the badges! Commented May 4, 2023 at 21:45
  • 5
    The "Follow" button produces an absolute torrent of notifications when you want one. It's not a very good solution to this problem.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 4, 2023 at 22:59
  • 2
    @user4581301 I can assure you, as an obsessive site curator, badges are the absolute last thing on my mind. I couldn't even tell you offhand what badges are available as a result of flagging comments. I'm not even sure offhand that there are any. Commented May 5, 2023 at 1:44
  • @KarlKnechtel Citizen Patrol, Deputy and Marshal. Commented May 5, 2023 at 6:22
  • Re badges (sarcastic?): The reference might be cringeworthy, but Atwood used the reference. Commented May 5, 2023 at 15:47
  • I'm cool with the culture changing under me. When a culture tries to hold onto the past too tightly, it falls apart. Commented May 5, 2023 at 17:25
  • "If it gets removed prematurely, everyone loses: The asker never learns of the update and may not get their problem solved." Citation needed--you think the asker won't ever revisit the question or answer to see if it was updated? "Not notified" is not the same as "Never sees". Also, how should we know when OP has seen such a comment? We can't check their "last active" date in the profile now since SO in their infinite wisdom removed it to make the site harder to use.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:56
  • @TylerH, the source of the quote is this post.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 20:58
  • 1
    @mklement0 I don't follow? You are linking to the post we are already on. To be clear, by "citation needed", I am not saying "where is this quote from" (I added the quotation marks, btw), I am saying "please show proof of this".
    – TylerH
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:03
  • @TylerH, I was having a bit of fun. Picture this: You're a new user. You post a question. You get notified of every comment posted on your question. You get notified of every answer that gets posted. Life is good. You post a comment on an answer because it doesn't (quite) do it for you. You never hear back, because an overzealous flagger has zapped a reply comment. Do you go back to see if the answer fairies have magically and silently updated the answer overnight? I don't think so.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 21:39
  • @mklement0 then you think wrong, because as an asker it is your responsibility (and in your interest) to go back and look at your own question and any updates therein that may have been posted since you last visited. We require this behavior already for askers in general (e.g. askers should respond to comments for clarification with some level of promptness). I also don't think there is that much deletion of clarification/response comments going on as the post here suggests.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 10, 2023 at 21:34
  • it's certainly possible that certain patterns of comment usage could result in increased instances of seeing useless comments deleted.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 10, 2023 at 21:41
  • 1
    @MarkAmery: One problem begets the other: if the asker is never notified, they can't acknowledge the resolution in a response comment. The latter often happens if they do see the please-see-my-update comment, after which, ideally, the then-obsolete comments exchange gets cleaned up (it is what I personally do: once resolution has been reached, I delete my comments and flag the other half of the exchange as no longer needed; sometimes, this cleanup is coordinated directly with the asker). The linked feature request would solve these problems.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jun 14 at 11:44

6 Answers 6

13

I agree with you in spirit, but in practice this doesn't really scale.

Keeping up to date with responses to their question is the OP's responsibility and obligation. This enables timely feedback and clarification as necessary. If they require a workflow where they're always notified of changes and we're the ones that have to initiate that, then the OP is derelict in their responsibilities.

