20

I had a "No longer needed" flag declined on a comment that was, in its entirety:

stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask

I'm not going to link the context, because I don't believe this could ever be a useful comment, unless it was a response to "Where is the 'How to ask' page?".

These sorts of comments (including ones with some words around the link, like "Please read How to Ask") give no insight into what the commenter thinks is wrong with the question, and I'd like to see less of them. If the asker were the sort of person who would comb through a help page to figure out the problem with their question, then they would have already done so (it's linked on the "Ask question" page). Frankly, even as an experienced reviewer, I'm sometimes unsure what the commenter thinks the issue is. Commenters should put in the bare minimum effort required to at least articulate a particular problem (e.g., "This question needs a [mre]"), not just post a link to the generic page and hope someone figures it out.

Am I wrong? Are these comments ever useful? Has anyone ever responded to one of these by fixing the issues with the post?

And if not, can we agree that such comments can be freely flagged as "No longer needed"?

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  • 2
    It's a bit ironic that this is the entire comment of the declined comment flag. I've had what I think is very useful comments go missing. I'm not sure about it not being useful at all though. It's certainly much less useful than some tailored guidance. But it's my impression that the links in the user interface when posting a Question are treated like the manual to your new phone. Do you read it? :)
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 18:57
  • @Scratte The manual for my phone is perhaps a bad example, because knowing the ins and outs of Android is...well, what I do for a living. And so I have, in fact, read many articles about all the various features of my phone :-)
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 19:10
  • 9
    In general, I'm not sure that whatever utility they may have (and I'm skeptical that they have any) is outweighed by the...terseness...of having a link to a general page shoved at you without any clue what part of it to look at. If people really are fixing questions after being handed the how-to-ask page and nothing else, I'd love to hear about it. Maybe I'd start linking it to more people in my (longer) comments. But I'm pretty skeptical that that is actually happening. And if it's not getting people to actually fix things, then it's just noise.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 19:10
  • 1
    I tend to agree, but i don't necessarily want to express as much because it's easy to say the same thing about downvotes, in that it too is just a "something is wrong but I won't tell you what," ;)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 19:13
  • 6
    @KevinB While that's true, downvotes don't clutter the space below the question, generate notifications for the OP, or prevent Roomba deletion of old zero-score questions.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 19:16
  • 3
    In all honesty, the commenter should be mocked for not using the [ask] shortcut, but I think that heads back to Scratte's comment about the phone manual. Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 19:54
  • 4
    I'm not saying it's particularly useful. I'm just saying it's not totally useless. To me it's far better than "What have you tried?". It does seem lazy to me. A tailored comment would be in order. Personally I'd never just leave a link like that.
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 20:06
  • 1
    I only link to How to Ask when it is clear that the OP has made no effort to understand the site and how it works. Reading How to Ask for the first time may be a little intimidating, but at least it gives the impression that this isn't just some run-of-the-mill forum. Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 0:43
  • What about the age of the comment? I think after a week or so, NLN should be OK. But give the asker a chance to read the comment as it is clearly addressed to him and not usefull for anyone else. Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 5:19
  • 2
    The fact that so many experienced users find themselves posting this link (and many experienced users seem to have it, or something like it, in their clipboard at all times), is an indication that there is a problem with onboarding new users to the site. We can blame users for posting pictures of code, or asking questions with no context, ect. But, in general, blaming users is a sign that not enough time was put into human-centered design in the first place. That still other users feel they need to step up with links to docs, is doubly troubling and increases the overall noise of SO.
    – Mark
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 23:23
  • 4
    While I agree that such a comment is not the most descriptive, I think it's important to keep this in perspective. Users are free to downvote bad posts without comment, so the fact that somebody took the time to give the OP a direct link to the how-to-ask page is above and beyond the expectation. I do think that a more personalized comment increases the chances of the OP fixing their post, though. Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 1:06
  • 1
    Considering how often people get barked at for posting just a link to a site that answers the OP's question, it seems odd that just a link to the How To page would be an acceptable comment. Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 16:19
  • 1
    @DonBranson disagreement - you seem to not have been active on Meta for a while, so I am not sure how up to speed you are, but nowadays voting here mostly means "I disagree for whatever reason", and only in some cases "this is not a useful question". Apparently, this is a bit of a contentios issue
    – 0Valt
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 22:45

8 Answers 8

33

First, I admit that it would be better with a detailed explanation.

