139
votes

This has now been crafted into a community rule

It's becoming more and more evident that there are some users who feel very strongly about deletion on both sides of the issue. It's part of a larger issue of duplicate disputes, but a user cannot successfully vote to close or reopen a question more than once. It's now a chain close/reopen/delete/undelete war, and the latter two can be done without limit by the SE system.

This is now creating a lot of moderation issues that the moderator crew is ill-equipped to adjudicate (and we're stuck between a rock and a hard place because the behavior should be discussed but we don't want users called out either). We try not to pick sides unless there's a clear abuse of some sort of privilege (i.e. a user reopened a question to post an answer already directly present in the duplicate). But we can't allow messes like this to continue

Delete/undelete wars

It's clear we can't have nice things here, so, in lieu of status-planned SE code changes, I am proposing the following:

The SO moderators will consider it abusive to vote to delete or undelete another person's post more than once (excluding diamond moderators).

(To be clear, that's a maximum of one delete vote and one undelete vote per user per post, which can be cast in any order.)

Enforcement would be requested via flags and it would be a level playing field for all involved (i.e. we don't have to figure out which side "wins" in what are often semantic arguments). In other words, this would be an objective rule moderators could enforce to end the cycle via warnings and suspensions.

If you have an actual use case where you need to vote more than once that doesn't involve "But I think the other side is wrong" you need to speak now, or forever hold your delete votes.

46
  • 22
    So does the winning "side" of the war boil down to who has more voting volunteers between the two "mobs"? Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:18
  • 16
    @mickmackusa What I mean by "winner" is that if we (mods, community, etc) do nothing, the largest mob wins. If we diamond delete, the deleters win. And if we lock it, nobody wins. No matter which option we pick, somebody "loses"
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:20
  • 7
    Well, I think this decision benefits the "mob" that affiliate with and those with a "smaller mob" will not have the numbers to combat the decision of my mob. I see what you are doing and I understand; I'm just making an observation. Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:21
  • 7
    @PM2Ring As Machavity mentioned before, locking a post is quite heavy handed.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:34
  • 3
    @Baum Sure, but suspension is also rather heavy. And for Machavity's proposal to be effective, those who break this multiple delete rule after receiving a fair warning must receive a suspension.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:39
  • 5
    @PM2Ring That's true, but at least it would only affect users violating a rule set by Meta, rather than everyone who tries to interact with a post that happened to be subject to such a fight. Also, don't underestimate the value of a fair warning. The vast majority of users of this site is helpful and tries to follow the rules, especially among invested users who have the deletion privilege. Giving them a heads up will mostly be sufficient and usually will not end in heavy-handed actions like suspensions.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:47
  • 8
    How exactly is "consensus" being measured here? i.e. what criteria is going to be used to decide if this is something the community wants? Hopefully it's not just the vote ratio on the question (I might want to downvote the question for bad formatting, even though I agree with the proposal, say). If it is, what's the ratio? Maybe we could use votes on answers? I see Baum already has one in the affirmative, but that also has the issue mentioned above. I think it's important to include in the proposal, how it's decided if this is going to be implemented.
    – cigien
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:50
  • 5
    Should the counter “reset” after a significant edit of the post? Not sure how often this happens or if it makes a huge difference, but it makes sense to allow reevaluating the post’s merit after an edit. At least, could you clarify if one user should be allowed to cast one delete vote and one undelete vote on one post, or only one vote of any type in total? Commented May 24, 2021 at 2:09
  • 9
    @PM2Ring Well, this is the point at hand: Currently, there is no clear rule, so you can't really fault folks for using their privileges the way the system allows them to. What this post proposes is a change to the status quo, where we would have a more solid base for ending these voting wars (and, quite importantly, community backed guidance on how to resolve them). Of course, still do vote on the question and the answers as you see fit if you disagree with my opinion.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 2:30
  • 14
    @Machavity ko fights of all sorts are bad on Stack Overflow (edit-and-rollback for instance). It sounds to me like deletion is being way over-used here. I'm a big enthusiast for closing inappropriate questions that need closing, and I use the dupe hammer like crazy, but I am nowhere near so likely to vote to delete a question. I have 20000 close votes but only 3000 delete votes. On the whole, in fact, when it comes to duplicates, I want the duplicate to remain — closed but visible. It's like a "see also" in the great encyclopedia that we are all constructing together.
    – matt
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 6:28
  • 15
    I support this. It should be a coded rule of the system. I actually thought this was the way it already worked, probably because this is the way close votes already work. But it should work the same way close votes work; each individual should only get one bite at the apple. Commented May 24, 2021 at 13:17
  • 12
    @BrettCaswell Here's how this has been playing out for mods. A question gets an answer and a dupehammer. The answerer (or a sympathetic hammer) reopens. Another sympathetic hammer closes and sympathetic voters delete. Then the first group undeletes and reopens. Because the system has no limits, a question may now go through as many as a dozen cycles, and often for semantic reasoning that mods can't sort out (we can resolve many things, but not semantic disputes for on-topic content). As I said, the goal is to create a simple rule mods can enforce neutrally
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 13:59
  • 15
    If this would help fight against these people who run around and undelete everything, i'm all for it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 14:45
  • 4
    @mickmackusa The majority should typically win disputes, in any situation. Certainly on a crowd-moderated public site. So if there are more people who think a Q should be in state A vs state B, then it naturally will (and probably should) remain in state B. If everyone visiting a post were allowed a vote, that might not be a good idea... but the people qualified to weigh in are a select few who have 10k reputation or more.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:49
  • 4
    @cigien The main thing here is that some folks expressed displeasure with it in answers and they were not well received. What I think you might be missing is that Meta can, and does, reject bad ideas. Even a 50/50 vote would have made me skeptical of acceptance. And this proposal really did prove Meta works, in that folks have beat the idea up and made useful suggestions. This is the best any of us can do per what the folks who ran the network put forth.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 2, 2021 at 3:01

20 Answers 20

94
votes

I support this. One user, one vote, then let voting reach some sort of consensus.

If there is some serious disagreement regarding whether a post should stand, that's ground for a Meta discussion. If you think a post you already voted on is being handled incorrectly due to misuse of privileges (as opposed to disagreement about the post's merits), you can raise a custom moderator flag.

In either case, delete-undelete battles decided by voters' stamina are not constructive.

20
  • 18
    @RodArgumedo There are relatively few diamond moderators. If there is disagreement among us, it will be settled in a private room or on Meta if community input seems helpful, and not through deletion or undeletion battles. So the issue does not quite apply to elected moderators.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 1:50
  • 1
    "let voting reach some sort of consensus" how is consensus defined if the votes are essentially split in half. Wouldn't this be the opposite of consensus? Only the one that has 50% + 1 vote?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:21
  • 2
    consider editing to clarify what's your take on an option to raise mod flag when 10Ker can't cast un/delete vote. I ask because I have seen similar approach recommended for 3Kers who can't cast close vote, eg on questions with acitve bounties
    – gnat
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 8:09
  • 3
    Rather than considering something abusive, it is best to make this totally impossible to cast more than one delete/undelete votes per user per post (same as close/reopen). See Dalija's answer that suggests the right things: 1) this must be an SE feature, 2) warnings must be issued first and suspension should be the means of last resort (and I am talking generally now, I feel sad when I see any "power-user" suspended as SO loses expert knowledge and askers often have to wait before getting tangible help). Commented May 24, 2021 at 9:58
  • 4
    @Braiam If nothing approaching consensus is reached, as in your example, we should discuss the post on Meta instead of having voting wars.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:39
  • 10
    @WiktorStribiżew Sure, I would appreciate it if SE could implement this. And rest assured that we will not suspend anyone for not being aware of this post. The first step would definitely be a heads up.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:40
  • 1
    @gnat Sorry if I misunderstood, but I don't quite see how that issue falls into the scope of this Q/A about rules for users who can in fact vote. I feel like a separate post similar to the one you linked might make more sense here if we want to discuss that.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:56
  • 1
    @gnat Ah, thanks for clarifying. That's a sensible suggestion, but I did not come up with nice wording immediately. I'll think about it a bit.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:04
  • 1
    @BaummitAugen so, everyone should be penalized because a group? Just get these people suspended for a year for "low quality contributions" and be done with it. If the problem stops, that helped. If it doesn't, then we can try other solutions.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:22
  • 3
    @Braiam I agree with Machavity's answer that suspensions are not a good tool for this problem.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 19:16
  • 1
    @gnat Added a remark on how I think that would work.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 22:36
  • 1
    @BaummitAugen changing the system is less heavy handed? We are literally creating something for a fringe case. Aren't moderators exception handlers? Handle this exception and suspend the users for abusing the system and making the site worse keeping subpar content.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 14:28
  • 7
    @Braiam That comment again appears to be based on the assumption that those who undelete are clearly and unambiguously in the wrong. However, moderators are not the ultimate arbiters of technical merit.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:07
  • 1
    @BaummitAugen they don't argue their case however, so they seem to at least not being cooperative towards a solution. That refusal of cooperation means that they can't be trusted to use the tooling. Also, note that I made 0 reference towards which group should be suspended, but you immediately jumped to defend them. So, maybe evaluate your own biases before accusing me of having one.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:16
  • 10
    @Braiam with all due respect, I think Baum mit Augen was not wrong in assuming your preferences since you said "making the site worse keeping subpar content". Which is the only side that keeps the supposed subpar content? And that followed the "suspend the users". If the understanding is incorrect, please clarify what you meant instead.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:31
80
votes