5
  • In the case at hand it is I who is initiating the notification, specifically targeting the (often inexperienced) asker, and I'm fine with that - it's just that someone's interfering with the way the notification system is designed to work, by inappropriately deciding that the comment should be removed before the recipient has seen it.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 4, 2023 at 22:09
  • That's usually a diamond mod, though. Or, the system is determining that this kind of comment is "too conversational". In the latter I could see how that could be frustrating, but in the former I would rather have a conversation with diamond mods to see how they want to solve this problem instead.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 4, 2023 at 22:32
  • My guess is that moderators act only on flags raised by others - and I understand that moderators don't have the bandwidth to look at the specific context, nor should they be expected to. Clearly, a technological solution is possible here: delay deletion until (a fixed time after) the targeted user has acknowledged their notification of the comment.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 4, 2023 at 22:47
  • "it's just that someone's interfering with the way the notification system is designed to work, by inappropriately deciding that the comment should be removed before the recipient has seen it.", => nope, not really, if you (@OP) pinged back the User with some \@their_username, they will still get some Notif, even if your Comment gets deleted, then it's their "responsibility" to check the Thread and probably your Answer to find out why they got a Notif about this Thread... [Mini-test, you got a Notif about my Comment, and you are not even mentioned in it.. "Ra-ra, hoe kan dat...!?"]
    – chivracq
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 2:22
  • @chivracq, I did not get a notification (and given that this isn't my post and you didn't @-mention me, I wouldn't expect to get one) - I came across your comment by sheer. While I don't know how it works behind the scenes, in my experience deleted comments also result in deleted notifications. Even if they persisted, their pointing nowhere and the comment's content having been lost is no substitute for a proper notification. See my answer for a possible solution via a new flag.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 16:40
11

The solution is simple: just don't leave such comments at all.

If the user wants to be notified they will follow the post. If they don't know about this feature, they will learn.

If you think the comment is no longer needed after your update, then flag OP's comment as no longer needed. Don't add more no longer needed comments on top.

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  • 3
    The kind of user you have in mind is a figment of your imagination that shouldn't be expected to exist (and even those who know how to follow posts may not want that, as @RyanM has pointed out). It's spelled out in the updated OP, but in a nutshell: Users have a reasonable expectation to be notified of replies to comments they leave on a specific post. That's what @ notifications are for. Interfering with that is a disservice to everyone. Suggesting that askers be cut out of the loop by default - potentially depriving them of solutions - sounds like a cruel joke, frankly.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 1:11
  • 1
    If you want an example of what I am talking about, take a look at this answer and its edit history. It's always a judgment call as to how much explanatory information to include in an answer. Sometimes what may be obvious to the answerer isn't to the asker. So, upon feedback, the answer can be expanded to include further information, potentially to everyone's benefit. No chit-chat, no personal pinging in the answer. However, the asker will want to know about this update and has a justified expectation to be notified automatically.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 1:30
6

I'm a little surprised to find myself explaining most of the following to someone with a 6-digit reputation score (a top 0.01% user of the site!), with dozens of gold badges, who has been around since mere months after the creation of the site. However, you have been very polite and understanding in asking about this, and clearly do care about following site policies - it just appears that answering a lot of questions (and asking a few questions that were quite well received, including some with what look like really impressive self-answers) doesn't necessarily result in understanding what we want the site to be. (The current understanding has also evolved a fair bit over time, although I feel like we'd all be in a much better place if that understanding had been in place from the beginning. I know I would have treated many of my old answers much differently.)

So, I will be firm below, but I don't want to give the impression of berating you, as I sometimes do with other experienced users on Meta. Per the standard I have adopted, boldface emphasis below is purely for summary; italic emphasis is for other things that need to be stressed.

Onward:

While such a comment is obviously of a transient nature, it is vital that the asker see it before it gets removed.

No, it really isn't. It's not even the slightest bit important here.

We have no way to know whether the asker will keep the page open and see such a comment within the next few minutes, or will go to sleep and see it the next day, or will never come back at all.

But more importantly, editing answers to improve them is about the answer, not any specific individual who found fault with the previous version of the answer (including its author). As you correctly note, the comment is of a transient nature. Ideally, all comments are of a transient nature, because this is not a discussion forum.

The asker never learns of the update and may not get their problem solved.

If the asker doesn't come back unprompted, that is the asker's fault for not having sufficient interest in the update to the answer. And again, answers here are not about solving any specific person's "problem"; they are about answering a question - the one asked at the top of the page.