But for those questions where it's clear that the asker just have not missed a little detail, but simply have absolutely no idea about how to ask for help, then I think it's completely ok to post such a comment AND cast a close vote. If the question get closed, it's up to OP if they want to correct it or not. If they don't want to read that page, it's their problem.

But if the question is a few days old, then it's quite unlikely that such a comment (or any comment for that matter) will be addressed by OP, so I think a flag for NLN could be appropriate.

5
  • Regarding casting a close vote, I'd like to add that it depends on what the question is like. If it is simply unclear, but there is an attempt to describe the problem, I think close vote can wait, and we definitely should use a more detailed comment to let the OP know what the community expects from them. If in some hours, OP does not update the question, nor provides more feedback, closing is appropriate (we can also use SOCVR help then). Short, blunt code requests can be closed right away (and, from experience, I know they usually are). Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 8:21
  • 1
    @WiktorStribiżew Why wait? The asker have had all the time in the world to polish the question before posting it. Best to get it closed as soon as possible. It can always be reopened. A few hours is way too much. A few minutes is more reasonable. If you feel you need more than a few minutes, well, delete the question, rephrase it and undelete it.
    – klutt
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 21:18
  • @klutt I think not a lot of people, especially newbies, are aware of the delete/edit/undelete trick. More likely it will simply get closed and they'll go away and tell all their friends how useless and unfriendly StackOverflow is. Commented Sep 12, 2021 at 2:52
  • @MarkRansom True, but the real problem lies within the SO organization, not within the community. Those who make decisions are essentially just interested in getting traffic to the web site. So they try to send the message to everybody that it's so extremely friendly and welcoming without telling what the expectations are. And then they just leave all that to us.
    – klutt
    Commented Sep 12, 2021 at 2:57
  • 1
    I have to disagree about the NLN - the only thing that would make it NLN is if the question was edited so that it's no longer a bad question. In the meantime the comment serves as a useful signpost to others stumbling across the question that it doesn't meet our standards. Commented Sep 12, 2021 at 3:20
21

I have to admit I'm guilty of linking to this on questions where the OP clearly hasn't put any effort at all into their post and just dumped their problems on to someone else.

So picture this scenario:

A Dilbert comic strip with three panels. The first two panels depict two characters talking, one of which is the main character with the iconic curved up black and red striped tie. The main character tells the other one: "I've been asked to explain our technical issue in terms you can understand", to which the other character replies: "Good". The main character then yells: "THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!". The last panel depicts the main character speaking to a dog sitting on a couch, talking about how the conversation went, saying: "He was dense AND touchy. It's a bad combination."

I can either (and used to) get into a debate with the OP and try to get them to understand that we're here to build a collection of questions and answers that benefit the world at large, not just the one having the problem, or give them a link to a page that is supposed to be purposely designed to explain some of this without spreading toxicity.

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    But.. then they may go and read it, but still not understand what they're suppose to do. I've commented on lots of new Question and I've either had no response or generally a response from someone that's clearly confused. Very rarely do I get a snarky reponse.
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 22:07
  • 2
    @Scratte - If thats a case then thats a separate discussion about how to make that page more effective (if needed). I've had many occasions where an OP thinks that asking them to show their own effort is "rude" and I have no interest in getting into pointless debates
    – Sayse
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 9:14
  • 2
    @Scratte Anyone actually writing code has to continuously learn (aka read and understand new material) so my expectation that they can read and understand a short piece of text, considerately designed to be easy to absorb, shouldn't be considered unreasonable.
    – gboffi
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 16:34
  • 1
    Some questions are such dumpster fires that it's impossible to leave a positive comment; toxicity is an almost impossible to resist reaction. It's nice to have an alternative. Commented Sep 12, 2021 at 2:47
14

This is how the "Ask a Question" wizard currently looks: enter image description here

Do you see the How to Ask help page link? Do you get the impression that reading it is really, really important? Would you pause writing your question to check it out?