I have no objections to single delete/undelete vote as a rule.


However, I would prefer that SE implements this feature rather than it is being enforced by moderators.

On the other hand, I can understand the sentiment behind this proposal and I don't see any better options at this moment.

The only thing I would ask, is that moderators warn first before handing out suspensions, because it is possible that user votes for the same question twice without even realizing. I am not saying that such warning has to be handed out for every question, once you know you can get in trouble for double voting, you can be more cautious when casting your vote.

19
  • 3
    Would also make it easier to enforce and avoid if it was implemented, by not needing/allowing either. Commented May 24, 2021 at 8:59
  • @Zoe What do you refer to by "either"... not needing/allowing deleting and undeleting posts? Are you suggesting that delete votes should not be cast?
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 9:06
  • 3
    Not needing enforcement and not allowing several delvotes, the latter causing the first ("either" itself referring to enforcing and avoiding). I was under the impression you meant hard blocking multiple delvotes by "I would prefer that SE implements this feature" Commented May 24, 2021 at 9:09
  • 2
    @Zoe You understood me correctly. It is my brain that is at fault here ;) It is Monday...
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 9:12
  • 9
    @Braiam Not all posts can be edited. Not all posts are worth editing. Not all duplicates are good duplicates. Sadly, we have to go nuclear, because there is way too many users that are happier to answer n-th obvious duplicate rather than close the post. And there is too many such no effort posts asked. Sadly, the only way to prevent (or at least try to prevent) this is to go nuclear.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 11:54
  • 2
    @Braiam I was directly answering to your "Why isn't editing an option". Editing is always an option, but editing is not a guarantee that post can be saved. If you are referring to "why my answer does not say anything about editing and salvaging posts" that is because focus of this proposal is not about salvaging or not, it is about ending wars between same users. For everything else there is a Meta, like suggested in Baum's answer
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 12:44
  • 9
    Just to be clear, there would be a warning on the first incident before any suspensions would be issued. Things have to be pretty egregious in a lot of instances to get a suspension out of the gate.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 12:45
  • 1
    @Braiam Agreed. What are we exactly arguing here? I have the felling that we are not far apart.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 12:55
  • 3
    @Braiam Limit only individual users. Look at the image in this proposal, it is ridiculous that same people can cast any number of delete or undelete votes on the same question. Throwing editing into the picture does not help, because any kind of edit would allow casting votes again. It is easier to make clean cut, and prevent double casting than forcing moderators to "judge" whether edit was malicious in sense that it was only done to enable voting.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 13:31
  • 1
    Ah, I found the issue. For me the more ridiculous issue is that there's no edits there. Just deletion/undeletion. The other isn't such a worry to me.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 13:37
  • 6
    +1 for "it is possible that user votes for the same question twice without even realizing". Definitely happens with some time (months+) between the votes.
    – Bergi
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 14:07
  • 9
    To double up on what Machavity has already stated: suspensions are an exception, warnings are the default. Out of our arsenal of standard mod messages, only “destruction of useful content” and “sock puppets” come with the “suspend” option enabled by default; the “destruction” option sets the duration to one day as a quick method to stop self-vandalising sprees in their tracks. And for first-time mild sock voting cases we often don’t suspend either. We much rather talk than lock you out!
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 15:21
  • 4
    @Braiam specifically referencing the linked regex war, editing is a useless pursuit as means to quelling the war. Even if the question and the answer were "perfected", then they still would have better placed in the canonical in the first place. IOW, the page only would have become more aligned as a duplicate. We need better eggs in fewer baskets. This initiative seems like a good idea to me -- thorns in the community become less thorny. Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:54
  • 4
    @mickmackusa yes, but this rule would be about everyone, not just the regex group. The regex group needs suspension. Just suspend them for low quality contributions.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:23
  • 4
    I think this is a pretty solid approach. The baked-in solution is trivial, but we avoided it for years because it's hard to predict unintended consequences; changing the rules of the system leaves no room for judgement, whereas moderators can and do use their discretion. If this ends up becoming a burden, or is unevenly applied... THEN baking it in would make sense.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 27, 2021 at 3:12
18
votes

I think that the way proposed here would take too much effort for two dozens moderators to control 23,000 (that's over twenty thousands) 10K users. I even suspect that it isn't possible at all.

Please take into account that we're talking about 10K users, who aren't like your typical ignorant homework cheater with their handful sock puppets who can be dealt with using same simplest measures in hundreds or thousands a day.

Typical 10K user is smart, experienced and passionate. Manual, hand-picked and personalised measures to control tens thousands of them, frankly, feel like trying to control nuclear core in Chernobyl by peeing at it.


The only way that would work is I believe to have the system automatically prevent repeating un/delete votes, or maybe force a solid cool-off delay between these. (Preferably this would be a site-specific configuration setting - just to make sure that such a change wouldn't have negative impact on one of 170+ other smaller sites in the SE network.)