Solving problems is only incidental, the bait used to prompt people to ask questions that are actually meaningful. (It's apparently not very good at getting high-quality questions, but sites that don't make some concessions to quantity over quality don't seem to survive very long.) Answer content should only be customized insofar as the asker's phrasing represents a typical misconception, or insofar as the specific details of a MRE (which should still be minimal and appropriately decontextualized) make it easier to talk about the underlying issue.

Future readers see only the asker's outdated comment which no longer matches the answer, amounting to a confusing distraction.

Yes; the comment no longer matches the answer, because you fixed the answer according to the only purpose (as far as we are concerned) that the comment serves. As above, comments are inherently of a transient nature. You should therefore flag these comments as "No Longer Needed". This is a textbook case for the flag.

I don't know the cause

It's a). Unless the comment happens to match very specific regexes, which are not really aimed at this particular situation, the comment needs to be flagged and then acted on by a moderator. Even if the comment does match a regex, it still requires a flag to be removed, the system only takes the moderator's approval out of the loop. (We aren't particularly concerned about this, because again, comments are supposed to be transient.)

If (a), I suggest abstaining from flagging such comments unless either a reasonably long time has passed or you've personally verified that the recipient has seen the comment

I will not do this, because:

  • It would greatly slow me down on an important curation task;

  • It would falsely encourage the perception of the site as a discussion forum.

As a commenter - especially an inexperienced one - it is reasonable to expect to be notified automatically.

If this were a discussion forum, that would be a reasonable expectation. As I said above, however, this is not a discussion forum. We do provide a very rudimentary chat feature for dealing with some special cases; and it is possible to attach messages to certain flags that will be seen by moderators; and we are experimenting with more direct feedback on questions with the new Staging Ground in the hope of getting better quality first questions. However, outside of specifically designated special cases, there is no reasonable expectation that ordinary users see any kind of user-targeted, meta-level message, ever. We don't have a DM system, by very carefully considered design.

7
  • I appreciate the thoughtful response (no sarcasm, to be clear), and I will, in due course, address your points in an answer of my own. Full disclosure: As a summary of sorts, let me express my disagreement with your points in the form of a down-vote.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 1:51
  • 8
    "berating you, as I sometimes do with other [...] users" Which is inappropriate so please stop doing it.
    – philipxy
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 1:54
  • @philipxy "berating" is colourful language on my part. I'm alluding to Meta answers such as meta.stackoverflow.com/a/424465/523612 - which seem to have been well received so far. I would of course only ever engage in this manner with people who really should know better, and only on Meta. Even then, I do not use insults and I try not to let emotion show through in my writing. I do point out that other users have done wrong and that it is entirely their own fault because the policy is clear and easily accessible - because those things are true and relevant. Commented May 7, 2023 at 22:37
  • 2
    I recalled that post as I wrote & it berates & bases that on a vague "should" know better. The post "should" state what "should" be done in a straightforward neutral manner. Consider: Why doesn't it? As to "well-received", it's currently voted +14 -3.
    – philipxy
    Commented May 8, 2023 at 1:59
  • What do you mean by "the asker will keep the page open"? Askers can't "close a page" here (they can close questions, but can only do so unilaterally when another user has recommended [read: flagged or voted to close] a duplicate target.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 10, 2023 at 21:37
  • @TylerH I mean in the sense of leaving a browser tab open on their own computer which displays the page, so that they can refresh it and will not forget about having asked the question. Commented May 10, 2023 at 22:43
  • 1
    "But more importantly, editing answers to improve them is about the answer, not any specific individual who found fault with the previous version of the answer" - sure, but a person who previously found fault is likely exceptionally qualified to review the edit, so it's useful to draw their attention to it and let them give a further round of feedback. Disrupting that process by nuking the notification before they have a reasonable chance to see it is bad not because it harms that particular user, but because it squanders an opportunity to further improve the answer.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 14 at 11:16
1

I think the wider problem here is that of signalling. Tagged comments send out a notification and that notification might be important, a signal of something wrong or missing that needs attention. But so is whether flags you cast are correct or not. Whether a question you asked has been answered. Whether questions or answers you posted are being upvoted or downvoted and especially several downvotes are a strong signal that requires immediate attention. Has any of your stuff been closed or even deleted? Whether comments you yourself posted have been addressed and can be removed. So many important signals you need to pay attention to and most do not originate from a comment tag.