I wouldn't.

Waiting for an answer and instead getting a comment such as "Please take a look at the How to Ask page." would be the first occasion for me to realise maybe I really, really should take a look at that page. Or for that matter to realise that it even exists.


Now, dropping a bare URL comment like "https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask" is a poor way of doing the right thing. It's obscure, it's not actionable, and many other things which mean it will not work as well as it could. With a tiny bit of extra effort, one could make it work much better.

But it is still fundamentally doing the right thing. And it is much more useful than doing nothing.

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  • 1
    I don't think it's still the right thing after it gets spammed and takes so much space. I agree that sometimes questions might be stupid and out of place, but I've seen many people bash the one asking the question like they made the worst mistake of their life. I agree that the question should be as short and precise as possible, but the commenters should also do the same.
    – Kleo Zane
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 13:29
  • 3
    @KleoZane If you see comments that "bash the one asking the question like they made the worst mistake of their life", please flag them. I don't see how just pointing people at a help page would constitute bashing, though. Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 11:02
9

There is no scenario where "Go read how to ask" is more appropriate than casting a close vote and letting the close reason inform the user how to proceed. This link in particular already gets provided to the user during the question asking process.

It doesn't tell the user what is wrong, it doesn't help them fix it, and it doesn't help move the question toward closure for an appropriate reason. If you've already cast a close vote, there's no need to provide a link, the close reason will do that when enough people vote to close it. If you want to assist the user in improving their post, a comment requesting clarification would be more useful.

I'd like for comments that are link only to that site's help articles to be in the list of things that get short-cut deleted with a flag rather than requiring mod review

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    A new comment flag: Link-only comment to the help-center ;)
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 20:39
  • 1
    Only thing I have to add is to consider what users without sufficient reputation to vote to close should do... Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 20:41
  • 3
    If you can leave a comment, you can cast a flag for an appropriate close reason... though that UI/wording is confusing
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 9, 2021 at 20:48
  • 2
    "... and letting the close reason inform the user how to proceed." Which leads us to another well-known problem: Close reason is often strange if not directly wrong...
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:03
  • 1
    @4386427 is right. One of the most common reasons to vote to close is that they didn't show their attempt to solve the problem. The usual close reason we use is "Needs more focus", but the canned text for this says nothing about making an attempt and posting a MRE. But just adding a link to the how-to-ask page may not help the OP, either.
    – Barmar
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 2:56
9

Merely dumping a link to the how-to-ask page is not better than posting a Let Me Google That For You link. In fact, it's worse, because the latter could at least contain some relevant search terms.

It's like someone is driving their car, blissfully unaware that they made a minor infraction like speeding by 3 mph, and a state trooper pulls them over and hands them a three page "Introductory course in all the rules of the road" and moves on.

The driver reads the course, has no clue which of the two hundred and seventy four rules they disobeyed, go to the pump, inflate their tyres a bit hoping that was it and continue their journey.

If you cannot take a couple of seconds and type additional information, like "It seems like your code is a non-repro, where is the part that foos the bars?", in addition to pasting the link to how-to-ask, you're probably tired, angry or unwilling to help that person.

That's okay, but then just don't post that comment at all and move on. Below the speed limit, please.

