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We're all familiar with the numerous complaints, from both new and longtime members of the Stack Overflow community, describing this place as unfriendly, even hostile.

It's a serious enough problem that Stack Overflow started an initiative to encourage community members to "be nice."

Today, I would like to address a feature on this platform that I believe works against these efforts: downvoting.

I know; the most-beloved feature on the site. But, if you'll hear me out, I believe I can make the argument that it is, in fact, harmful, and to such a degree that it should be removed entirely.

I hold that downvoting offers no value to the participants, the community, or content quality. That at best it is meaningless, and at worst it promotes the very toxic culture Stack Overflow seeks to reform!

Arguments against downvoting:

  • If the goal of downvoting is to collectively object to an inappropriate question, there are already several and better ways to achieve the same end, such as flagging and moderator intervention.

  • If the goal of downvoting is to collectively appraise the merit or quality of a question, it fails viciously at it. It provides no explanation and the reason can be completely subjective. There are already far better alternatives such as favoriting, badges, etc.

  • Downvoting makes no distinction between a troll ruffling feathers and a new user, for instance, having difficulty articulating their question. Both are treated the same, sending an unwelcoming message. Are we surprised new users feel unwelcomed?

  • Asking, editing, moderating, answering, or commenting on a question all require effort, whereas downvoting doesn't. It's just a lazy alternative to substantive engagement, leaving no beneficial artifacts for the poster nor the community.

  • Downvoting is often used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon in a cowardly drive-by micro-aggression without having to own up to it. It's often more damaging than a negative comment since it is perceived as collective action by the community.

After working through these, I find myself more confident than ever - but such is the nature of thinking by one's self. So, I invite your rebuttals if you would be so kind: where do the arguments that I've laid out above fail? And if they do not, what would you have us do if not refrain from downvoting entirely?

Aside:

Please watch this short interview with Jaron Lanier describing the perils of the hive mind and the automation of online communities; it is not essential to understanding this post, but it had a great influence on me and I believe it is relevant:

Jaron Lanier on Web 2.0

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    "Downvoting offers no value to the participants, the community, or content quality." -Citation Needed
    – Warcupine
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 20:50
  • 50
    I'd sooner abolish upvoting, I'd rather know the difference between a bad post and not bad post than a good post and not good post. And yet I wouldn't abolish that either, both have their place. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 20:51
  • 65
    A exceptional claim requires exceptional evidence. You state that downvoting has no value, but you can't/won't back up those claims. If you want your argument to succeed at convincing anyone, you must present evidence that will give validity to your argument.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 20:53
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    Presenting your opinions as facts is already problematic, since you have not given reasons for a lot of the opinions. The primary issue I have with this post is that there is no indication that you are willing to get any feedback from the community, much less that you're willing to admit there may be valid uses of downvoting that you're unaware of. This post feels more like a rant than a question, and I'm voting to close as "not seeking community input".
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:07
  • 27
    That's just the point. I have read it, and digested it, and rejected it, in total. The purpose of voting is made explicit and clear in both the Help Center and the tooltips. If the "meaning" of a downvote is not understood by a user, the user has failed to understand the basics of the site's mechanics.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 1:44
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    With sufficient "answers" to your non feature-request discussion to expose the flaws in your thinking, as requested in the question, to expose the many places your "arguments" have failed, I'd have expected that the "issue" was resolved against the idea presented. All evidence has failed to be accepted by you. Nothing I can add will correct your cognitive distortions. I'm disengaging.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 2:14
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    I'm glad I can downvote this idea.
    – J...
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 9:27
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    @adabsurdum: "the community really jumped on this question from the start" Maybe the OP could avoid saying things like "abolish downvoting", "downvoting offers no value to the participants, the community, or content quality", and the like, which doesn't leave any room for productive discussion. At no point does the OP recognize the utility of downvoting, claiming to be only negative. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 21:39
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    @ATL_DEV You might be an experienced long-term user of Stack Overflow, but you seem to have little experience in moderating the site. In over 11 years, you did not flag a single post, edited 4 posts, and voted on about 150 posts. That's almost nothing. I'm not saying that participating in moderating is required at all, but doing so could alter your perspective and give you more experience with what it means to keep up quality on Stack Overflow. Voting and voting to close are the most important tools we have. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 22:24
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    @ATL_DEV So you're saying you moderated a lot on the old account and almost never on the new one, which existed for 11 years? Thats... pretty unusual and hard to believe. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 22:48
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    @ATL_DEV: "Do a basic Google search and see just how many negative impressions people have of StackOverflow. It's eye opening!" It's been discussed before. And I don't believe that downvoting is the primary cause of it; it's more commenting and closure. Furthermore, a lot of that criticism comes from users who don't want to follow our rules; they want to treat SO like a help desk, where they get to ask whatever, and we politely regurgitate code at them. Just because there is criticism doesn't make that criticism valid. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 16:58
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    @ATL_DEV: "SO, while still best, now has some serious competition like Discord and Reddit" Reddit predates SO, and Discord is a chat system that is basically un-web-indexable. So the latter is never going to be able to replace SO. And if Reddit were going to replace SO, it would have done so already. Also, Reddit has downvoting. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 16:59
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    "Does it really matter that they're unindexable?" for making a repository of Q&As - yes, it matters. If you think Discord is directly the same as SO, then it seems you don't even understand the basic concept of SO. This isn't a 101 help desk. This isn't a discussion room. This is a place to ask concrete questions and get concrete answers. But it's a lot more than that - it's the place to look for these questions and answers. We expect a lot of the traffic for posts to be people landing from search engines on already solved queries. That's not what Discord is about.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 17:43
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    @ATL_DEV: "An indexable site doesn't matter to the user asking a question." Know what does help such a user? Searching and finding the answer without asking someone. The purpose of Stack Overflow is to build that database and serve users who are willing to look for information on their own. If a user wants to burn out experienced users by repeatedly asking the same questions over and over, we don't really need them here. We want to create a useful database of answers indexed by questions. We aren't here to help the asker; we're here to help the next asker by serving them an answer. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 18:05
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    @ATL_DEV: "if new users feel not welcomed, you're alienating potential rockstars who drive the majority participation, Already, there are veteran users who have decided to no longer participate due to the toxicity of the platform." And downvotes are not the reason for any of that. Your argument doesn't fit the solution you propose. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 18:11

11 Answers 11

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Eliminating downvoting would pretty much kill the site. There would be no way to vet content otherwise. Vetting content for quality is the whole reason the site was founded; it's the antidote to Internet forums, which are a vast wasteland of suck.