There is only one way to catch them all - in your user CP, by looking at it. It has to be part of your daily routine to follow up on yourself and everything you do, not just comments aimed at you specifically.

So yeah, I agree that signalling is important. But since the site sends out too few of them or hides them in nag message boxes that modern internet users are trained to mentally block out, it is more prudent to make people aware of their user CP instead and get them to look there more frequently.

4
  • I'm asking innocently: what is a user's CP?
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 12:57
  • 1
    By CP do you mean user profile / activity? Do you mean "Control Panel"? Commented May 5, 2023 at 13:07
  • Leaving the mystery CP aside, I do go back to my comments and revisit old answers: If I didn't, I wouldn't notice comments getting prematurely deleted. So what you're recommending is the premise of my issue - and doesn't address the core concern: premature deletion of directly user-targeted comments. I don't think it's reasonable to expect all users to do what you suggest, especially inexperienced / occasional users - and they have a reasonable expectation of being notified of follow-up comments.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 14:32
  • 2
    CP? Comment something? It isn't in the glossary. A SIA? More options. Commented May 5, 2023 at 16:05
-2

The Help Center page about the comment privilege mentions this scenario as one of the examples in the "When should I comment?" section.

Add relevant but minor or transient information to a post (e.g. a link to a related question, or an alert to the author that the question has been updated).

That being so, we are talking about an expressly intended use of comments. As both you and the Help Center note, such comments are transient; however, they do need to stay visible for some time to be of any use. Without trying to set precise limits, it seems reasonable to remove them as no longer needed after, say, a week (at that point, the comment is unlikely to matter if the other party still hasn't seen it), but certainly not after an hour. Restraint in the use of No Longer Needed flags, as you suggest here, is indeed advisable as the most straightforward way of avoiding premature deletions, as opposed to shifting the burden to the moderators handling the flags or adding a special purpose notification mechanism.

On a final note, there are suggestions across this Q&A that the follow feature makes this kind of comment irrelevant. While I find that questionable, I'd also say it is besides the point. Short comment exchanges with other users who are engaged in improving one's post is an entirely normal kind of interaction on Stack Overflow, and there is no need to curtail or otherwise interfere with that.

3
  • Thank you; I hope you've noticed the link to the feature request that the discussion here led to.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 22:56
  • 1
    @mklement0 Yup, I did see it. I have no strong opinion on the proposed feature: it is a rather complicated mechanism that would be unnecessary if a little bit of restraint in flag casting could be counted upon, but alas.
    – duplode
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 23:13
  • I hear you re wishing for more restraint - it is what prompted this issue, after all. To me, the appeal of the proposed feature is to take the discretion of others out of the picture - and the proposed mechanism strikes me as pretty straightforward - at least in concept, if not necessarily in terms of implementation complexity - but I invite you to provide specific feedback there, if you disagree.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 5, 2023 at 23:20
-3

The salient points are in the updated original post, but some warrant elaboration; also, a technological solution is proposed, and some points made in Karl Knechtel's answer are addressed.


  • The (possibly inexperienced) asker's perspective:

    • They get automatically notified:

      • when someone comments on their question.
      • when an answer is posted.
      • when responded to in a comment left on a specific answers - unless interfered with
    • This should be enough:

      • It is unreasonable to expect everyone - especially inexperienced and occasional users - to even know about the 'Follow' feature.
      • More importantly, having to opt-in to something that should and does normally occur by default should not be necessary.
      • Even opting in may be undesirable, given the potential for a flood of unwanted notifications - such as due to incidental edits.
  • To spell out my workflow in more detail:

    • A follow-up question / request for clarification is posted in a comment, typically, but not necessarily, by the asker.

