29

The current burn of the and tags has been underway for a week. Only 296 actions have been made on posts, 164 of them (55%) by one person (me), and 81 (27%) by a second person.

Daily participation for the two of us actively handling posts is more difficult because each day we have to try to find questions we haven't already close-voted; votes cast on the first day of the burn (May 16) didn't hit the normal review queue for four days (May 20) despite the Meta post for the burn having an easy link to filter on the tags.

A few posts have aged out of the close vote queue already; I cannot re-vote to close them for two weeks.

Other than the two of us, only 51 actions have been taken on posts being burninated in the course of 7 days. That's an average of fewer than 8 burnination actions per day, many of them just random users finding questions in the close vote queue and not participating in the burn.

The previous burn of the tag took over 11 days. Of the 2632 actions taken, 2005 (76%) were taken by only five people. The remaining 627 actions averaged 57 per day, the vast majority of them likely in the close vote review queue.

Before that took 18 days to burn only 327 questions. 439 actions were required with 198 (45%) taken by two people. The remaining participants took an average of 13 actions per day, probably just normal review queue activity.

When burninate requests are made, there seem to be quite a few people expressing support, some repeatedly and enthusiastically. But when the time comes to put forth the work to do the burninations, most of those so vocal about burning things with fire don't pitch in. Even in SOCVR, where the Meta post is pinned and closing questions is routine, nobody seems to want to click the link to filter their close queue to the burn tags; possibly because they'd rather use their limited close votes on other poor quality posts on the site in preference to burninations.

Burnination is not sustainable with such low participation. Tags are being added to the backlog faster than they can possibly be removed at the current rates. Why is participation so low?

  • Is it too hard to find the current burnination in progress? Should the burn posts be featured or otherwise more easily findable? Other than the pinned chat post on SOCVR, it's not advertised anywhere.

  • Are burninations considered lower priority to other user-level moderation activities?

  • Have people simply lost interest in burnination?

  • Are people actively non-participating as a means of protest in hopes that SE will return "one-click" tag removal?