If the goal of downvoting is to collectively object to an inappropriate question, there are already several and better ways to achieve the same end, such as flagging and moderator intervention.

Why would you involve moderators? Aren't they already overworked as it is? The first principle of the site is that it is run by the community, not by elected overlords.

If the goal of downvoting is to collectively appraise the merit or quality of a question, it fails viciously at it. It provides no explanation and the reason can be completely subjective. There are already far better alternatives such as favoriting, badges, etc.

The explanation for a downvote is in the tooltip for the downvote button: "This question doesn't show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful." Favoriting and badges are positive signals, not negative ones, and therefore do nothing about bad content.

Downvoting makes no distinction between a troll ruffling feathers and a new user, for instance, having difficultly articulating their question. Both are treated the same, sending an unwelcoming message. Are we surprised new users feel unwelcomed?

No, we're not surprised. The problem is not downvotes; it is the manner in which new users engage the site.

Asking, editing, moderating, answering, or commenting on a question all require effort, whereas downvoting doesn't. It's just a lazy alternative to substantive engagement, leaving no beneficial artifacts for the poster nor the community.

Downvotes are a poll. Like any other poll, it has limitations. That's why we poll everyone looking at the question, and not just a single person.

Substantive engagement is not a site requirement. If we required this, the overhead of dealing with clueless new users would quickly become overwhelming. There simply is not the available time and resources to hand-hold every new user.

Downvoting is often used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon in a cowardly drive-by micro-aggression without having to own up to it. It's often more damaging than a negative comment since it is perceived as collective action by the community.

The term "Micro-Aggression" is a non-sequitur. You're either a good citizen or a pain in the ass, and that goes equally for new users who can't be arsed to figure out the first thing about how the site works, as it does for rude veteran users who really should know better.

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    There's nothing objective about downvoting that determines the quality of a question.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:02
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    I'm not sure why you think that matters. Quality itself is subjective. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:03
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    @ATL_DEV show me an objectively bad and an objectively good question and explain objectively why they are bad or good. I expect you to not include any personal opinion nor experience in the evaluation.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:04
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    You're the one who used the term vet. I didn't.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:21
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    while i mostly agree with this answer, the site is already destroyed. The content that should be deleted via downvoting isn't getting deleted anywhere near the rate at which new such questions are asked. the site actively discourages people from downvoting both with consequences and messaging.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:38
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    But a lot of (immediate) downvoting (and thus chock of unsuspecting new users) is completely unnecessary. If a post ends up being deleted anyway, closed anyway before any answers, or never answered anyway, the early downvoting didn't need to happen. For instance, there could be several phases (evaluation for closing and quality) a question passes through (can include several back and forth) before it is subjected to voting. There must be better ways than the simplistic Q&A model after nearly 13 years. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 3:32
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    @PeterMortensen Unfortunately, new poor content is coming in faster and faster. I am afraid that closing and deleting alone does not sent proper message back to the OP that something is wrong. People that do want to be constructive members will take that hint more seriously and look into how to improve and others that don't will be prevented to do more harm here more promptly. Until we get to the point that we can successfully deal with poor content coming in on daily basis, we cannot me more lenient with downvoting. Having said that, I am against pilling up downvotes. Even one can suffice.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 9:28
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    @DalijaPrasnikar Don't get me wrong. If downvoting was used primarily for questions where it regurgitates a homework or job interview question from a newbie or veteran, I wouldn't mind. A better alternative would be to place a badge on the question with the number of objecting SO users (n SO users don't understand your question, please revise, see xxx for help), or (n SO users suspect this question is already answered elsewhere link). How can this not help?
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 16:50
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    @ATL_DEV “a badge with the number of objecting SO users” seems to be exactly what downvotes are. How would your badge be different? How would it not suffer from what you think are the disadvantages of downvotes? Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 9:10
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    @KevinB: And yet, it's still better than all the alternatives out there (looking at you, Microsoft forums). Much better. Your argument that this "site is already destroyed" reminds me of the tag line of the Mutt e-mail client: "All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less."
    – Heinzi
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 8:33
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    @KevinB why does it need deleting? Low quality content is organically buried by downvotes. Only things that are actually harmful need to be deleted (spam, abuse, infringement), and they are deleted very quickly.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 10:25
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    @peilonrayz every downvote (even each one on the same question) results in a pop up stating: “Please consider adding a comment if you think this post can be improved”. Once you reach 2000 rep, this dialog goes away. That is horrible advice as it more often than not results in negative responses, and frankly I find it as a deterrent to downvoting. It’s designed to make you second guess using the moderation tools.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 22:53
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As you stated, "the goal of downvoting is to collectively appraise the merit or quality of a question". I believe it does in fact accomplish this goal. I see no reason why this has anything to do with explanation, favoriting or badges.

Case in point, I have downvoted this question because I disagree with its premise. And, looking at the total, it seems like others agree. The system is working.