30
  • 7
    side note to preemptively answer those who will say that solution is to get more moderators. No, I am not willing to participate in elections for 200 more candidates. Nor I am willing to extend my trust and share my PII with few hundreds more users
    – gnat
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:27
  • 1
    Fully agree that a software enforcement would be less work but I wonder if maybe SEDE could come to the help. If the delete votes are stored somewhere, maybe a script can detect multiple votings and then a suspension for second time offenders could be enough to effectively suppress multiple votings. That might actually work or at least I would be willing to try it. Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:32
  • 22
    Note that of that 23,000 10k users, a good portion of them do not know about moderation tools, do not use them, or just want to get rep. There are 10k users who do the opposite of moderation, and I feel they have a significant role in these battles. While 10k are a little more mature than your typical user, a lot of them shouldn't even have the deletion privilege in the first place.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:35
  • 2
    @10Rep yeah and I can imagine 10-20 (30... 40...) of them getting unexpectedly suspended and after that, coming to meta to complain. Last time I observed something like that was Black Saturday in 2012 when developers did something er... sensitive to reputation gained in deleted posts and this was quite a nightmare
    – gnat
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:43
  • 3
    1) I really don't think this is a problem perpetuated by a significant number of 10k users. I can't say exactly how many of course, but I suspect this number to be in the low double digits. 2) You mentioned "unexpectedly suspended" (albeit in a comment), and I don't think that will be an issue. Multiple mods have stressed that warnings will be given first, and that the policy will be made clear to any user before suspensions. And I believe them completely, if for no other reason than the fact that 10k users are ... considerably harder to ignore when they feel wronged.
    – cigien
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:15
  • 1
    @cigien we're talking about rather obscure meta rule which additionally contradicts the way how system is designed now. This means, in order to have it enforced fairly, moderators would have to properly communicate it to folks who break it (suspending without prior communication honestly would feel to me even worse than un/delete wars). And this cumbersome communication should be permanently maintained to accommodate all 10Kers who are new or who simply aren't yet aware of it - as if moderators don't have better things to do...
    – gnat
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:33
  • 1
    ...and even with all of that, even assuming proper communication - permanently suspending 10K users, "low double digits" (a week? a month? a year?) means making them unhappy anyway - and this kind of thing towards volunteers who are proven to provide main thing at the site - high quality useful content - just doesn't feel right, no matter how you twist it
    – gnat
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:33
  • 1
    @cigien you don't see (neither moderators who proposed this) how this is snowballing into more and more work, don't you. To prove knowing violation of the rules, you have to be prepared to address reasonably legitimate complaints like, "oh I forgot about warning that was sent to me two years ago", or "sorry, I thought it was my first un/delete vote on this question / I missed my prior vote in the lengthy timeline" - and without properly addressing these, suspension would feel unfair...
    – gnat
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:00
  • 1
    Some mods have colder pee versus other mods, if you get my meaning. Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:57
  • 1
    @mickmackusa when discussing group of tens thousands users I would prefer to reason based on something more fundamental and reliable than refering to subjective feelings of who's involved and how it went in last 3 months. Especially since as discussed above, establishing and enforcing proposed rule can naturally lead to even more un/delete wars than before (as a matter of retailation and staying formally compliant with that rule)
    – gnat
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 22:11
  • 2
    @gnat so, are you saying that you would upvote my request for data? :)
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 22:18
  • 2
    I suspect that number of users engaged in delete/undelete wars is rather small. If you remove ability for same users to engage multiple times, at some point question will stay either deleted or undeleted. And mods can always step in and make final judgement if things get out of hand regardless of the new rule.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 6:22
  • 3
    23,000 users aren't causing problems, only a few (probably one or two dozen).
    – TylerH
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 18:50
  • 1
    @TylerH twenty thousands users may not cause problems now, but belief that it will always be this way is quite risky one. There is no way to tell if enough of them (yeah, "probably one or two dozen") will decide to join the crusade next day, and next week, and next month etc. There is no way to tell how many of them "inspired" by this featured meta post will eventually decide to start playing un/delete wars (Streisand effect). My concern is that proposed approach looks really unreliable in the long term given how many active users can be potentially involved
    – gnat
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 19:01
  • 1
    @gnat whether it will always be 'this way' or not is irrelevant (and not something I weighed in on). There is a problem now and a proposed solution for handling it now, as well as an effort underway to handle it, at scale, in the long term via a system feature.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 19:14
16
votes

I like the "agile" approach here: it allows the rule and its application to grow, to evolve nuance over time as the situation warrants.

As you noted, this has remained unrestricted for years simply because abuse wasn't a big problem. In general, that's how it should work: don't implement rules that aren't needed, as they just add cognitive overhead (and sometimes processing overhead as well).

This approach, if applied judiciously, should serve to educate instead of restrict. And if it turns out that multiple votes are sometimes advantageous, I hope that y'all will be willing to discuss those scenarios and modify this rule as-needed to allow them while still discouraging abuse.

2
  • When you say multiple votes you mean that if 6 users vote to delete something and the same 3 vote to undelete, it should stay deleted? Because if you are saying that we need more users to (un)delete vote things, that seems like a step backwards (make tools easier to use and all that).
    – Braiam
    Commented May 27, 2021 at 10:28
  • 3
    The proposed rule is one delete, one undelete, per person. Which is a good place to start. But... There are almost certainly situations where that'll be too simple: votes cleared via reopening, nullified by moderator action (delete, undelete / undelete, delete), etc. Since there's no real "result" stored for delete votes, these are situations where moderators have a real edge over the system: they can readily look at the surrounding context.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 27, 2021 at 13:40
14
votes

The image seems like a del-undel war but when checking the time, both actions are not an immediate response. For me, it looks like, 3 people deleted the post. 3 other people undeleted it. The people who deleted it early came across it and deleted it again (may be without checking revision history).

enter image description here

Even if that's the case, this doesn't look good. Delete/ Undelete votes may be limited to 1 per person per post. But I'd like to see it as a limitation implemented by Stack Exchange rather than a moderator imposed one as said by Dalija Prasnikar


Another suggestion is, since one can't see the delete/undelete activity of a post without checking revision history, show a warning in the confirm dialogue, like below

For deletion (If the person already deleted it in the past).

enter image description here

For undeletion (If the person already undeleted it in the past).

enter image description here

9
  • 16
    The proposal in this question is for moderators to implement in advance of any implementation by SE. The majority of people involved would prefer a SE system level solution. When, or even if, that happens is unclear. Such feature requests typically take significant amounts of time prior to the change being in the system. Arguing that you'd rather see it implemented by SE appears to be missing the point of this discussion, unless you're saying "I want nothing implemented by moderators, but would accept such a limitation on delete/undelete votes being implemented by the system."
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 18:45
  • 2
    @Makyen I agree with your point that SE may take 6-8 weeks to implement this. But the proposal made by Machavity requires every voter to check revision history of every post they're going to cast a vote (undelete/ delete) on since there's no way to see deletion history in the question page. That feels like redundant and not all privileged users are active on meta or don't visit meta at all. So how are you going to inform all of them about such a rule?
    – Sagar V
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 18:54
  • 2
    it is so incredibly unlikely that someone would accidentally vote to delete or undelete the same post, 4+ times, without knowing that they had done so previously, that i'd be willing to live with the fact that sometimes it may occur accidentally. especially considering it's not a instant ban, but instead a moderator controlled rule that starts with a warning
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:00
  • 3
    I expect that most such occurrences will come to the attention of moderators via flags (probably from other involved users). As has been said all along, the response from moderators to the first instance of someone re-casting a vote would be to provide a warning. If the user wasn't aware of the rule/issue prior to the warning, then they would be aware of it after receiving the warning.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:00
  • @Makyen that'll do the job. I think a meta post alone won't help but adding it to the code of conduct or appropriate page will be a good idea. Otherwise you may have to face responses like, I can't find it in the coc/ usage policy or I only follow rules imposed by SE, from people.
    – Sagar V
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:09
  • @SagarV You keep going back to wanting to get changes from SE (now in the CoC or other "appropriate page", which are nearly all only editable by SE staff). I'm not sure how much more clear people can be about this proposal being implemented without being predicated on any changes by SE. If we could get quick changes from SE, then this proposal wouldn't exist.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:15
  • @Makyen I read somewhere in past that mods can edit some pages.
    – Sagar V
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:19
  • 1
    @SagarV We can edit a very small number of pages in the Help Center. Most notable among those (actually, the only public page I can think of off the top of my head) is the on-topic page.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:26
  • Ah! Didn't know that.
    – Sagar V
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:30
11
votes

Will this rule apply where one delete vote was cast through post review (such as Low Quality Posts)?

Will this rule apply to recommend deletion votes cast through similar post review?

1
10
votes

I completely understand your policy proposal and support the feature request for the software to limit delete and undelete votes to once per post. I also see that delete/undelete wars are an issue, and do support enacting an interim policy to stop them.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to label voting to delete/undelete more than once on a given post as abuse. I'd only do so if it escalated into a true war. This was sort of pointed out in Sagar V's answer, but a user may vote to delete something that later gets undeleted, later come across the now non-deleted post again, forget that they previously voted to delete and/or think that their previous vote didn't go through for some reason, and vote again. In such cases, the user isn't trying to abuse the system.

If such an interim policy is to be enacted, I'd make it so that it only applies if there was clear warring involved or users were clearly trying to abuse it knowingly. I'd prefer that the software enforce one of each vote per post, since that would make this a non-issue, but if it's a community policy, it shouldn't be as harsh.

1
  • 1
    While I support the sentiment behind this, I think trying to figure out where exactly the line is and making that consistent across all moderators such that flaggers can understand when and when not to flag is impossibly subjective. I think Dalija's proposal of a warning before any suspension addresses most of the issue with the policy being overly harsh.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 3:43
8
votes

I agree with the premise of this proposal, and think the premise is all that should be banned. Namely, delete, undelete wars. They should already have been banned, just like edit wars. Any time where two groups of users are hammering away at something, then moderation needs to step in and calmly explain that someone else needs a turn with the ball or it is being taken away.