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    ".. the not-so-helpful how-to-ask page..." If so the help page must be fixed instead of saying: Don't link to it. The reason for having a help page is ... to help.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:07
  • 1
    It is a great starting point for learning to write a question. It does not answer "What is wrong with my question?". It is not helpful in that scenario.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:12
  • Assuming a well written "How to ask" then that should be obvious in most cases. Maybe it currently isn't and need to be fixed.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:25
  • 1
    Dozens of users have proven to be incapable of writing one readable answer to "What is a NullReferenceException?", so I highly doubt it is possible to write a comprehensible page explaining everything that can be wrong with a question, especially given there are hundreds of thousands of opinions on what is considered "wrong".
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:35
  • I do not claim that it's easy to write a good help page. But saying "Our help page is not worth to link - don't borther" is IMO not the way to go
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:41
  • 2
    I am not saying that page is not worth linking to, I'm saying it is not useful to only drop a link to it.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:45
  • 2
    okay... and I'm saying that there are many many poor question on SO that don't even have the basic parts of "asking a question" in place. For those question a link only is fine IMO.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:49
  • 3
    No, it is not. It is nothing better than literally posting a comment "You're doing it wrong". Again, if you can't post constructive criticism pinpointing exactly how OP could improve their post, you post nothing, optionally exercise your voting rights, and move on.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:51
  • and that's exactly where we disagree. IMO a link to a "How to ask" should be helpful for questions that doesn't even fulfil the basics. I don't think we can get this further than agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 11:23
  • 2
    To you, an experienced user, it's clear what's missing from such questions. To the one asking it is not. You cannot recognize what you don't know, not even if it's mentioned somewhere, maybe even cryptically, in a three page document. Again, that page is a great starting point, but if a user doesn't get it right, it's up to other users to educate them what they got wrong. If users don't want to do that, users should move along and definitely not drop a useless link and pat themselves on the shoulder for being helpful.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 11:32
  • 1
    Example: Title: "Problems with C code". Question: 80 lines of code followed by the text line "My code isn't working - why?". That's one type of question we see every day in the C tag. If the "How to ask" page doesn't make it clear to OP "what is missing" then the problem is the "How to ask" page.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 11:41
  • 2
    Example: A question with an exact dump of a homework assignment followed by "I tried several thinks but it doesn't work - why?" Again: If the "How to ask" page doesn't make it clear to OP "what is missing" then the problem is the "How to ask" page.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 11:43
  • Example: stackoverflow.com/questions/69131381/…
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 11:45
  • 3
    Yes, I know terrible questions get asked every minute. My point is that no comment, or any comment, really, is better than just dumping that link. If they couldn't be bothered reading how to ask a good question before asking such an atrocious question, why do you think they will after getting just a link to that page? I think that just dumping that link does more harm than good. They will get to it, eventually, for example from the close message.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 12:02
7

Commenters should put in the bare minimum effort required to at least articulate a particular problem... not just post a link to the generic page and hope someone figures it out.

No.

The onus is absolutely not on anyone else but the asker to go to the effort of making their question answerable. By posting a comment to the how-to-ask page, the commenter is actively being helpful to the asker; they could instead do nothing, or downvote and VTC without leaving any comment.

In fact I'd argue the last is what everyone should be doing, as any attempt to be helpful nowadays that is not the equivalent of trying to squeeze blood out of a stone when it comes to askers, seems to be considered unhelpful. As this question demonstrates.

And please, stop wasting mods' time by raising completely irrelevant flags on comments. "No longer needed"'s flavour text is "This comment is outdated, conversational or not relevant to this post"; a link to how-to-ask is none of those things. Having a personal beef with a comment's content is not grounds to flag it.

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    "The onus is absolutely not on anyone else but the asker to go to the effort of making their question answerable" - true. "stop wasting mods' time by raising completely irrelevant flags on comments. "No longer needed"" - true. "By posting a comment to the how-to-ask page, the commenter is actively being helpful to the asker" - false. You do not elaborate at all why you think so. Posting a useless link is not worse than doing nothing.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 7:27
  • I would tend to agree here. downvote and close is the most useless thing here. The chances of question getting reopened is like winning the lottery (next to impossible). Yeah link only comments to "how to ask" is not helpful (However, i generally never see that anyway, and if i do its because of an atrocious question). Giving a user the ability to read how to ask and better their question is factors better than giving an anonymous downvote, closing the question and giving them a question ban... Also agree with all the comments so far, as to the problem being with the help page, and the site.
    – TheGeneral
    Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 0:56
  • Best Answer to me here, one should nearly be "Happy" to (still) find Qt's (older than 30d) with a Comment linking to the 'How to ask' Page, that means that the Comment/Link "worked" and the @OP reacted quickly to improve the Qlt of their Qt, as such (originally LQ) Qt's rarely survive the 'Roomba' Clean-up... (And for myself would even "motivate" me to post a (2nd/better) Solution in the small Tag I answer...)
    – chivracq
    Commented Sep 12, 2021 at 16:26
6

Is a link to the "How to ask" help page a useful comment?