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    Wait? I thought downvoting was based on quality of the question. You contradict yourself.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:43
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    @ATL_DEV Voting on meta is different: "On posts tagged feature-request, voting indicates agreement or disagreement with the proposed change rather than just the quality or usefulness of the post itself."
    – BSMP
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 21:59
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    @BSMP And doubly so on meta [feature-requests]
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 23:33
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    Wait! The reasons change from site to site? Yikes!
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 0:40
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    @ATL_DEV Yes, the behavior within a SE site corresponds with the premise of that site. In SO Meta's case, feature requests need to have some kind of agree/disagree ability, which is where voting comes in. Offering a downvoted feature request means the userbase believes the request isn't great, but it isn't necessarily reflective of a badly made question (although badly made questions will also be subject to downvoting).
    – bbnumber2
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 7:45
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    @ATL_DEV note that because voting on meta is not intended to reflect on the quality of content, that it has no effect on the account's reputation. There may be other reasons as well, but that one makes the most sense to me. Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 19:50
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    @ATL_DEV The fact you don't understand the culture of our site and the purposes and uses of its features suggests you're not qualified to evaluate those features. Please spend some time learning about the site's history, culture, and values before judging it. This is demanded by the values you claim to be pursuing. You, like the radical SO staff that has gained so much influence over the past couple years, have prejudged our system and us instead.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 12:49
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    @jpmc26. I have been using stackoverflow far longer than you have. Joel told me about the site at a trade show and I signed up as an early beta tester around 2008.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 3:05
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    @ATL_DEV Telling you that you lack information is not an attack, ad hominem or otherwise. Whatever your usage history, it is nonetheless obvious that you lack crucial context needed for discussing your proposed changes to be productive. One solid piece of evidence of this is your unawareness that voting on Meta typically expresses disagreement. Being a beta tester does not change that; it is not a logically valid argument against your lack of knowledge.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 7:05
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    Since downvoting on MSO works differently, this answer is a complete non sequitur and constitutes a bad argument. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 10:46
  • I've found that nearly everyone has a different idea of what a good vs bad question is. The same Q or A will garner both "too much" and "too little" info/research/whatever and will garner DVs for opposite reasons. I've also seen Qs get DVs from people who can't answer it or don't understand it because they refused to fully read it. This is why I don't generally ask Qs, because I've had these problems along with people complaining I don't have info in the Q that I actually do, but they didn't read it so it's somehow my fault. Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 17:01
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    Due to this remark: "And, looking at the total, it seems like others agree. The system is working.", I really recommend that you watch the video @ATL_DEV linked in the post. One hint: that many people agree with you may be because many who do not are not here anymore.
    – nielsen
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 18:10
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    @nielsen - please don't take quotes out of context - it was an illustration of the point that voting serves its purpose as a means to evaluate the merits of a post (in this case - merits of the proposal), not a statement that the score represents any opinion out there. Off-note: it may be, and it may just as well be not. Can we stop treating SO like we are a village of 10 people? There are those who left due to feeling unwelcomed, due to SE actions, due to SE inactions, due to tiring, burning out, etc. We can't rework everything just because some complain - the arguments should be tangible.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 18:33
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    @OlegValter "the arguments should be tangible". My point exactly. I do not agree with the conclusion of the OP, but that does not imply that all arguments against it are good. The one I pointed out is not a good argument and its ironic that the explanation why is in the post it is supposed to argue against. Failure to listen to the opponent makes all discussion a waste of time.
    – nielsen
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 19:41
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    @nielsen - while of course arguments on both sides are of varying degrees of validity, I must point out again that the reply simply provides a counter-example to the blanket statement of "fails viciously at it". I fail to see what reasons are there in the original post that make this not a good argument (merits of the post aside). P.s. Watching an external video should not be a requirement for the same reasons we do not allow link-only questions. All relevant info unless absolutely necessary should be in the post itself.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Mar 9, 2021 at 20:12
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It really hurts me that you would even think of such a proposal. Removing downvoting would destroy Stack Overflow. Accusing us of using downvotes in an evil way is really upsetting. Voting is not toxic behaviour. It is the necessary means to moderate the content and keep useful content relevant.

There are no better ways of saying "this post is unhelpful to me and others" than a downvote button. Moderators deal primarily with users, they don't judge all of the content. Comments tend to be noisy and impolite and are definitely not a good way to rate information. Just think which is better: 20 comments saying "I don't find your question useful at all" or some arbitrary score on the side of your post?

Don't say that we do not put effort into downvoting. Every action that we take to curate the content requires a certain amount of effort. It is this effort that helps you find correct answers quickly. Reading a question and making a decision on whether to vote up or down is not an easy thing to do. The more experience you have the faster you are able to come to a decision, but it is still a lot of work that should not go unappreciated.

Please, do not call us trolls, lazy or cowards when we only want to help maintain a repository of useful information.