Maybe we can all just agree here that if you continuously vote to delete or undelete on a post solely to undo someone else's delete or undelete vote, then you may be subject to moderator intervention depending on the circumstances.

If there needs to be consensus for content retention or removal, meta is the place to determine that. Write up a discussion and figure it out as a group.

1
  • "solely to undo someone else's delete or undelete vote" oh, the good old I upvote this post because someone else downvoted it. We evaluate content people! Would nobody defend it?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 9:57
5
votes

Like the majority of other answerers, I also fully support this new rule. However, I am unhappy and very disappointed that it has become necessary.

The reasons given previously on Meta.SE, for not having a system-imposed, "one-vote-per-post-per-person" rule for delete/undelete votes should be sufficient: i.e. because that voting privilege is reserved for 'trusted' users, of which there are a relatively low number; and one would like to think that such users can behave in a mature and decent manner. But it has become apparent that there are groups of such high-rep users who do not (or cannot?) behave appropriately, according to their earned privileges.

Now, while this new rule (if enforced) will likely reduce the frequency of these ugly delete/undelete wars, it is (IMHO) unlikely to prevent them completely – because it may just seed the creation of larger groups of delete/undelete voters.

A far better solution would be to address the cause of these voting wars, which Machavity has identified in his original post:

It's part of a larger issue of duplicate disputes …

This Q/A thread is not really the place to go into a more protracted discussion of that issue, but there are a few points that I would like to make in summary:

  • It is possible that these delete votes are being cast because of the limitation of one close/reopen vote per post. That is, users are deleting in order to hinder subsequent reopening by a Gold Tag Badge holder.
  • Or, maybe, questions are being deleted that, based on their content alone, should not be, simply to remove any reputation gained by others who have answered what the close-voter considered a duplicate.
  • Although (again, as Machavity has already mentioned) we cannot expect our diamond moderators to act as arbitrators in every duplicate dispute that comes along, maybe they can start taking note of the 'usual suspects' in such cases and offering appropriate advice via moderator messages.
  • Alternatively (to the previous point), if a duplicate dispute turns up here on Meta and it becomes obvious that a Gold Tag Badge holder has answered an (obvious) duplicate, maybe that answer should be moderator deleted (reputation lost) and the the question locked (closed).
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    "one would like to think that such users can behave in a mature and decent manner" *cries a lot*
    – E_net4
    Commented May 27, 2021 at 12:33
  • 5
    As an alternative take, I would argue that "trusted users" are the ones most likely to have strong opinions on curation in general, and specifically on whether post X should be deleted or undeleted. If you've got strong convictions, wishy-washy deletion criteria, and a system that doesn't stop you from (un)delVoting multiple times... Frankly, deletion wars sound like an inevitable outcome once you have a wide enough pool of such users.
    – zcoop98
    Commented May 27, 2021 at 16:39
3
votes

Will delete votes that were cleared after the question was reopened still count toward the policy?

If a closed question with delete votes gets reopened, any pending delete votes on it will be cleared. The current rule proposal as currently worded doesn't allow recasting a delete vote in case the question is reopened, clearing the delete vote, and re-closed.

In my opinion, it's a better idea to not have such delete votes count toward the rule, because:

  • Such votes don't leave a trace in the post history, as shown to normal users, which makes it difficult to enforce if cases have to be brought up to mods by users (maybe mods can see them, but I don't know)
  • Such votes don't contribute toward delete/undelete wars, which is what this rule is trying to prevent. The only way this would result in a war is if the same users vote to reopen multiple times to clear out the pending delete votes, which is already prevented anyway.
  • The system does allow re-voting to close/reopen in case one's prior vote didn't result in closure or reopening (due to aging); a similar thing should be allowed for delete votes that didn't result in deletion (due to the question being reopened).
  • I can see valid, non-abusive cases where one should be able to re-vote for deletion in case their prior vote was cleared as a result of reopening. For example, if a question was reopened incorrectly and then re-closed correctly, or if it was reopened and re-closed for a different close reason, it doesn't mean that the prior vote to delete is invalid.

Were these cases considered when writing the policy, and if so, why was it still decided to have such votes count? How will it be enforced if so? If it wasn't, and it's unintentional, can an exemption that delete votes that were cleared as a result of question reopening do not count toward the policy please be added?

4
  • Moderators would not have access to any record (I don't know if any record is kept at all, actually) of canceled delete votes in this case, so I would not expect them to count. To wit, we have a similar rule in SOCVR that precludes close-vote requests on posts where you've successfully closed the post... unsuccessful attempts where your vote aged away don't count.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 31, 2021 at 14:37
  • While mods can see cast delete votes, we're also not going to be going around looking for these votes either. Since normal user cannot see who cast a given delete vote until it is successful, nobody will be able to flag them either. I think the issue is moot as a result.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 31, 2021 at 19:08
  • @Machavity Users can see delete votes that they've cast on their own, even if they've been cleared, through the "Votes" tab on their own user profile. It's not a moot point, since a user can wonder whether they're allowed to recast if their history shows them as having cast a prior vote, even if it didn't result in deletion. Even if cases of it cannot be found/reported by others, it would be nice to still have this clarified in the written policy.
    – gparyani
    Commented May 31, 2021 at 19:25
  • This has been edited in (h/t Makyen)
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 1, 2021 at 2:48
0
votes

I understand the intent behind the rule and the goal for the rule; but this is why we have elected moderators. Having a one-size fits all rule is heavy-handed, and this should be resolved through the existing means we have.

No one should have adverse action taken against them for using the affordances of the site. The site should be fixed if the affordances have bad effects.

I will submit that Stack Overflow should handle this through software; but until they do, Elected Moderators are the 'human exception handler' whose job it is to handle these issues.

Those, as they say, are the breaks.

I'm not an elected moderator, so I can't tell you what to do here; but I can say that if I were an elected moderator, this is how I would handle it:

Until we have software that can moderate this; it's up to our community elected moderators to handle these situations. No one is being helped by moderators standing on the sidelines for these issues.

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  • 3
    Moderators are not "standing in the sidelines". They are standing in front of the issue, setting up rules and preparing to enforce them.
    – yivi
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:40
  • 6
    "good content" that has been repeated 10k times doesn't need to be preserved by default.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:40
  • 3
    @kevinB Our long standing policies on Duplicates are to keep them around. meta.stackexchange.com/a/10844/16587 Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:53
  • 5
    “Long-standing standards” shouldn’t be considered “one size fits all” rules.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:56
  • 2
    @KevinB If you read the policy you will understand it isn't one size fits all. Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:56
  • 5
    "In general" does not mean "the policy is to keep them around". That leaves a lot of leeway for trusted users to use their delete votes as they see fit. The vast majority of curation is performed by non-moderators, and that includes deleting questions. You seen to assume that users that interpret the policy differently than you have not read the policy. That's naive, at best.
    – yivi
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:58
  • 1
    "if they are word-for-word copies or that are so poorly written that they are not useful may be deleted by users with sufficient privilege". Most duplicates fall in this category.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 16:58
  • 1
    @Braiam I think that's asking the wrong question. "Does having this duplicate around help people from google find their answer?" That's ultimately what the value of the site is -- can it help people coming from google. Commented May 26, 2021 at 17:06
  • 3
    Well, it makes the site better if it allows people looking for that question are able to find it. But if we already have several with the same keywords... does the extra N questions help? As someone that mainly search questions, the answer is "no". I find too many unrelated questions when I hit something particularly simple.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 17:08
  • 1
    @Braiam Making sure duplicates are correctly linked is important. If they're not, that's a separate issue. (all duplicates should be 1 degree away from the canonical dupe. There shouldn't be 'chain' duplicates). Commented May 26, 2021 at 17:10
  • 2
    The argument seems to be that the current moderator team is inordinately burdened by handling this kind of problem currently by some users. So "handle exceptions" may sound good, but allegedly doesn't scale here. My personal recommendation might be to just suspend the users causing the problem as I consider the behavior this new policy bans to be abuse even without said policy... but I would also consider the policy as it is currently planned to be an adequate solution, too, and with the benefit of avoiding any accusations of favoritism.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 17:21
  • 5
    The existing policy, as enforced by you, has always been if it’s not negatively scored it stays. I understand the benefits of having such a simple policy in that it elevates your actions above liability, however it results in such situations as the very one your answer linked to was posted on. The question is clickbait and the answer is one sided. No one is allowed to dispute it, so we’re left with a one sided q&a pair that doesn’t belong here in the first place existing for eternity, potentially presenting a false narrative that everyone agrees with it. That isn’t good content.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 17:43
  • 4
    In other words, when you say "good content shouldn't be deleted", what you're actually saying is "popular content shouldn't be deleted." ... regardless of how many people with delete privileges decide otherwise.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 18:02
  • 2
    @GeorgeStocker I grant you your prior experience; I think the argument is that the current mod team considers it a much more frequent issue than it was when you were a moderator... at least in a particular subgroup of users/tag on the site.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 18:36
  • 2
    @tylerh granted. It was “once every few months” previously. Have no way of knowing what it is now. The deletionists seem to have a new fire in their bellies, and likely a lot more time on their hands than the rest of us; if the pace of deletions has quickened. Commented May 26, 2021 at 18:38
0
votes