    • IF AND ONLY IF addressing the comment warrants improving the answer generally, I do so, and leave a @-targeted "Please see my updated" comment.

    • Unless interfered with due to premature deletion, this more often than not works out to everyone's satisfaction:

      • The asker is notified, and directly or indirectly indicates that their question has been addressed: indirectly by accepting the answer, or directly by confirming in another comment. (There may be a back-and-forth before reaching that point, but that is incidental - eventually, cleanup can and should occur.)

        • Even if there is no signal from the asker, I often revisit answers and if I see that the asker can be assumed to have seen my comment, I proceed to cleanup as described next.
      • At that point comments can be cleaned up, and it is certainly what I do personally: I remove mine, and I flag the asker's as "no longer needed".

    • If interfered with, as stated in the original post, the asker may never learn that their question has been answered, and a confusing comment is left behind - the net effect is more noise.

      • Also, given that an answer then won't be accepted, an important signal to future readers is lost. And acceptance is an important signal, especially initially and even longer-term in question with few views.
    • If the interference extends to also removing the asker's original comment, there won't be noise - but the asker still won't learn of the potential resolution, and there will still be no accepted-answer signal.

The above workflow is not for everyone, as it is time-consuming, so I suggest a technological solution:

  • Provide a new flag - available to the post owner only - that combines the "no longer needed" functionality with a behind-the scenes notification of the commenter that the post has been updated.

  • See this feature request for details.


To address your answer, Karl (this won't be warm and fuzzy either, but let me stress again that I appreciated your answer and the effort you put into it):

To me, it exhibits the following fallacies:

  • False dichotomy:

    • Pitting the individual against the community: In response to my saying that it is vital that the asker be notified of a response:

      • No, it really isn't. It's not even the slightest bit important here.

    • This is not an either-or situation, and, perhaps needless to say, the individual matters; as argued above, everyone has a reasonable expectation of being notified by default when responded to in a comment, especially when they're directly addressed.

  • Straw man arguments:

    • Arguing that SO isn't a discussion forum, despite the fact that my workflow is the very opposite of treating it as such and is serving to not make it devolve into that, by reducing comment noise long-term - except if the workflow is inappropriately interfered with, which is the issue at hand.

    • Needlessly arguing for the following, given that it was explicitly stated (albeit differently worded) as a premise of my issue ([if the comment "warrants a response of general interest (as opposed to an incidental, ephemeral response)").

    • Answer content should only be customized insofar as the asker's phrasing represents a typical misconception [...]

    • To spell it out unequivocally: the updates to my answers in question are designed to be of general interest and thereby also of interest to the specific asker (which is a given), so they would want to know.

  • (Inverse) Reductio ad absurdum:

    • When your arguments about comments ("there is no reasonable expectation that ordinary users see any kind of user-targeted, meta-level message, ever") are brought to their logical conclusion, there shouldn't even be a commenting feature.
  • Argument from authority:

    • With phrases such as the ones quoted below, you're portraying yourself as an authority qualified to adjudicate such matters.

    • I'm a little surprised to find myself explaining most of the following to someone with a 6-digit reputation score

    • doesn't necessarily result in understanding what we want the site to be.

    • I don't want to give the impression of berating you, as I sometimes do with other experienced users on Meta.

2
  • I am not "straw manning" you simply because I emphasize a point that you happen to agree with. Commented May 7, 2023 at 22:39
  • @KarlKnechtel, it's not a point "I happen to agree with", it is part of the premise of my post. If you had recognized that, there would have been no reason to bring up this point at all, especially in a manner suggesting that you're disagreeing with the initial post, and elaborating on it, for which there was no need.
    – mklement0
    Commented May 7, 2023 at 22:43

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