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    @ATL_DEV How could I see the person's skin color? Why would I even care about that? I do not vote on people, I vote on content. The user who posted it is irrelevant. Don't take the downvotes personally.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 0:51
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    You don't get my point. I'm merely stating that while your downvote may be well intention, someone else's may not. It is possible to tell a or assume person's skin color from their profile photo or deduced from other information in their profile.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 0:59
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    @atl If anyone votes based on user's avatar they don't deserve this privilege. It wouldn't be fair to take it away from everyone if one person abuses it. Better let's teach people how to rate content properly. Even then eradicating racism is not a problem of Stack Overflow. It's a more deeper rooted issue.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 1:14
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    If Stack Overflow claims it wants to be more inclusive of under representation groups, then they've professed it is their problem. That's a cop out. You also assume that everyone has good intentions and claim bigotry is a deeply rooted issue, yet you believe telling people not to do it is sufficient. You're argument for downvoting is is equivalent to "just because a few people kill with guns, doesn't mean we should take away guns from everyone." Downvoting is a non-essential function just as owning a gun is. Given gun has more potential for harm than good, banning them is reasonable.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 1:37
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    @atl I am not going to discuss US politics. Stack Overflow is not the place for that. If you want to improve the situation then suggest something along the lines of removing user profiles from the site. You are attacking the wrong thing right now.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 1:44
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    @ATL_DEV I can make the same argument for upvotes. How about we remove them, too?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 1:52
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    @ATL_DEV upvoting a poor answer can push the poor practices into other code bases. This can have real life implications if a compromised code is taken from SO because it's upvoted despite actually having issues. I'd even give you a real example - I've had my email fail validation multiple times because it turns out the regex used was from SO. That's real world real harm coming from upvotes. They are also non-essential. Or at least as essential as downvotes, which you claim are non-essential. Any reasoning you can give for removing downvotes should be mirrored for upvotes.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 2:04
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    @adabsurdum the answer is no. However the entire point was that downvotes and upvotes are symmetric in function and capability. If one should be removed, I don't see why the other should remain. Any premise that one of these voting mechanisms is flawed should be levelled at the entire voting system. If it's not, then the argument is flawed or incomplete. I've not seen any reason to believe that the two should be considered separately.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 22:54
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    @ATL_DEV "how is he or she supposed to discern your downvote from a racist asshole's downvote?" By being kind to the people casting the downvote. A user can make any number of baseless derogatory assumptions about other users no matter what quality control mechanism we use, but the very values of "welcoming" you claim to be espousing insist they give people the benefit of the doubt instead. If you dispute this, then we must also be allowed to ascribe any negative qualities we want to an asker. Welcoming and kindness cannot be a one-way street.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 8:55
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    @ATL_DEV Alternatively, logic. Most users have no identifying features on their profile that would allow us to determine their race, gender, or any other physical quality.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 8:57
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    Every year, there are excessive deaths and injuries resulting from road traffic accidents with fire tenders and ambulances driven at excessive speed, their drivers demanding priority and the like - they must be banned immediately! Commented Mar 5, 2021 at 7:17
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    @MichaelHarley I do it too. If I think the available answer is bad, I just downvote it and post my own answer.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 1, 2022 at 7:47
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    @MichaelHarley That the reason was not presented to you does not mean that there wasn't an underlying reason for the vote. Better not make unfounded claims.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 4, 2022 at 7:37
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    No reason (was given to me), because no comment was added to the answer. At the end of the day, I see no reason was given. I'm not making unfounded claims, just saying and sharing my experience guys, from my own perspective. It would be better to "Add a comment if you want to down-vote" and make this a feature for the stackoverflow. Commented Oct 5, 2022 at 13:01
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    To improve my answer, and learn more? Because their answer isn't better than my answer in my eyes. Why can't I learn more if someone think my answer is lacking? Commented Oct 5, 2022 at 13:04
46

If the goal of downvoting is to collectively object to an inappropriate question, there are already several and better ways to achieve the same end, such as flagging and moderator intervention.

Flagging isn't feasible, because of the simple fact that no amount of moderators will be able to keep up with the flags.

If the goal of downvoting is to collectively appraise the merit or quality of a question, it fails viciously at it. It provides no explanation and the reason can be completely subjective. There are already far better alternatives such as favoriting, badges, etc.

Badges don't apply to questions, they apply to users. Irrelevant.
Favoriting isn't used as a measure of quality, but to keep track of specific questions. You fail to specify how "favorites" would compensate for the removal of downvotes...

Downvoting makes no distinction between a troll ruffling feathers and a new user, for instance, having difficultly articulating their question. Both are treated the same, sending an unwelcoming message. Are we surprised new users feel unwelcomed?

That's just assuming ill intent. Sure, there are trolls, there are users with bad intentions, but they're generally dealt with by the automated vote fraud systems if they're acting on any significant scale.

The "new users feel unwelcome" point doesn't help here. New users will feel just as unwelcome, or even more so, if they can't get an answer to their question because of the sheer amount of garbage questions drowning out their own.

Asking, editing, moderating, answering, or commenting on a question all require effort, whereas downvoting doesn't. It's just a lazy alternative to substantive engagement, leaving no beneficial artifacts for the poster nor the community.

You're missing the whole point of downvotes. It's a core component of SO's curation system. It results in automated cleanups, there's visibility and deletion criteria tied to question scores, and probably more I can't immediately think of. Downvotes are integral to SO's quality control cycle.

Downvoting is often used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon in a cowardly drive-by micro-aggression without having to own up to it. It's often more damaging than a negative comment since it is perceived as collective action by the community.

Now you're just ranting. Baseless accusations and hyperbole...


None of these arguments are new, or provide a compelling reason to do something drastic as completely change how SE functions.

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    Re: "New users will feel just as unwelcome, or even more so, if they can't get an answer to their question because of the sheer amount of garbage questions drowning out their own." That's an excellent and well-phrased point. If downvotes didn't exist to help curate content, even if users felt "more welcome," however we quantify that, new users would objectively be worse off since less of their questions would be addressed, answered, or even seen.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 0:02
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    I think the OP is using "badge" to mean something totally different from SO's badge system. Like some kind of text box that shows up with a question, maybe similar to what we currently see on closed questions. That's based on a comment the OP later made on another answer. (I still disagree with OP's suggestion, but at least it's not as nonsensical as it first appeared. And it certainly wasn't explained clearly, given that "badge" means something else on SO / SE.) Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 5:43
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    @PeterCordes and that badge, if implemented, will be very similar to downvote count, I suppose.
    – justhalf
    Commented Mar 1, 2021 at 9:32
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Others have left more substantive feedback on this post, but I wanted to call out two specific things here.

Asking, editing, moderating, answering, or commenting on a question all require effort, whereas downvoting doesn't. It's just a lazy alternative to substantive engagement, leaving no beneficial artifacts for the poster nor the community.

I will agree with you - this is lazy. But it's the kind of lazy that software developers actually like - it's the kind of lazy that means that a whole lot of time or energy isn't required to address or deal with this problem.

I've made many comments and posts in the past talking about how the message of what purpose a downvote serves is often never spoken about from the level of Stack Exchange, Inc. That is to say, quite clearly: Stack Exchange doesn't arm you with any foreknowledge into what a downvote is or why you're getting it, or why others don't have to comment on it. (To be fair, we've had a sidebar about why we would reject such a feature; you can peruse that if you're curious.)

Fundamentally speaking though...downvoting is far more scalable than substantive engagement with every person seeking to downvote a question. There's no guarantee that they'll just roll their head on the keyboard to satisfy the simple input form and one would be no better off if they had heard radio silence.