I fully support this rule, and it's awesome that it's now in action.

But let's think of the following example:

I am user x, and I and a few other users vote to delete a post. Then some users successfully undelete the post, and I feel that the post should stay deleted. So I cast my delete vote, and it successfully gets deleted again.

Then, a user moderator flags explaining that I broke the rules. What do the mods punish me with? Is it a straight-up suspension, or is it a warning-based system? In my opinion, if we're going to enforce a rule without the help of the system we need to have an official process for "punishing".

Have the moderator team thought of an official process? If not, here is what I suggest:

  1. A mod message is sent, explaining the new rule. This is a warning, and most 10kers would probably stop here.

  2. A mod message is sent again, this time explaining that if the rule is broken again, they will be suspended. Again, lots of people would stop here.

And after that, suspensions of increasing time length.

Also, how will the moderator team keep track of how many times a user has broken this rule? I understand if that's information that won't be revealed publicly, but I thought it was worth asking.

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    The way this happens is we would mod message the user and explain the rules. No suspensions, just a note that this isn't allowed. In most cases the users stops (we do this a lot for incidental rule infractions). If the user does the same thing again, that message is stored in an annotation in the user's account and it's possible (even likely) that a suspension would follow. Annotations aren't exactly secret, but only a diamond user can see them.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 21:32
  • @Machavity Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 21:36
  • 1
    What do the mods punish me with? I think we still have a giant S lying around.
    – rene
    Commented May 27, 2021 at 6:15
  • @rene I think we would need nine of them...
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 27, 2021 at 13:03
0
votes

I'm still a little unsure about one edge case...

  1. Let's say I have > 10K reputation and I write a question.

  2. The question is deleted by 3 x 10K voters.

  3. I and two other 10K voters vote to undelete.

  4. The question is deleted again by 3 different 10K voters.

Nothing against the rules so far but, can I now vote to undelete a second time?

Part of the rule says

This rule does not apply to the post author deleting or undeleting their own post.

But I can't undelete the post on my own, I need others. Can I repeatedly cast undelete votes so that undeletion only requires two other voters instead of three?

Should the rule be clearer, that you can only vote to undelete a post more than once if you were the one that deleted it? Or is this OK and when I see this happening I should just let it go and not flag it?

3
  • I thought about this and I think the rule can stand as-is. While it does make sense to carve a 10k exception out, the larger principle is that if your post was deleted by other users, it means they thought something was wrong. We want users to fix what's wrong in their posts, and discouraging them from voting to undelete would be to discourage fixing posts. Mind you, the more they do this, the harder it will be because you still need two undelete voters who have not voted previously. I see that as a tradeoff for the exception.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 31, 2021 at 12:38
  • @Machavity the particular case that caught my eye has had no editing by the OP (or anyone else). I do see what you mean about allowing for posts to be fixed though. If we demanded an edit before repeating an undelete vote then we'd a) make the rules even more complicated and b) encourage trivial/meaningless edits. Commented Jul 31, 2021 at 14:10
  • I have a feeling the mods would look less kindly on repeated undelete attempts by OP if they have not made any changes to the post.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 31, 2021 at 22:37
0
votes

Should undeleting questions re-deleted by the Roomba still count toward this rule?

One thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of the answers or comments here is questions that were deleted by the Community ♦ user for inactivity and then undeleted by members of the community. (This has been possible since 2014.)

Most such cases are brought to the community's attention through meta posts here, and then undeleted by members of the community once the consensus is that the post should be undeleted (most of the time, the author has edited it to be better quality). However, if the post still meets the deletion criteria by the time the script runs (every week for most scripts except for RemoveAbandonedClosed which is every day), it will be re-deleted automatically. Given that, I do see a legitimate case for the same users coming by and undeleting such a post (that was deleted by the Roomba, undeleted by the community, and re-deleted by the Roomba) again:

  • First of all, if the timing of the undeletion was right before the time the script runs, it won't have a chance to receive upvotes that will stop it from being automatically deleted. This is especially true for RemoveAbandonedClosed deletions as that script runs every day, but is also true for other types of automatic deletions if the undeletion took place in the hours before the weekly script runs.

  • Second of all, it allows a privilege escalation: a single downvote can have the same weight as three highly-privileged users voting to delete (if it pushes the question over a threshold), and effectively allows the voter to ensure that the post remains deleted even after highly-privileged users come by and undelete it. In other words, it's not much different technically from the same voter coming by and re-deleting the post after others have undeleted it - which bypasses the very rule that this post discusses! (This is a real scenario: there was one user on the network caught using a bot to downvote posts to push them toward the Roomba.)

In my mind, if the Community ♦ user re-deletes a post that was undeleted by the community, I think it's simply circuitous to have to find other users to undelete it, since the users who undeleted originally are (generally) simply enacting community consensus (if it was brought up on meta first). Only if they're undeleting after several automatic re-deletes without any attempt from the author's part to improve the question and try and have it upvoted is it an issue.

What do you think of a limited exception to allow users to vote to undelete again if they initially undeleted a question deleted by Community ♦ and Community ♦ deleted it again, so long as it's not repeated?