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  • 5
    "Burnination is not sustainable with such low participation. Tags are being added to the backlog faster than they can possibly be removed at the current rates" - as opposed to what? Not doing burninations at all? The backlog is going to fill either way Commented May 22, 2022 at 15:49
  • 6
    @ZoestandswithUkraine i was proposing increasing participation, not decreasing it to zero. Or, possibly adding a burn criteria that anyone who proposes burning a tag signs up for participating in its removal. Commented May 22, 2022 at 15:51
  • 18
    Aside that, you have a point. Burns have little interest, but I believe it's been like that historically too. We barely have the workforce to keep up with incoming posts, so a lot of burns get deprioritized by people because it's more valuable to fight incoming trash than to dispose of what we already have. SE's vote limits unfortunately means a choice has to be made for which to do. Based on current overall volume, a doubling or more in CV/delvote/flag limits would likely be in order Commented May 22, 2022 at 15:52
  • 5
    Don't think so (re: question points) - burninations suffer from the same issues as the rest of curation activities. Poorly designed systems (see review queues), obscurity, and the chore nature of the such activiites all heavily contribute lack of interest.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 22, 2022 at 15:54
  • 3
    Unfortunately again, asking SE for anything nice to help with burnination or moderation is likely not going to lead anywhere, at least in the short term. Maybe seeing a doubling of vote/flag limits in several months to a year doesn't help us right now. I think the only way we have a chance is doing onboarding ourselves. I'm not optimistic we can get SE involved to help with user onboarding to moderation activities. We do have a bit of an ongoing conversation with CMs about comment moderation systems that the CM at least seems optimistic about, so there's that. Commented May 22, 2022 at 15:56
  • 6
    Featuring throughout the burnination might be an idea, though, but I'm not sure that'll fly. To add insult to injury there too, the lack of featured slots does not help Commented May 22, 2022 at 15:58
  • 8
    Maybe people are just busy. Maybe we're just heading into summer in the Northern Hemisphere (which time tends to have lower activity). Maybe people are burned out by other things on MSO/MSE (e.g. the substantial number of featured posts, both currently and continuously for quite a while now). That participation is lower during such times is a primary reason we usually wait to start burninations until things are a bit less active on MSO/MSE. That is because burninations are considered to be a lower priority. The issue with waiting is that it's difficult to find a "relatively quite" time.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 22, 2022 at 17:18
  • 20
    The current tag removal process is too labor-intensive. It makes demands on its participants that are not imposed in any other context, such as requiring review and editing of all questions containing the tag. Commented May 22, 2022 at 19:04
  • 13
    I participated in burninations when they showed up in Hot Meta Posts. This seems to happen far less lately. So I am virtually no longer participating.
    – usr1234567
    Commented May 22, 2022 at 19:51
  • 3
    @chivracq: I have said that before. Most burnination should be semi-automated now.
    – Joshua
    Commented May 22, 2022 at 20:06
  • 15
    @usr1234567 HMP's are never there now, because the 6/8 available slots are always full of the most boring [featured] posts from SE. sigh
    – user17242583
    Commented May 22, 2022 at 20:07
  • 5
    If I've clicked on a featured blog, it was an accident. You could remove that stuff to free up space and I wouldn't complain. Commented May 23, 2022 at 4:36
  • 3
    I personally participated in burning of only one tag. I participated a little in other tag related activities though. With tags, my personal opinion is that we are allowing to create the problem first and then we are finding it and then we are fixing it; this of-course cannot scale. I asked a question in past about this. Proposal was rejected and yes; rejected for good reasons. I am not sure how we can avoid creating this problem in first place instead of fixing it latter.
    – Amit Joshi
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 11:40
  • 8
    I've been a (registered) user for ~6 years and I was TODAY years old when I discovered that "normal" users are supposed to participate in the burnination process. I thought it was just a handful of very-high-rep users and mods kinda "in charge" of that. Could that be the problem: that many people don't know they are supposed to help?
    – walen
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 17:16
  • 4
    @DavidG In some cases, bad tags encourage people to ask off-topic questions so it's better to get rid of them. And bad tagging just makes it harder to find things.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 17:38

6 Answers 6

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There's several things I've seen on this front that are feeding into this

  1. We lost a lot of curation community in general. The number of nominations for the 2021 moderator election was the lowest ever. Interest in community curation is low. But it's not zero either
  2. Burninations are always an "extra" activity for everyone involved. Some folks do a lot, quite a few do a little.
  3. Rodgort has a natural limitation: the SE API. A decent number of folks who have participated in burninations historically are now moderators (myself included). If we delete a question, Rodgort shows nothing because the SE API shows nothing. The post simply vanishes. It distorts how many are actually participating.
  4. It's summer. Participation in SO drops a bit because many places aren't in school to help drive questions (for better and worse)
  5. We are running more frequent burninations thanks to Zoe. It might be burning people out more (burninations are tedious to perform)

In general, things are just... slow right now. It's too soon to worry about burninations not being completed because no burnination can truly fail (we can ask a Dev to bulk remove the tag and move on).