This is why it's better to discuss these things here on Meta. There are specific tags about it too: and . Here on Meta, we can give you some of that qualitative, non-lazy feedback that you'd be looking for in a situation like this - to help you understand what's going on, and to give you a chance to approach this from a neutral perspective.

Even still know that we're volunteers and we have other priorities going on. I wish that the company could help us out here and make this papercut a bit less cut-like, since it's rubbed many legion of users like yourself the wrong way.

Downvoting is often used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon in a cowardly drive-by micro-aggression without having to own up to it. It's often more damaging than a negative comment since it is perceived as collective action by the community.

So the reason that it's untraceable is ironically spelled out in your remark. By assuming that we intend to attack you as an individual or as a person for our downvote, any votes that come up on a question that are traceable back to the person instantly get that person turned into a personal pin cushion. We're not looking to antagonize anyone, nor are we looking to make any comments about an individual here. We just want to evaluate questions.

I understand that you think it's cowardly but the point of all of this is to ensure that good, answerable, readable, and reasonably scoped questions make its way to the top, and garner the attention of subject matter experts more readily.

If you're frustrated with how your questions have been received, ask a question here on Meta about your question (tagged with ) and let's have an actual discussion about it. We're willing to help if you're willing to come here and listen with an open mind and are eager to improve.

0
28

Negative feedback is crucially important for maintaining a site where the stated purpose is "working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming."

In our current system, downvotes are (designed to be) used to indicate that something is wrong with some content. It could be that it's poor quality, or hard to understand, or based on a false premise, or any of a countless number of other reasons... but the point is that it indicates something. In removing downvoting as a tool, you leave nothing in its place to indicate any sort of negative feedback, short of a post being removed (be it through closure or deletion), which removes it from discourse and greatly hinders its chances for improvement.

If question askers, people who truly and earnestly care about getting their questions answered, have no immediate means of receiving feedback that their question is unclear, how can they improve their post in order to receive good answers?

Or if question answerers, who greatly care about whether the answer they provide is actually proving useful to OP and others, have no means of being given feedback indicating that there's something wrong with what they've posted, then have you not immensely hindered their ability to provide and improve their content on the site?

Would removing downvotes truly improve our discourse and ability to provide useful, quality content to the development community?

Even as frustrating as downvotes can be to receive, even as much as they can be weaponized or misused in edge cases, and even as subjective and effortless as they may be to give... I truly believe that removing them would hinder our community and its ability to curate content, not help it.

2
  • Have you ever considered a downvote may have nothing to do with the quality of your question? Perhaps, I downvoted your post because you're from Texas.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 0:27
  • 17
    @ATL_DEV: I think there's strong evidence that the majority of votes are based on answer quality (times visibility: some great obscure answers don't have nearly enough upvotes, and some obscure bad or low-quality ones aren't downvoted much). A few bad actors who vote for wrong reasons (like revenge on another user whose comment they didn't like) don't ruin the system. In another thread you made an analogy to gun control. But the reasons votes are different is that a few good actors can fix / balance out problems created by one bad actor for votes, but death and injury are permanent. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 5:52
20

Your main argument in comments under other answers seems to be that the possibility of a few people voting for the wrong reasons (e.g. personal reasons or biases about the user, not the content) cause such a big problem that nobody should be allowed to vote. (You even made an analogy to gun control in a comment.)

This argument is flawed because voting and shooting are fundamentally different. One bad shooter can permanently kill people, and no amount of good gun-owners can bring them back to life, or (safely+reliably) prevent it in the first place. So there's a valid argument for gun control.

But voting is 1. not permanent (can be reversed after an edit fixes problems), and 2. only really matters as far as the total. One malicious downvote can be drowned out by a few upvotes, leaving the post with an overall positive score. A random undeserved downvote might make someone unhappy for a few minutes, and maybe spend time re-checking their post for something to improve, but doesn't have any serious permanent effect.

So what matters is that most (not necessarily all) votes are based on the quality of a post, not revenge on a user that you think downvoted you, or other personal reasons you hypothesize.

Also 3. voting on one question doesn't have a serious permanent effect on anyone's whole life. Even just talking about SO, it takes multiple downvoted questions to get question-banned.

I think there's strong evidence that the majority of votes are based on quality, especially for answers (times visibility: some great obscure answers don't have nearly enough upvotes especially late answers on popular questions, and some obscure bad or low-quality ones aren't downvoted much). Look at lots of popular questions, and you'll usually find well-written text that explains something clearly and correctly.

A few bad actors who vote for wrong reasons (like revenge on another user whose comment they didn't like) don't ruin the system.

Definitely a lot of questions get downvoted, but interesting, well-formatted and well-explained new questions do still get upvotes, regardless of who asks them. Experienced SO users are much more likely to put in the effort to make their questions "nice" in terms of formatting and presenting what they do know and what they're looking for, but new users that try certainly do manage it, sometimes with help from someone editing their question when there's an interesting question that just needs some better formatting.

Most users have pretty high standards these days for new questions that are worth answering, and for "research effort" for basic questions. (I think that's a good thing. Stack Overflow shouldn't try to be everyone's helpdesk where you can dash off a low-effort question.) I understand that it's not ideal to have so many new users with misconceptions about our quality standards that get their questions downvoted, but removing downvotes altogether is not a viable solution.

The real issue may be that you disagree with, or don't understand or like, the quality standards that most SO users have for questions. We're trying to filter a firehose of questions to weed out ones that aren't worth being part of the site's permanent collection for whatever reason.

Stack Overflow management is part of the problem for new users: they encourage / design the site to make it easy to post questions without having learned about the community's expectations for quality, favouring question volume / traffic instead of the site's original purpose (a repo of good Q&As) which is still the reason most long-term users joined and stay active.