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  • 2
    I mean, given that this process is handled entirely by moderators, I'd expect our exception handlers to be able to recognize this exception on the spot, without need for it being in the rulebook, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That said, this is a good thing to bring up in the discussion related to making this rule (one delete/undelete per post) implemented by the site itself, as if the site implemented this rule similar to close votes, this problem would arise.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 20, 2021 at 20:05
  • 1
    @KevinB If it later becomes a system rule, I highly suspect that the devs will copy the rule straight from the existing community rule. Plus, dev changes are hard to get implemented after the fact.
    – gparyani
    Commented Aug 20, 2021 at 20:09
  • 2
    Undeleters can simply use their upvotes and reopen votes to render the question ineligible for automatic deletion after undeleting it. I don't see any reason to make an exception for cases where roomba is involved. Commented Aug 21, 2021 at 4:20
  • @oguzismail Open questions can be Roomba'd too. Plus, what about questions that were heavily downvoted due to their prior content (low-quality content that was improved by the author while it was in a deleted state)?
    – gparyani
    Commented Aug 21, 2021 at 4:44
  • Open questions can be voted on and answered. And there are several ways to bring attention to a question that has been improved since its deletion after undeleting it (bounties, chat rooms, social media, meta...) If nothing works and you can't salvage a question, you can still re-post it yourself. Commented Aug 21, 2021 at 5:24
  • @oguzismail A question may not receive much engagement for many reasons, including simply being an obscure case, as well as other reasons. Also, reposting wipes away the prior history of the question, including attributions for edits and reputation/ownership.
    – gparyani
    Commented Aug 21, 2021 at 5:26
  • A question that doesn't receive enough attention to prevent it from being deleted by roomba despite all the efforts of users interested in it simply does not get to stay. The history of a question does not make it more/less valuable, and is irrelevant. Commented Aug 21, 2021 at 5:33
  • What if the one-vote-per-post rule applied to the Roomba script as well? Then this couldn't become an issue.
    – user000001
    Commented Aug 21, 2021 at 11:20
  • @user000001 There is a feature request on the global meta to that end. I'm personally not in favor of exactly that; if the question isn't improved sufficiently enough, it should still be re-deleted, but not in the current manner. My preferred solution is to "reset the clock" if a Roomba-deleted question is undeleted: if it was deleted for, e.g., RemoveDeadQuestions, it should have another 30 days to attract upvotes before it's deleted again, etc.
    – gparyani
    Commented Aug 21, 2021 at 17:34
  • If a question is deleted, a user can cast an undelete vote on it--as part of a successful undeletion-- one time. If you think a question is worth undeleting, then you should also think it is worth either upvoting, reopening, and/or answering (or locking if it's of historical value). Any of these would serve as an appropriate-"strength" action by a single user (or even three users, if all three take such actions) as an attempt to salvage a question. If the question still Roombas again after your successful undeletion, then sorry, the community/system has deemed it was still not worth saving.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 23, 2021 at 20:53
  • @TylerH Is that still true if the final undelete vote happens to get cast just one hour before the script is scheduled to run? Also, really only the final voter can cast an upvote immediately; the first two voters have to keep waiting as no user can upvote a deleted post.
    – gparyani
    Commented Aug 23, 2021 at 20:58
  • I would say yes. Because you wouldn't cast the last undelete vote and not immediately also do one of the other actions (edit, reopen vote, answer) also. Keep in mind the barrier for Roomba is already high, so the threshold for reverting Roomba should also be high.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 23, 2021 at 21:25
  • @TylerH That's true. I still think that granting limited exceptions to the rule for edge cases (where, e.g., the question was re-deleted before it could gain upvotes, while someone was in the process of writing an answer or editing it, or while it was undergoing reopen review) is a good idea, rather than enforcing it as a hard rule for every single case. The answer body asks for exactly that - limited exceptions - rather than a full exception.
    – gparyani
    Commented Aug 23, 2021 at 21:44
  • @gparyani Sure, I get you. Personally I think a written exception is unneeded; this is one of those grey areas/edge cases that elected moderators are explicitly positioned to serve in their capacity as "exception handlers". So I agree with Kevin B's comment above, in short.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 23, 2021 at 22:03
  • 2
    @gparyani They should be warned, yes. I don't think an exception is warranted here. You get one undelete. I don't see that Community changes that
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Aug 24, 2021 at 12:30
-5
votes

I oppose this at the moment because I haven't seen strong evidence that this will be very useful.

I'm seeing a single example of a delete-undelete chain (edit: Commenters link to additional examples, need to look into those) without knowing whether the post had changed between these actions, or whether there was discussion of the matter in chat or on the meta site.

Why not think up some way to facilitate an understanding among the "belligerent parties"? What about trying a more gradual solution, like a cool-off for delete/undelete, or gradually increasing a reputation threshold / tag-specific reputation threshold for allowing additional delete/undelete votes?

Finally, when a deletion is hotly debated, I would expect a default of non-deletion, rather than a half+epsilon majoritarian decision process.

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  • 6
    There have been at least three other instances of such delete wars broadly discussed here on meta since start of the year. In all those cases both sides had arguments to support their action and no consensus has ever been reached.
    – BDL
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 10:11
  • @BDL: 1. So, 4 cases per year? Not sure this merits such a curtailing of closure rights. 2. If no side convinced each other, then probably the question should not be deleted. Although it does make me think of whether the belligerents had sufficient "heft" for me to reach such a conclusion. 3. How about something less drastic, e.g. gradually increasing the minimum necessary reputation for successive closures/reopens?
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 10:15
  • 5
    I didn't say 4 per year, I said: 4 which have been broadly discussed on meta in 5 month. There have been ~10 more I noticed on the main site without being discussed on meta and I'm not even following the worst tags in that regard. I try to dig up at least some of the old posts, but might take some time to find them
    – BDL
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 10:16
  • 1
    There are more here. See other deleted answer too. Commented May 25, 2021 at 10:27
  • @BDL: Ok. Will edit my post. But - the OP should have linked to those.
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 10:36
  • @einpoklum: I only found this. It's kind of hard to search for deleted posts :(. Btw: The question already links to a post discussing several delete wars (the same link oguz ismail added here). Unfortunately, the lists are in the deleted answers, but you are >10k, so you can read them anyway.
    – BDL
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 11:07
  • Regarding the new propsal for a gradual solution: Most of the current delete wars happen in the regex tag. On both sides people with gold badge in this tag are involved. Defaulting to non-deletion: According to the deleting group, this causes harm to SO because it clutters the side with low quality noise. All of this has been discussed in the linked questions, for example, in the answer by Machavity which explains why non of the current moderator actions really works.
    – BDL
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 11:38
  • @BDL: Regarding the regex tag: Maybe it's a social rather than a technical problem then? Perhaps people should talk to those deleter users? 2. It's not low-quality noise, because important users find it useful to have. 3. The answer by Machavity only details some possible actions, and doesn't argue that auto-flagging won't work, only that it doesn't exist right now.
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 11:55
  • 2
    For some reason, important users in question find a duplicate useful to have only if they posted an answer to it. We don't have such problems with other golden badge holders, only a small group exhibits this behavior. They don't have strong counter-arguments against deletion either. Commented May 25, 2021 at 12:01
  • @oguzismail: Ah... so that's what we're talking about here :-) Is that the case in most/all of the examples people are referring to? Then - maybe we should restrict repeat undelete privileges to answer authors for that post?
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 12:17
  • Unfortunately, it is. Restriction, mass suspension, whatever it takes. I'm all for it. Commented May 25, 2021 at 12:22
  • 8
    @einpoklum I'm not going to link to all the instances I know of because I'm already putting an enormous spotlight on the folks in the most recent dust-up (and believe me, they've made known their displeasure). More importantly, giving Meta a list of places where this has happened would be to invite more people to participate in the problem I am trying to help solve. That makes no sense.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 12:22
  • 4
    @Machavity: Fair enough, but my impression is now even stronger that an overly broad and strong measure is being proposed to handle a more limited problem.
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 12:49
-7
votes

I disagree because I'd like an exception: If the post was significantly edited since.

7
  • 6
    On #1, delete/undelete votes don't expire.
    – duplode
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:14
  • 1
    Not sure what editing the question would buy us. If people still vote to delete it, there's still some problem with it.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:50
  • 2
    @Makoto: well if it was of questionable quality, I voted to delete it, it gets deleted, and later undeleted, and it gets edited to spam I want to vote to delete again
    – Joshua
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:52
  • 1
    I feel like there's a gap there. This is borne out of a relatively unrealistic flow in that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a post to qualify for deletion, be edited, be un deleted, and then get edited to trash. Most content that is deleted stays deleted.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:55
  • 1
    @Makoto: Ah the unfortunate consequence of proposing a ban for not obviously bad behavior is it has corner cases. Someone's going to get burned for no good reason every once in awhile.
    – Joshua
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:58
  • 6
    again, this is a moderator controlled process, they are exception handlers, they'll be able to recognize corner cases and if they misstep, there's a path to calling attention to it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:10
  • 1
    @KevinB: Sounds very good but I've heard it before. They said that blocking people where banned within the previous year was subject to a manual review process, then the existing site moderators noticed after a user won the election that he had been previously banned (sorry I can't find the link anymore) and was denied his position. The previously received ban was apparently questionable but that didn't matter.
    – Joshua
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 23:33
-11
votes

Maybe this is easier?

Any deletion of a post closed as a duplicate is flagged as potentially abusive.

My gut tells me that the root of this is that there is a crusade against duplicate posts and whether or not they should be visible on the site. Deleting them out of hand (that is to say, within less than a week of it being closed) explicitly goes against the advice or caution given for the privilege, and the fact that we're dealing with this seems like we should use this angle instead to control it.

This gives the moderators some clear backing and a clear path to go forward on.