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    6. There's no incentive to participate in burninations, other than a mildly warm fuzzy feeling.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 13:02
  • 9
    Eh don't quite agree with points 4 and 5 here, In Apr-May-Jun 2019, we had burninations almost continuously. It is what happened in July 2019, which started the downward trend on the tag moderation, which almost died sometime six to eight months later. Commented May 23, 2022 at 13:29
  • 2
    "we can ask a Dev to bulk remove the tag and move on" Given our luck recently getting any development staff attention for anything, I somewhat doubt this.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 14:17
  • 1
    In general, things are just... slow right now... well this one Closing up shop is waiting since 2018, so are many others
    – Vickel
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 17:09
  • 5
    7. Without the featured meta posts we had a few years ago, I wasn't aware the burns had ever restarted. Commented May 23, 2022 at 18:28
  • 3
    @Connor you don’t get internet points for burninations…
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 18:35
  • 3
    What is Rodgort? Commented May 23, 2022 at 20:35
  • 2
    Done, added a link to the dashboard, @andrewJames. Rodgort is a SOBotics initiative that helps track burnination progress, zombie tags, etc.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 20:38
  • 2
    @andrewJames Probably a play on Trogdor?
    – Drew Reese
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 22:58
  • 11
    SO/SE haven't "lost a lot of curation community," they actively drove them away. Now they reap what they sowed. Told you so. Commented May 24, 2022 at 5:40
  • 3
    8. People got tired of "punny" burnination post titles clogging up HMP and stopped clicking them. I did, at least.
    – walen
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 8:48
  • 1
    9. SE changed the rules about the community bulletin, that literally killed many community driven efforts.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 15:37
  • 2
    @Braiam if only mods had a tool that could... assist with that
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 15:40
  • 1
    The current tool is being overtaken by long slow-moving initiatives by SE that SE wants featured, to feature burninations often we'd have to un-feature those often.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 16:40
  • 1
    @walen I just don't buy that someone could have previously been clicking the links and reading the posts and not understand that the process was community driven when it is laboriously covered/applied in every single of said posts.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 21:54
36

Machavity covers a lot of this in general, but I wanted to add one more piece to this from a perspective of someone who's done burninations and who's also spear-headed a few.

I don't get anything for doing this.

There's no recognition or glory for doing this kind of work, and it is quite labor intensive. It's also the case that - maybe five or six years ago I had a bit more interest in hanging out on Stack Overflow after work, and felt motivated to actually help out the site.

Nowadays that motivation is gone and there is nothing that Stack Overflow is doing to try to bring me back over to help out. Despite these cleanup efforts being in our mutual best interests, because I have no incentive to do them, I am personally disinterested in them.

The only better thing to do would be to semi-automate it and give it to the company to sort out. If a group of people can identify that a tag should be burninated, then automation can carry the rest. It won't be perfect, but it'll be better than three or four dedicated volunteers trying to dig an olympic-sized swimming pool on a hot summers' day with only sporks.

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    "There's no recognition or glory for doing this kind of work, and it is quite labor intensive" remove the intensive labor and you will see many more people participating.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:27
  • 1
    @Braiam: Not really...I think we're still intrinsically motivated by some kind or recognition from someone - if not the community then maybe the benevolent dictators that we're still beholden to. Maybe some of the disconnect (at least from my perspective) is that said benevolent dictators have taken our participation for granted and have not circled back to work with us as was promised to us time and time again.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:55
  • 1
    @Braiam the most labor intensive part is fixing salvageable questions that need more than just a trivial tag change. Unless SE can get Google, etc's AI research teams to help out I don't think that's feasible to automate. Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:55
  • 1
    @Makoto when the objective was simply removing the tag, we managed to process several questions a day.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 20:26
  • @DanIsFiddlingByFirelight Actually, doing exactly that helps already. There has been plenty of times that I pushed something for a "trivial change" and then it was answered, closed, further edited or upvoted. Don't undersell the power of the active tab page.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 20:27
  • 9
    @Braiam: Never in the history of ever have we just made edits that only removed the tag. The guiding advice was to always clean up the post as well as remove the tag, since there was a virtually guaranteed chance that this question wouldn't see the light of day for some years, so it made sense to (and was consistent with our manifesto of) make substantial edits to posts.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 20:28
  • 1
    @Makoto are you sure? Mandela effect? We never had that as a requirement until this happened.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 20:35
  • 6
    @Braiam: Hmm. Fall 2014 looks about the time when I was really engaged with the community and was paying active attention to the norms of the site and looking to make a difference, so this is probably when I took that advice to heart. However even before that, edits still had to be substantial per the guidance on the privilege itself. That guidance still explicitly discouraged "trivial" edits unless you were trusted, but even then you were always encouraged to improve as much as you could with a post. I mean...why would you bother editing a post otherwise?
    – Makoto
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 21:10
  • 1
    @Makoto you still make an input to the site even if you've become disinterested... because of understandable reasons.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 22:59
  • 4
    I think what helped when I teamed up with BR/the SOCVR room etc... we also had Shog... so we could draw a line and just say - "yeah - that's enough effort - let's nuke it"... I think we're working on getting that back (don't quote me - I've been on hiatus trying to sort out life/health stuff - so need to read back on conversations in the mod room)
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 23:00
  • 1
    @Makoto It wasn't something "required", was something that was asked for, because people were bothered that users were only editing the tag without fixing anything else (to be fair, some post do not need fixing).
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 15:34
10