10
  • 4
    Worth noting: In my experience, malicious downvotes often result in counter-upvotes. The net result is at worst a neutral score and a reputation benefit. Content with a net score below -1 is practically always rated by content. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 9:19
  • 4
    Also worth noting - which is strangely amiss in the arguments concerning bad actors - we have both manual and automatic moderation for such cases, don't we? A huge chunk of malicious votes are reversed without even involving anyone, and there is always an option to report suspicious activity. P.S. A quick note about gun control analogy in line with Peter's reasoning - there is a good amount of hard data we can work on when debating gun ownership, but none is presented regarding the scope of harm DV causes ("numerous complaints" does not count as hard data).
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 12:44
  • 2
    @OlegValter: The kind of "bad" voting the OP is worried about is one-of on a per-post basis, not systematic going through one user's posts and downvoting multiple of them. Only the latter gets picked up automatically. I don't think any humans would notice anything in the OP's hypothetical case of a racist voter either (unless they said something about it in a comment), so no, I don't think the existence of moderators actually would rule out that concern. Instead, such bad voting isn't a concern because we're pretty sure it's very rare in the current community. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 12:53
  • @PeterCordes - I thought they were referring to any kind of malicious downvoting? My bad then - if that is all it is, I do wholeheartedly agree this is hardly a concern - given the purely theoretical nature of the argument without any substantive data to support the claim.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:02
  • 2
    @OlegValter: If you read their comments on other answers, that's the kind of thing they're bringing up. Also in their deleted meta question from 6 months ago (meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/400312/…) mentioned in comments on Can we slow down on the deletes, folks?. As someone lucky enough not to have been on the receiving end of discrimination in real life, I don't want to dismiss it out of hand, but it seems like a very strong claim that needs more evidence. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:11
  • 2
    If there is a bias towards downvotes on questions from non-white people, I'd personally guess that the ultimate cause is societal inequality in access to education (including writing skills) and computers, leading to more such folks struggling in programming classes and begging for help when they're lost. (People who are totally lost are rarely able to ask a specific coherent programming question, regardless of who they are). Also, on an English language site, a large fraction of questions that are low quality because the asker can't explain clearly in English come from non-whites. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:20
  • 5
    Just to be clear, those kinds of problems are not at all unique to any group: we get low quality questions from every kind of person that includes a photo of themselves as an avatar. I try to be generous and find a useful question buried under misunderstandings when I can, or at least I think I do, sometimes. But there's a limit, and Stack Overflow isn't the place for a 1 on 1 tutoring session. And I have near zero interest in just debugging someone's code for them, especially when they haven't even used a debugger. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:29
  • Re: downvotes - yeah, you are right, I see they are concerned with the one-off votes that are hardly traceable (which, ironically, makes the presumably "harmful" impact also untraceable and hypothetical). Re: language - you mean users from primarily non-English speaking countries asking poorly worded/expressed questions contributes to voting being perceived as biased against minority groups?
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:37
  • 1
    @OlegValter: Yes, exactly. It wouldn't be bias against non-whites, it would just be a correlation with downvotes on posts that ran into a language barrier. It's very plausible that an already-marginal question is pushed over the edge into downvote territory for some readers if it's also less clear because of a language barrier. Or even if it's still clear (but not useful) but poorly written. I don't personally downvote for mere bad grammar (I edit), but some people might take that into account as part of an overall evaluation of whether a question is good. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 13:49
  • @PeterCordes - agreed, pretty sure the language barrier contributes to posts being hard to understand and probably downvoted (not dismissing the possibility of real discrimination, of course). This also could be mitigated by means other than rethinking the whole voting system (maybe integrating the editor with a spell-checker solution).
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 16:44
14

I suspect that one of the things worth thinking about, as much as the horror of obvious disapproval, is the goals of downvoting.

Quite a few site mechanics (reputation is the obvious one, but consider deletion) kind of rely on the downvote as a precursor and these are fairly integral to the quality control processes of the network. As much as we don't want bad questions, we don't want users to chase their tails with bad answers.

As much as one might want to talk about changing "toxic cultures" (and one can wound far worse with comments, and cause much more bad blood).

Any rethink of downvotes needs to consider the whole system, not just a single aspect.

One approach that was suggested was hiding downvotes beyond a point. I guess this limits the 'shock' value to a new user - but doesn't really help them with what's wrong

It also removes one way we deal with quality issues - there's some sorts of post that ought to be discouraged, and might potentially be a turn off for folks who actually answer questions, and make it harder to find what you need. I mean, sure you could comment, but what then?

And we're not even considering scalable ways of what to do with a bad answer yet.

While its cheap fast and nasty - that's sometimes what you need.

The original question talks about reasons downvotes are bad but doesn't consider its role in the ecosystem. It does punish some users but having some way to sieve out poor quality content's essential. Without it...

Wolves eat sheep. People kill wolves.

Wolves also eat deer, and weed out the weak and sickly.

DEER EVERYWHERE.

Eating your roof, trampling your fields...

Then they get sick, or eat everything and die and the whole ecosystem collapses.

Its worth considering the broader ecosystem before removing part of it, even if it seems like a predator.

I'd also suggest looking at how other platforms handle it. I don't recall any major platforms with a different model off the top of my head personally, but when in doubt, its always worth cribbing ideas from what works.

There's no point complaining about how painful or unfair downvotes are if you can't propose an alternative that serves the same roles on SE.

1
  • 1
    Re "Then they get sick, or eat everything and die and the whole ecosystem collapses.": That actually happened in real life where I lived in 2005 for Capreolus capreolus (because the local hunters only wanted to be trophy hunters. And they wanted as many as possible - the flawed logic was: the more deer, the more trophies). I witnessed it first hand; there were dead deer left and right in spring 2005. The local hunters failed to be the substitute for predators. Actual wolves immigrated about 10 years later, but that is another story. Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 23:53
13

I might agree that the way downvotes are used, especially as it fits within the rest of the site, is not always ideal and in some cases might even be deeply flawed and can make well-meaning users feel unwelcome.

But I do not think removing the ability to downvote is a good way to deal with that, because downvotes exist exactly because not everyone is well-meaning and we need different ways to deal with different types of offences. We also don't want to send the wrong signals (i.e. that some content is acceptable, when it isn't) to those who might be well-meaning.