  • You reinforce the message and policy that has already existed since time immemorial on content deletion.
  • You give Stack Exchange a chance (a chance) to deal with it at a higher level. Hey, they took time out to deal with community wikis; maybe they'll bother about this one?
  • The people who do abuse this start making themselves more and more visible, making it easier and easier to deal with them. On both sides.

It is the case that some valid deletions do happen with dupe-closed questions, but this does give the moderation team a chance to ask questions and gather data about how often this is being done. If it's being done a lot and it's not desirable then that's a good place to start hashing it out.

29
  • 14
    This might be easier, but it is also wrong. Most posts closed as duplicates aren't useful/needed, but an upvoted answer or accepted answer will stop them from being Roomba'd. If you want to suggest a minimum exposure time before using delete votes, sure, I might be for that, but outright banning of deleting closed posts of X closure type is just as heavy-handed as mod-locking a post as a form of dispute resolution.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:46
  • 12
    I agree not every dupe needs deletion (and there are some who are far too quick to pull that trigger). But the flipside is that we have a lot of folks who sail in with the same question that has already been answered multiple times. How many signposts do we need to keep? I'm remiss to say no duplicate can be deleted because sometimes there are folks who encounter a problem and immediately post without any effort at all to understand the problem first. We don't want SO to be a dumping ground for error messages
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:47
  • 13
    There are dupes which have been asked for the umpteenth time, which need to be deleted. If the deletion of those is marked as abuse, that's just making it harder for curators to... curate.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:47
  • 1
    @Machavity: Maybe then we use the "within a week" as a quantifier until that starts getting abused. I don't disagree that we should do something about all of the sign posts, but that's also something that needs to happen at a higher level of support.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:49
  • 4
    @KevinB: So I'm not keen on making that my concern then; if the company doesn't want to acknowledge it as a pain point, then I really don't want to fret over the things that I can't solve. This kind of out-of-hand rule seems like it's in line with what we can solve.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:56
  • 3
    @10Rep You're suppose to wait and see if the duplicates are useful. You can't predict the future, and that is why the guideline is to not delete them. And "Umpteenth" is way over 20 in my book. They don't work very well as signposts when they are gone.
    – Scratte
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 19:51
  • 6
    the roomba being useless in this scenario is why we're casting delete votes in the first place. The roomba can't determine what is and isn't a useful signpost.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:20
  • 2
  • 10
    What the hell? Why in the world would you want to forbid removing trash quickly?
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:25
  • 5
    @10Rep If there are "umpteen" duplicates, then I'd far rather people look to prune the old duplicates with very few views. Such old, unvisited duplicates have already demonstrated that they are not good signposts. A new duplicate has at least the possibility of being a good signpost. If the new question is a good signpost, or not, isn't really something we can know without giving the question time to be indexed and see if it's a question people find.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:26
  • 6
    @mickmackusa Duplicates are closed to drive information to be curated in a single post rather than have it scattered everywhere. The problem here is not closure. The problem here is people acting like spoiled children over their post being moderated. Frankly, we don't need people with that attitude on a site dedicated to building a high quality knowledge repository.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 23:20
  • 2
    I believe what you believe @jpmc26. It is just that the goals of SO are too muddied. Should I be answering a duplicate question that only has 2 other duplicates because it needs more signposts? That is prohibitively tedious to 1. search for duplicates, 2. assess the quality/relevance of duplicate candidates, 3. then count how many duplicates are appropriate, 4. decide whether I should answer the duplicate versus just closing the nth duplicate. In the meantime, other less careful users have already slapped a FGITW answer on the page. See how the game is not simply designed for quality? Commented May 24, 2021 at 23:54
  • 2
    RE: How many signposts do we need to keep? This particular example is much worse. Commented May 25, 2021 at 13:36
  • 4
    Often duplicates are not signposts to better content; they are interruptions that get in the way of better content in order to interject a poorer answer. If we really want to keep dupes as signposts, then we would delete the superfluous answers on them. But that would certainly be called a misuse of the delete privilege.
    – khelwood
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 21:13
  • 3
    @Makyen If I am advised that it is appropriate to delete-vote mediocre superfluous answers on dupes, and under what circumstances, I will happily do so; but we need some consensus and guidelines on that, or we'll just be opening the delete/undelete wars on a new front.
    – khelwood
    Commented May 26, 2021 at 0:46
-12
votes

I support this 100%. I'm disappointed that it's not going to be implemented as a system rule, but we all know that Stack Exchange Inc. doesn't care about making things easier for curators, so I understand why. Thanks mods, for taking on this extra work in lieu of SE Inc. actually doing their jobs.

However, I'd like to see it go even further: if you have posted an answer on a question, casting a reopen vote on said question is considered abusive as it's an obvious conflict of interest. This would prevent situations like the most recent one called out.

I'd additionally like to request that moderators investigate for signs of collusion around reopening and/or undeleting and/or upvoting of low-quality questions in the tag. I've seen the same names in multiple Meta questions around issues in this tag (including this one), and while I don't believe in coincidences, I do believe that rep-farming exists. While I have no issues with this behaviour per se, when it results in low-quality questions not being removed as they should be, it becomes an issue that concerns all curators, and especially the moderation team.

11
  • 10
    I'm disappointed that it's not going to be implemented as a system rule The system rule proposal isn't dead AFAIK. We're just to the point we need a rule to deal with what is currently happening. I look forward to a day when mods won't be needed to enforce this.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 14:58
  • 10
    I generally agree with the answer, "casting a reopen vote on said question is considered abusive" looks like a bad idea to me. A user who already posted an answer doesn't benefit much from reopening the question, do they? Unless I am missing something. If we assume good faith, there is a possibility (not a certainty) that the question was unjustly closed/deleted (although I do not believe it is a common case) in which case punishing just for casting a reopen vote seems like a bit of an overkill.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 15:07
  • 4
    @OlegValter Should the question be successfully reopened, all existing delete votes are cleared. So yes, there could be a personal motive behind the reopen vote, although I agree with the sentiment that considering this practice abusive in all cases is going a bit too far.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 15:15
  • 24
    Reopening a question because you, as an expert, disagree with the closure is not necessarily abusive. Only when this becomes a pattern, opening dupes to then add an answer identical to the former dupe target, is this an issue. Do that often enough and we will have a talk with such users.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 15:24
  • 1
    @SE_net4thedownvoter - thank you, I knew I was missing something about the reopening. That feature can be weaponized, true. I would amend the "considered abusive" to "raise an auto mod flag" (but, since it needs SE's involvement, it's unlikely to happen unless this is already the case) to investigate (as with edit rollbacks, for example) - this way, the "assume good faith" rule could be preserved and a potentially problematic behaviour addressed.
    – 0Valt
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 15:52
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters well, we have examples of this pattern, yet it seems that the ones taking the fire is not them.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:46
  • 3
    It's not abusive to think a closed question should be open/is on-topic; a blanket ban in these terms is wayyy too false-positive happy. I think mods can sniff out abusers of the process you're talking about (people answering nth dupes and voting to reopen then) without a blanket ban on reopen-voting where you're involved.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 17:48
  • 6
    "We all know that Stack Exchange Inc. doesn't care about making things easier for curators" - this is unnecessary, and constitutes an attack on all employees. Stack Exchange Inc is just a legal entity, and doesn't have feelings or thoughts at all - the software engineers and product owners etc at Stack Exchange Inc do, and are unlikely to be in universal agreement about everything. I should think that the folks tasked with UX changes at Stack Exchange definitely care helping curators (as would most of us, were we to work there).
    – halfer
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 18:24
  • @halfer The tour and UI around the site does little to inform new users that good content curation is a goal. It often takes years of experience and community-delivered grooming before a user realizes that answering duplicate/closable questions unnecessarily bloats the site and causes extra workload for other humans. Commented May 24, 2021 at 22:43
  • 4
    @mickmackusa: I'm on board with your statement. I just felt that the tenor of the remark I highlighted was an excessive generalisation, and struck me as less than constructive, given that SE engineers undoubtedly read our ramblings here. I wonder if there is a way in which we can communicate how practical things like UX can be improved without wearing down employee readers with what may seem like personal attacks.
    – halfer
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 22:54
  • 3
    I have been lucky in my career that I have not had to be polite or restrained to rude and entitled customers, for any extended period of time. This prompts me to wonder if SE employees have remarkable fortitude, day-in and day-out, given they must read what "we" apparently think about each and every engineer that works there.
    – halfer
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 22:56
-19
votes

This is ridiculous. Instead of just considering it "abusive," moderators should just step in as soon as delete/undelete war starts instead of letting it fester for days on end. Making a decision in controversial cases is a core moderator function. You should evaluate a post, determine if it's breaking any rules, determine how productive it is (as in whether it's just a dumpster fire best put out or whether it's mostly good content worth saving), and then put it in the appropriate state. (The appropriate state might be a heavy edit, closed but not deleted, or deleted. Just "open" is highly unlikely to be acceptable; the minimum would be a significant edit to clarify on the issues users perceive.) In other words, this happens because you're not doing your job. Your failure to act when you should does not constitute a reason to start punishing users for exercising their privileges.