Perhaps more of the community would be interested in participating if the name of the process was more descriptive?

While it seems that Stack Overflow doesn't collect native language statistics, based on my personal observations, I suspect a considerable proportion of our user base speaks another language as their first. Even for native speakers, using a neologism with an extremely obscure origin probably isn't the best way to attract community participation. Although, I admit the avatar is pretty sweet.

Unless you're very familiar with the site, " is being burninated" doesn't actually help you understand what's happening or what the community would like your assistance with. Even if you vaguely infer that someone is setting fire to something, it can still be confusing.

That said, I'm not exactly sure what a better name would be that can easily fit into the sidebar.

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  • 7
    I think you make a good point. It's not as catchy, but even something like "[$tag] is being retired" would probably communicate the actual intent a little better.
    – zcoop98
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 15:32
  • 3
    "removed" is even better, @zcoop98 - if I weren't involved in tags, I'd scratch my head about the meaning of "retired" just as much as "burninated"...
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 15:34
  • 3
    Yeah I don't know what burnination is. Came to this topic because it's trending on the sidebar.
    – Chuck
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 17:23
  • 4
    Whatever term is used, the request for help needs to be included in the title. "[$tag] is being [whatever] - please help clean up posts". walen made an excellent point that it isn't obvious that the community at large is meant to be participating. There should be an explicit call to action in the title.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 17:40
  • @BSMP but that's not fun,
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 17:43
  • 2
    Nitpick: I would argue that the term "burninate"'s origin is not exactly obscure, considering how popular Homestarrunner used to be back in the day. A sizeable portion of today's tech workforce grew up watching these. I get that Trogdor/StrongBad/Homestarrunner may no longer be modern, but that's kind of like saying "Gone With The Wind" or "Bob Dylan" are obscure because the media was released outside of your lifetime.
    – codewario
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 18:09
  • 5
    @BendertheGreatest I disagree. According to the Developer Survey, over 2/3rds of developers are under age 34. That episode was published 19 years ago. Making the oldest individuals in that demographic 15 years old at the time. The expectation that a majority of users of this website will have ever heard of Homestar Runner, much less seen that particular content, is not very likely. Commented May 23, 2022 at 18:14
  • 7
    To be fair, what burnination is is covered in the FAQ, which linked to in all stage two and higher burn posts. Don't take away one of the only fun things about this process (we already lost punny titles for stages 2-4, and renaming back to the punny title upon completion is not a requirement).
    – codewario
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 18:24
  • 4
    @BendertheGreatest Yeah, the punny titles are basically the only redeeming quality. RIP Commented May 23, 2022 at 18:25
  • @BendertheGreatest That still requires someone to care enough to look it up. And it seems like there might be some people who just keep scrolling but would otherwise help if they realized help was being requested.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 8:55
  • @BSMP If they don't care to click the link explaining what the burnination process means to Stack Overflow/Stack Exchange, why should we think they would be interested in cleaning up tags? I don't mean for that to sound pointed (can't think of another way to word it at the moment), it's an honest question.
    – codewario
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 18:09
  • @BendertheGreatest The comment on the question from walen saying that's what happened to them. But in general when people ask how to get more people to look at their question, writing a clear, interesting title is one of the suggestions. I would not assume that people interested in tag clean up necessarily click on every question in Meta.
    – BSMP
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 19:29
10

I originally posted this in the comments, but figured this deserves an answer post of its own. Some of the language has changed from the original comments, for attribution and since I don't have a character limit here.