Better ways to deal with downvotes not doing what they should would include some of the many proposal around here about:

  • Improving the new user experience in order to make them clearly understand the rules, ideally before their question is even posted.
  • Improve the after-posting experience, i.e. how the question and any interaction on it is displayed, how and what the asker is told about any problem with their question and how and which resources the asker is pointed towards to help them understand and fix those problems.
  • Improving the help center so it's more clear what sort of content we expect and that the rules are in fact rules and not just advice to make it more likely that they'd get an answer.
  • Changing the question-posting process to stop users from posting unwanted questions or to help them fix their questions before posting.
  • Changing the moderation/closure/deletion process to make it easier to deal with unwanted questions when they do get posted.
  • Possibly addressing the pile-on effect where a possibly-misguided-but-not-malicious asker may get a dozen plus downvotes (although trying to directly address that is probably fairly controversial, and likely unnecessary if all of the above is working as it should).
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  • 3
    In my experience, the only time non-malicious questions receive tonnes of downvotes is on Meta, and voting works differently on Meta. However, that isn't clear to new users and tends to be interpreted as hostility, especially if they're on Meta to complain about hostility in the first place. So as well as improving the experience on main sites, we'd need to improve the experience on Meta sites so that new users know how voting works there as well.
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 10:11
  • 1
    According to @Makoto answer, "Stack Exchange doesn't arm you with any foreknowledge into what a downvote is or why you're getting it, or why others don't have to comment on it." So, the reason for downvotes is completely arbitrary. I've asked several popular questions with a lot of upvotes that generated opinions rather than factual answers. Likewise, I've asked some solid questions that were downvoted for no apparent reason with other users demanding the question be reopened.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 17:00
  • 4
    @ATL_DEV Downvotes might be poorly explained, especially to new users, but that doesn't mean their reasons are arbitrary. Some people might downvote for bad reasons (according to the community), like something being posted by someone or in a topic they don't like, but by and large the community agrees what downvotes should be used for (and this corresponds to what the the site itself says downvotes should be used for in the help center and the downvote hovertext). This is also not to say the reasons aren't sometimes subjective, which can lead to people disagreeing about a post.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 27, 2021 at 18:21
  • 10
    @ATL_DEV Your conclusion is not based on what Makato said. New people being downvoted often do not know what a downvote means. That is something completely different from people who downvote not knowing what a downvote means. The conclusion that “the reason for downvotes is completely arbitrary” does not follow from that at all. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 9:29
  • @MisterMiyagi It is unclear and there's no real objective criteria behind it. It also doesn't say anything about the quality of the question, nor doe it help the user.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 10:54
  • 6
    @ATL_DEV I think this meta question has made it pretty clear that this is your opinion. Repeating it without sensible arguments, and often enough without any coherence (seriously, how did we come from a misquote to this assertion?), is not helpful. Perhaps you should reconsider what is the objective criteria behind your actions. Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 11:24
  • 4
    @ATL_DEV It's pretty much impossible to maintain any quality standard using only objective criteria. Even flags and close votes have some degree of subjectivity to them. The upside of subjective criteria may outweigh the downside if people agree roughly where the line is. If you want to prove that people don't agree roughly where the line is, then you're probably going to have to present a lot of data. Having people disagree about the occasional question is not ideal, but it's also not unexpected and it doesn't mean everything is broken.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 11:50
  • @NotThatGuy What happens if someone asks a question which has issues and it is downvoted, but later they or someone else improves the question? What does the downvotes mean if the votes are never cleared? Whatever benefit downvoting has is evaporated by its negative reaction from users. How can SO encourage its users to be constructive, nice and helpful when its platform prevents it? We should be using software to bring the best out of humanity, not bring out the worst of it.
    – ATL_DEV
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 16:11
  • 5
    @ATL_DEV That is a legitimate concern and I think about that too, but in my experience most of the time people don't edit their questions, especially questions that are particularly low quality and tend to draw downvotes, in response to anything really. When edits do happen they tend to be fairly minor and don't address all the issues with the post. So again it's probably a case where the upside outweighs the downside. Also, I haven't seen a proposal that solves this problem in a particularly good way (simply removing the ability to downvote is not it as I believe downvotes aren't all bad).
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 16:46
  • 4
    @ATL_DEV Also, you aren't punished too harshly for having one or two downvoted posts. If you're trying hard to follow the rules, it seems unlikely that you'd have enough downvoted posts to be hit with a question ban (which is the only real consequence to having downvoted questions). Also also, there are ways to remove it from your profile (or create a new profile) if you care about other people seeing it on there (like just deleting it, if able). Assuming other people didn't delete it already.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 28, 2021 at 16:47
12

I'm unable to speak for others, so this is only my personal opinion. With that understanding I'll attempt to address some of the points presented in the question. As my own aside: most of what's said here about downvoting also applies to upvoting.

Even before reaching the arguments I was tripped up by one bold assumption. Downvoting is not, for me, the most-beloved feature on the site. My most-beloved feature is the ability to find a useful answer to almost any development question I have, without every having to even ask the question. Even more relevant is that I don't downvote as much as I should.

Secondly, for me as a simple, low-rep user (aka participant) downvoting does, in practice and fact, offer a great amount of value. The net result of downvoting provides value to the community through its filtering and ranking effects. The content quality of the question being downvoted may, or may not, be improved by downvotes. The improvement, if any, is the result of the OP responding to the signals from the votes. The content quality of the site, as a whole, is improved by downvotes through the filtering effect it has on lists of questions from searches, and other listings.

Lastly, before looking at the listed arguments, I'm not going to address the supposed toxic culture of SO. I am not completely 'on-board' with the existence of said toxicity.