It really should be...

If it isn't then there is a problem with the "How to ask" help page.

Well... this may be a "grey area" but for the many, many zero-effort, give-me-the-code, "it's not working" as problem description, etc. type of questions posted on e.g. the C tag, a link to the help page should do.

In case of a question missing one little specific piece of information but otherwise being good, it's better to explicit comment on the missing part.

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  • 1
    You mean that link should work as well as a "RTFM"?
    – Clockwork
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 9:43
  • 7
    @Clockwork In my mind we are here to help build a "database" full of useful information in relation to programming. We are not here to educate users in how to use the site. When someone doesn't know how to use the site, there need to be a generic page that can help. In this case the "How to ask" page. And in case the "How to ask" page isn't helpful, it must be fixed.
    – 4386427
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 9:49
  • 1
    I think I understand what you mean. In the original post, the problem underlined is that linking to the help page doesn't help if someone actually tried to do it well, to which you said it's good to clearly tell them the missing part rather than point them to the generic page they probably already read. And generally speaking, for someone who clearly doesn't know the rules at all, then we should point to the help page (unless it's someone who doesn't care, of course) which should be clear and concise enough that people don't feel even more lost after reading it.
    – Clockwork
    Commented Sep 10, 2021 at 10:43
3

Using the link can be useful - or useless. If it's just the bare link, I don't see how it would be helpful or welcoming. Done right, I have seen questions improved on a number of occasions.

First, frequently when someone gets downvotes or close votes they want to know why, and a silent response can be frustrating.

So, noticing which comments seem to result in helpful changes and also convey welcomeness, I stole one from David. Then, I made changes to communicate better that we really are interested to help, that other people out there want to help, and OPs aren't greeted with downvotes plus unexplained silence. I also wanted to communicate less "here are the rules and you better follow them or get harangued" and more "here are some tips so more people take time to consider your question and make a response."

Also, it's kind of tuned to questions where I am inclined to close-vote, but am not really satisfied the close options explain why. Often that's a question like, "Here's my homework, please do it for me because I have to turn it in tomorrow." There are others, of course.

Now I keep a prepared comment which I'll use from time to time and tweak as needed:

Welcome to Stack Overflow! Certain questions here are more likely to get helpful answers. The more specific, the better. Questions with no code are generally more difficult to answer - people often skip right over them. So show your code for best results. If you encounter a specific technical problem during that attempt, we can help with that, and we want to - that’s part of why we’re here. To learn more about helping us help you, please start with How to Ask. If you’re really ambitious, read the tour.

I like having a ready comment stashed away on my phone so I don't have to make one up on the fly, and I've had a chance to think about what it says and the tone it conveys. And hopefully others that would ordinarily immediately close-vote a particular question will give the question time to ferment into something better, having seen a comment to guide the OP.

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    I also use canned comments, but I'm still undecided whether they are clearly better than just [ask]. It's very easy for such comments to mislead new people. I've seen enough questions go from bad to much, much worse – because they drowned in noise to be "more specific", exploded to "show your code", or slavishly focused on a "specific technical problem" that was the A to the actual Z problem. The [ask] is also ready made to help people ask better questions. Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 17:43
  • @MisterMiyagi I agree that ask is already designed to help address issues - but it's more of a list of things to do, and in many cases we can help them apply that by being specific by drawing their attention to a particular thing. For example, asking them to include an MCVE, when the rest of the list they're already doing fine. Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 18:14
  • Also, just using the link is off-putting to some people, they don't like the SO experience, and leave in a huff. My hope is to have that happen less often by going out of my way to say, "hey, we're actually here to help, but need X so we can." Commented Sep 11, 2021 at 18:16

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