One thing I've noticed as a newer burn participant is that some tags require more work than others. seemed to get burninated rather quickly, but most posts with that tag were off topic. As a result, VTC accordingly. Conversely, with both and , many more questions are on topic. This means I can't just VTC with a few clicks; I need to be more intelligent about the improvements that can be made to the post, including but not limited to:

  • Other, more appropriate tags
  • Formatting improvements
  • Grammatical improvements
  • Identifying superfluous (re: unnecessary) language
  • Ensuring none of my changes actually cause harm to posts under subjects where I may not be a subject-matter expert (which burnination invites editors to leave their comfort zone)

Putting the post under a magnifying glass reduces throughput, especially when I and others are busy with other things outside of the SO community. It's great if those participating in a tag burnination give attention to these things when they have the time to; but we are not always subject matter experts for the main topic at hand on the post. Editing out all problems with a post can be a significant effort especially when you are not an SME in that space.

While I agree that burnination is an excellent opportunity to review and curate other content, the concerns brought forth about more being asked with no additional incentive are also very valid shortcomings with the process. As we edit questions to remove tags those questions will get more visibility anyways. As Oleg pointed out, the burn process can result in breathing new life into forgotten, stagnant questions.

Along that same vein, others watching tags on tag-burned posts would be able to make additional changes in place of having content curation be a goal of burnination. After all, the end goal of burnination is to get the bad tag removed. Everything else is a nice to have but I don't think the community has the steam to burn at a good pace with the current requirements.

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  • 1
    "the burn process can result in breathing new life into forgotten, stagnant questions." which I've seen happening several times. Heck, I've edited questions that have sit unanswered for years to simply remove a tag, and gets answered couple of hours later. Mixing burnination with other tasks is something that should be optional, not required.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 15:20
  • 1
    I agree, the curation aspect should be encouraged, but not exist as a requirement. The curation aspect is a noble goal and isn't incorrect in spirit, but it's a chore and we don't seem to have the volunteers necessary to complete burnination with curation with any reasonable swiftness. I do still try to improve posts as much as I can, and would continue to do so even if it becomes an optional suggestion, but I also don't want to get smacked on the wrist if I miss a potential improvement or if I hypothetically decide to "churn-n-burn" quickly.
    – codewario
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 15:39
  • 2
    This meta Q&A motivated me to clean up [write] in [c] and [c++] tags (only about a dozen questions IIRC, done now), and have a look at non [python] instances of it (stackoverflow.com/…). I was able to add useful tags to the posts that had any value, and even upvote answers on a couple of them. (So they won't be popping up bumped by the community bot in future). Even upvoted one question out of the probably 20 or more I looked at. I have no interest in spending time looking at questions in languages I don't know well enough to curate Commented May 24, 2022 at 16:53
3

Has the community lost interest in burnination?

No, it's not that the community lost interest in burnination, it's that their interest was killed. At first, burnination were fun and kept people engaging. We could make our puns, joke about bad questions that use bad tags, etc. Now it's just a slugfest of unnecessary procedures that doesn't help make burninations easier. There's even references to this on the comments "[...] It makes demands on its participants that are not imposed in any other context, [...]" Those things don't make burninations easier, and actually limits the participation to the smallest group of users: those that have all moderation privileges.

Also, something that current users don't understand, you don't need many users to complete a burnination, you need multiple burninations running at the same time to keep people interested, since not all tags are sexy. In the "wild west" time of burninations, we had +20 burninations running at the same time. So, instead of a user doing a single burnination, you have multiple users doing multiple burninations. That keeps stuff fresh.