10
  • 5
    Let's be realistic. Deleting questions closed as a duplicate is a long established practice that really does have some negative consequences. "Exercising your privilege" is reasonable up until the point that the exception handlers have to step in. And they have been required to step in often enough that this is the reason it's being proposed as their policy.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:28
  • 2
    The thing is there are a lot of wars like this. The mods are 24 people, and there are 1000 times as many users with the delete vote privilege. And just because someone has a privilege does not mean they should use it. The point here is that some people tend to abuse their privileges.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 20:58
  • @Makoto can you give me a TL;dr about those "negative consequences"?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:26
  • @Braiam: Is "more Twitter-driven development" laconic enough?
    – Makoto
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:28
  • @Makoto ok, you will have to do me a solid and connect the dots between "deleting questions that are duplicates" and "twitter driven development", because I really don't get it.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:31
  • 6
    @Braiam: User has dupe deleted. User is angy. User goes to rant on Twitter. User finds echo chamber of similarly angy users of Stack Overflow. Stack Exchange, in its infinite wisdom, ignores the discussions we have here on the Metas and rushes in to pacify those who are angy. This was a contrived instance of that, but it does happen.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:34
  • @Makoto ohh, that makes more sense, also, ewwwwww.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 21:38
  • 2
    @Makoto People becoming unjustly angry and SO appeasing them by attacking its users is not solved by acquiescence. That has the moral value of giving in to a 3 year old's temper tantrum. Doing more wrong things will not fix something being wrong to begin with. Frankly, we'd be better off forcing SO to collapse under the weight of such terrible behavior; at least then there would be an impetus for a replacement to form.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 23:23
  • 2
    I disagree with this answer because it fails to address that this has been and continues to be a tooling problem, which has nothing to do with "mod inaction". Mods don't have any non-nuclear tools in their arsenal to stop deletion wars. The proposal aims to help curb that. Even if you disagree that this is the way to go about solving it, the problem still remains unless you've got reasoning to the contrary.
    – zcoop98
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 14:28
  • 5
    @zcoop98 If a question is bad enough that people keep deleting it and editing it to deal with the problems causing them to do so is too hard, it should just be deleted. Salvageable content can be reproduced in a better question free of the problems. If people are deleting it for a clearly invalid reason, they can be warned/suspended/banned for that, no new rule required.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 25, 2021 at 22:11
-19
votes

The issue is questions getting deleted that should not be.

People can argue about where that line is, but that's the issue. This change won't fix that problem because whoever has the bigger group, will now always "win", regardless of what the "correct" thing to do in each situation is. The way to fix this is to get people who are over-deleting to chill, and to get people who are over-undeleting to chill. To do that, we should implement a delete ban:

  • If X questions that you voted to delete get undeleted, you're banned for Y time.
  • If X questions that you voted to undelete get deleted, you're banned for Y time.

With any luck, we would quickly get these 10 or so people that keep doing this banned pretty quickly, and hopefully, they will learn to chill out.

15
  • 2
    Wouldn't this scare off people from using their delete/undelete votes completely? If this were implemented, I would be concerned about casting those votes in case others come along and cast the opposite vote, and I get banned for doing what I think is the right thing. Also, logistically, I don't think mods can implement a "delete ban", i.e. they can't restrict specific uses of the site like that; they'd need to just suspend users entirely for a period.
    – cigien
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 2:43
  • 4
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding your answer, but you seem to be counting "disagree with other users' votes" as abuse. That just doesn't seem right to me. Disagreeing is fine IMO, and the OP's proposal only limits the extent to which this disagreement can be expressed. That seems much more reasonable, and enforceable, than your suggestion.
    – cigien
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 2:53
  • 1
    Your proposal may have merits. However, just like what I said to another user defending the other side, stating that the problem is with one side or the other is pretty much irrelevant here and comes off as ranty. Any solution to fix this problem should take into account that people make mistakes on both sides.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 2:55
  • 2
    I would suggest this as a [feature-request] on Meta.SE. I have a proposal myself. The catch here is we need a rule we can work with now because people are already flagging these in both directions.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:01
  • 1
    @StevenPenny You did so in your proposal, yes. That's why I said it may have merits. The remaining of your post, however, is mostly against "the delete crowd". Note that I don't really stand on one side or the other; so no, I'm not projecting. On another note, I have no idea why you rolled back my edit when it only fixed some typos!
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:02
  • 1
    @StevenPenny If you read my comments under the other answer, you'd know that I'm not biased toward either side. I even downvoted the other answer, but not yours because you provided a proposal that I think is worth discussing. But you can believe whatever you want to believe, of course :)
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:09
  • @41686d6564 if you are referring to my post, note: the deleting site did argue their case The other side... nothing.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:11
  • @Braiam Yes, I was referring to your answer. And like I said there, standing with one side with regards to a specific post (like in the post you just linked to) is perfectly fine. It's standing with one side overall is what I'm against. In my humble opinion, that can't produce any good outcome.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:14
  • @41686d6564 The "standing with one side overall" is a natural result when there's only one side that I can actually stand by, because the other doesn't argue their case, as you can see in this answer (and the other answer too).
    – Braiam
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:15
  • @Braiam FYI, I wasn't talking about the [regex] situation in particular. Even though it was used as an example, this question/proposal is about a rule to be applied across the entire site. Anyway, let's not hijack this answer with a side conversation. Steven will probably hate me even more for that :-D
    – 41686d6564
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:25
  • 1
    While this might be something for SE to consider (ignoring if I think it's a good idea, or not), it's not something we moderators can reasonably implement on our own. Thus, it's not a viable alternative to the proposal in the question, which is something that is being considered for implementation without SE system changes.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 3:29
  • 4
    @StevenPenny The edits which were made here are objectively improvements (fix spelling and/or typos). They are the sort of edit which users are encouraged to perform on all posts. The edit helps make the post clearer, without changing the meaning of what you've written.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented May 24, 2021 at 5:59
  • I feel this is a poor idea. If you blindly suspend deleters when a post is undeleted, and suspend undeleters when a post is deleted, you'll punish anyone who votes to delete on a bad post that then goes on to actually get improved, undeleted, and reopened for something that was a correct action at the time. This won't take out "the 10 people", nor will it only affect delete/undelete wars, this will actively kill moderation on Stack Overflow Commented May 25, 2021 at 20:34
  • The systems the moderators are suggesting is to handle delete/undelete wars, not to punish anyone who either votes incorrectly, or voted correctly but in a way that has since been obsoleted by one or more edits (and possible attention from meta) - what you're proposing is just automatically suspending anyone who voted to delete or undelete if it's undone, which will have huge consequences on popular, disputed posts even in the first delete/undelete cycle. You risk suspending 10 people deleting a blatantly off-topic post because 10 people decided to disagree for historical purposes. Commented May 25, 2021 at 20:37
  • Before saying it's unlikely, yes it is, but that doesn't mean it has never happened (or that it won't happen again). It has, in fact, including on this one that featured that exact case, but between two moderators. Suspending the first moderator when the undelete happened would've been completely unreasonable. The odds of it happening are low, but if it does, the price to pay is extremely high. I'll take warnings and a manual suspension over an automated suspension based on the metric you describe any day. Commented May 25, 2021 at 20:40

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