Argument against downvoting addressed:

  1. Possible goal of downvoting being a tool to collectively, or individually, object to an inappropriate question.
  • I reject that as a goal from the gate. Inappropriate questions, or other content, to me is content such as rude/abusive content, spam, off-topic, and otherwise "not for here" content. For such content there are indeed flags. Question quality being low is different than content not being appropriate. Yet, on SO more than most other sites, downvotes do help remove inappropriate content as a side-effect. This is mostly due to the mods on SO being much lighter than there flag response workload would dictate.
  1. Possible goal of downvoting being to collectively appraise the merit or quality of a question.
  • I understand this to be the primary goal of the voting mechanism. It is a tool made available to "regular" users to assist in the curation of the main site's content.
  • It does not, as claimed in the question, fail. Simple fact, not opinion.
  • Downvoting is not vicious (dangerously aggressive, malicious, spiteful, or depraved) as a tool, or in aggregate. It is possible for any user to use the tools, including downvoting, in a vicious manner. SO has tooling available to the mods which helps mitigate such activity when it happens.
  • As mentioned in other answer(s), favoriting and badges have nothing to do with question quality, or any other aspect of curation.
  1. Lack of distinction between questions of a troll and new users.
  • Good catch. There is not supposed to be any distinction. A downvote on a question, indicating that the question is lacking in some fashion, should be applied the same to trolls, new users, and old users.
  • The tooltip prompt for the downvote button states, "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful." If the question qualifies under that description, who asked the question does not matter.
  • If a downvote is perceived as an unwelcoming message by the querant, then the querant has not read, and understood, the appropriate sections of the Tour and/or the Help Center. > Voting up a question or answer signals to the rest of the community that a post is interesting, well-researched, and useful, while voting down a post signals the opposite: that the post contains wrong information, is poorly researched, or fails to communicate information. The more that people vote on a post, the more certain future visitors can be of the quality of information contained within that post – not to mention that upvotes are a great way to thank the author of a good post for the time and effort put into writing it!
  1. Downvoting is laxy and leaves no beneficial artifacts to the poster nor the community.

    • The vote tally is a very obvious artifact. The vote tally is very beneficial to the community (see #2 above).
    • The vote tally is supposed to be a signal to the user writing the question about its quality and usefulness. When it's not understood as such see the last bullet of #3 above.
    • It is a lazy. So is going to SO to find an answer to development questions.
    • Lazy can be good. Imagine a question with no downvotes and nearly 100 comments, mixed into the comments are 5 which suggest ways the question can be improved. How is the user every going to know that the question needs improving? The votes allow the asker to be lazy and know to fix the question without having to read 100, or more, comments.
  2. Downvoting has been weaponized.

    • Any system can be weaponized. That is not a reflection on the system. Rather it reflects upon those who do so.
    • Comments with a short phrase can be much harsher than any number of downvotes.
    • Answers can be weaponized, providing a very large canvas to victimize the OP.
    • Meta posts themselves can be used as a weapon. Both against other users, and against the system itself.

Direct response to the closing question:

The presented arguments fail; individually, and collectively.

4

I know; the most-beloved feature on the site

Nope, the up arrow and the "Post Your Answer" buttons are my favorite features. I've upvoted 2,948 times and downvoted 236 times. (Maybe because I got the downvote privilege waaaay after the upvote privilege.)

If the goal of downvoting is to collectively object to an inappropriate question, there are already several and better ways to achieve the same end, such as flagging and moderator intervention.

Declined - flags should not be used to point out technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong answer

And if there's no downvote button, what should the moderators do when they review the flag!?

If the goal of downvoting is to collectively appraise the merit or quality of a question, it fails viciously at it. It provides no explanation and the reason can be completely subjective. There are already far better alternatives such as favoriting, badges, etc.

Yes, what if we forced explanations on downvotes?

-1 still no answer
-1 asfsdfsadfasdfasdfd
-1 same reason as @username here

Downvoting makes no distinction between a troll ruffling feathers and a new user, for instance, having difficulty articulating their question. Both are treated the same, sending an unwelcoming message. Are we surprised new users feel unwelcomed?

Not really. If they're coming from a discussion forum, they may be surprised when

I Think You Should Take The Tutorial HERE!

It will help you a lot

or

Same problem, did you figure it out?

get deleted. But soon enough, someone comments. At the time of writing there are 929895 users that can downvote. Will none of them comment?

Assuming 10 people view a question, there's a 9/10 chance the user will downvote and 9/10 chance that he/she will NOT comment, the probability of no single downvoter commenting is...

(81/100)10
which is
0.12157665459. That's pretty low.

Personally, I like to comment when downvoting, and there's a banner when you hit Downvote:

Please consider adding a comment if you think this post can be improved.

Asking, editing, moderating, answering, or commenting on a question all require effort, whereas downvoting doesn't. It's just a lazy alternative to substantive engagement, leaving no beneficial artifacts for the poster nor the community.

Well, to downvote I have to:

  1. Find the Stack Overflow tab
  2. Find my mouse pointer
  3. Move it to the downvote button
  4. Click
  5. Leave constructive criticism

Downvoting is often used as a cheap, fast, and untraceable weapon in a cowardly drive-by micro-aggression without having to own up to it. It's often more damaging than a negative comment since it is perceived as collective action by the community.

Sometimes, a negative comment can be worse.

Which makes you feel worse:

  • Post score changing from 21 -> 20
  • Go away. This site isn't for script kiddies.

  • rude comment
  • even ruder comment:
    ruder comment
  • these comments

So the downvote is a useful way of separating the plzsendtehcodez from this.

I understand that sometimes receiving downvotes on all of your posts really stinks. But we have a system for reversing that.

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  • 2
    On point 4, the calculations suggested can be misleading: when posting a question or answer, it will not be viewed by all 929k users who can downvote. Assuming the same chances (which are also a bit subjective, but let's go with that), you'd have to put 81/100 to the power of the number N of people with the downvote privilege stumbling upon that post. So for N=8, it's less than 20% already! The key response would be the same: one is still fairly likely to receive feedback, even though it is not mandatory.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 20, 2021 at 13:29
  • @E_net4 updated. Commented Sep 20, 2021 at 17:09

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