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    I've noticed that you consistently seem to get downvoted here despite saying things that seem eminently reasonable to me. Commented May 24, 2022 at 1:38
  • @KarlKnechtel The hivemind doesn't like being told that policies put in place forever ago, when the site was small and said policies could be executed in a reasonable timeframe and with a reasonable amount of effort, are no longer sustainable. It seems to mostly be because said policies were enunciated by one of SO's (long-gone) founders or one of SO's (long-gone) super-moderators, and like Moses with the Ten Commandments, what those people proposed years ago is The One True Way and challenging it is heresy of the worst kind.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 8:25
  • 1
    @IanKemp interesting, since it happens the opposite: the "hivemind" actually rejects the learning's of the old gods. It's like we want to hit the same rock again.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 14:57
  • 5
    @KarlKnechtel careful with thinking that a reasonable point of view is correct. I've seen many people make that mistake and get burned. Something reasonable but based on a false premise is still wrong, even if it leads you to the desired results. I actually want people to maybe consider not doubling down on the current behavior and look for evidence that challenges their views so they can be verified, because it seems like it seems to be doing the opposite on several issues (topicness, tagging, naa, etc.) and that worries me because nothing good will come from those.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 15:06
0

Yes, and the reason is simple: burnination has been fundamentally broken for a long time, and most people involved in it have finally realised this and stopped wasting their time on a painful, pointless, joyless exercise.

There's nothing quite like painstakingly sifting through hundreds of questions, one by one, reading and understanding each question and potentially editing it manually to remove the tag to be burninated, and heaving a sigh of relief when you're done... only to see a variation of that same tag be nominated for burnination a year, or less, later.

Burnination is a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. As a software developer, it's my job to build a door that doesn't swing open in the breeze, not clean up after the damn horse again and again and again. Because that's wasteful, and I have better things to do with my time.

Until or unless burnination is made mostly unnecessary (by SE Inc. restricting the creation of new tags); and/or far less manual and far less convoluted (by SE Inc. building tools to streamline the process, while simultaneously throwing Shog's arcane burnination laws into the trashbin of history where they belong), people just aren't going to bother.

It definitely doesn't help that the Meta.SO moderation community is continually shedding users at an incredible rate. I personally have stopped participating in any sort of moderation since my most recent suspension (in which one of my crimes was cited as, I kid you not, the use of sarcasm) and given Stack Overflow's current trajectory (nose-first into the ground at terminal velocity from 20km up) I don't see myself ever resuming.

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  • 15
    None of your recent suspensions cited one of your crimes as "the use of sarcasm". They were about rude, condescending comments that you left, directed at other users. You insulted "web designers" as "the bane of usable web sites", you called a group of people "drunken monkeys", you said "anyone who posts a question that can be answered by a Google search is a garbage human being", and more. It's not unexpected for me to have a higher bar for issuing suspensions for rude comments than other mods, but yours haven't even been borderline by my standards. This angst isn't working; try a new look.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 9:20
  • Note, Shog is more like a sanity check, and came out of necessity, since there isn't the tooling to make it easier. We can relegate them again to sanity check if the tooling is there so that burnination is both easy and revertible.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 15:17
  • 1
    Yes. As a casual observer of MSO, the constant need to remove tags always struck me as a symptom of a problem rather than a useful activity to undertake. Why are there so many tags that need to be cleaned up?
    – bmm6o
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 21:36
  • @bmm6o years of neglect for the tag system on SE's side, pretty simple. It accumulates, and I agree it's a symptom of a larger problem.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 22:16
  • 3
    FWIW, I'm đź’Ż on replacing overwrought rules with better tools: the big problem now (and forever) has been the lack of a clean "undo" - which means poorly thought-out (or half-finished) efforts end up creating a LOT of extra work (that folks are even less motivated to undertake than the original effort). The limited tools available for mass tag ops inevitably destroy (or rewrite) history right now, which is just... Awful. There are logs, but they're incomplete and hard to access (even for the handful of people who HAVE access). It's a mess.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 26, 2022 at 19:19

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