49

It feels a bit like the company behind Stack Overflow doesn't want this to be a community thing anymore, so I've decided to step down from using any moderation tools. For this I've created a user script to hide everything moderation related (like closing, downvoting, deleting, ...). I did this before for the community, now it feels like working for a company without getting compensation; I'm not okay with that.

I'm wondering how others are handling the situation? I loved working for the community, working for a company under the same terms feels different to me. Are you still answering questions? Still moderating bad content? Still voting?

Did you change the way you use SO in any way? If so, how?

19
  • eh, there's been no public statement indicating that they don't want community. In fact, the opposite idea has been stated, that they want to use the fact that they have such a large community to pursue more corporate opportunities. but you're free of course to stop participating.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:09
  • 39
    @kevinb I’m old fashioned. I believe in what people are doing rather than in what they are saying. I know I’m free to do so, I’m interested in how others are handling this. We’ve seen enough moderators to step down, now I’m interested in the everyday user.
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:13
  • 12
    The everyday user isn't here, they're on SO asking and answering questions, if they're logged in at all.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:13
  • 5
    To be honest, your opinion on the state of the company may be what it is, but I'm of the impression that this has the potential to start more fires than not. If you rephrased your first sentence to be less accusatory in an imperative tone, it'd encourage engagement. (Read: you don't know what the company wants, and claiming something like that is more likely to start a fight than to help.)
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:15
  • 2
    @makoto can you help by editing? English isn’t my first language. Feel free to make it less accusatory, that’s not my intention
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:16
  • 1
    I'd edit this myself but that's a moderation-like thing to do. I'd just caution you against choosing such strong words. I'd actually suggest that you just stick to what you've done; you're not doing any moderation anymore and you want to know how others are dealing with the situation.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:20
  • 1
    I for one think "it feels a bit like" is a good improvement. Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:23
  • 1
    I think my problem with this post is the following question: "Are you still ok with working for a company without receiving payment?" That question assumes I feel the same way as you. If I don't, well, I don't see myself answering that question. Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:24
  • 6
    At no point have I felt I'm working for stackoverflow the company. I was always working towards Jeff Atwood's vision. I still am. I understand SO Inc. are a for-profit company and will act like one. That doesn't mean I accept the current situation; I don't. This seems to be an event in motion (slow-motion most recently) I am waiting to see what the results are before I act. Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:30
  • 3
    @GrumpyCrouton jsfiddle.net/r1wh23xa
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:36
  • 1
    @chrispbacon Thank you! Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:38
  • 4
    If you are going to hide downvoting you should also hide upvoting and comment upvoting as well
    – Joe W
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 20:03
  • 2
    @joew thought about that quite some time. I’ve decided to appreciate other people’s work and effort though, no matter what.
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 20:07
  • 2
    @JoeW hypocritical is a morale dimension and doesn't really apply here. Everyone is free to do whatever he likes. If only part of the moderation work is fun for you, then do only part. Inconsistent may be a better word. Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 6:39
  • 1
    @Trilarion Wanting to do moderation that makes people feel better vs moderation that helps keep the site higher quality?
    – Joe W
    Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 15:20

7 Answers 7

55

I've been answering questions on-line for about twenty-five years. Transitioning from CompuServe forums, to newsgroups when Microsoft decided to give up its forums, then to MSDN, before landing here. (And I came here because the Microsoft Devs for Office said this is where they'd be, not MSDN, because it's "where devs want to be". I found this rather off-putting, considering MSDN was/is "theirs", but managed to make the transition, anyway.)

So change, disappointment and adjustment aren't new to me. Neither is the reason for what I do: help people understand the software they're dealing with and, at the same time, learn new things, myself.

And also work in a "community" of similarly oriented professionals. For more than twenty years, that was the Microsoft MVP program. Just over a year ago, I (and many others) were not renewed, not because we failed to help people, but because Microsoft decided that it wanted to recognize only "cloud-oriented" people. (Next disappointment...)

Luckily, by that time I had found a "home" on SO. After dealing with newsgroups (utter wild West chaos, no moderation) and MSDN forums (little quality control beyond removing spam and moving off-topic messages), SO was a very welcome change.

It still continues to be a much more "comfortable working environment" than any other I've experienced. (CompuServe was well-moderated, but the interface available back then was no comparison to what we have nowadays.)

Despite everything, the "powers" haven't shut down Meta, haven't gotten rid of "chat", and still tolerate (if not directly encourage) community among its users. Things could be worse.

It's too bad that there's not more interaction with the company. But this is also something I've been through as part of the MVP program. Things might get better... or might not. The initial tensions I experienced were on Stack Overflow, specifically. Now the eye of the storm has moved, more generally, to other areas of the site, especially Meta SE, while on the SO public-facing side (I don't know about the moderator area) things are quiet and generally productive. The feeling in The Meta Room (chat) is generally forward-looking in respect to SO and supportive.

The fears that the site will open up completely (no quality standards) I believe to be incorrect. Coming from the background I have, supporting "newbies" to coding is nothing new, as long as we're not expected to write entire projects or tutorials (not the case!).

So I currently have no plans to change what I do on the public-facing side.

I had been considering running for moderator at some point, but if an election were to run right now, I would not nominate myself, not knowing what the interaction and relationship with The Company would be.

As for moderation activities, using the tools available to the user community, I continue to do so as time allows. Moderating the site is to the benefit of us, all, who continue to use it.

10
  • 2
    I love your answer. I've started using SO when I started programming, I haven't gone through all of that....
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:44
  • 1
    Your last sentence, the one you edited in, is exactly what I'm personally unsure about. In the long run, it's mainly for the company's benefit. The normal user won't see the question after a few hours anyway.
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:45
  • 3
    @chrispbacon I believe this is something everyone needs to decide for themselves, as best their conscience dictates. For me, up-/down-/close-/re-open voting helps us (the users). Yes, of course, it also helps the company, who's hosting the site. But if having a place to work (ask/answer) is something I want, then I'd like it to be in optimal condition. That just my opinion/feeling. You and others may see it differently, and that's fine :-) Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:52
  • Ah, to the point "the normal user won't see the question after a few hourse, anyway" @chrispbacon : If the question remains on the site, it could well come up in searches. Waste of people's time if it's not useful... Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:54
  • 1
    Yap. I’m undecided on this one. I completely get your points and reasoning and I will consider it.
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 19:57
  • 15
    This is a great answer; thanks for sharing your perspective. I had thought I’d noticed a change in the MS MVP program, but I didn’t realize it was an official policy. How unfortunate. I’m another person who doesn’t have my head in the clouds. Regarding moderation, you’d likely have my vote. I’ve been very impressed with what I’ve seen from you on Meta over the last year or so as you’ve picked up your activity. The relationship with Company is strained, but I keep going back to that title, “Community Moderator”. I know who I answer to. It may yet cause me to be removed; we’ll see.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 20:12
  • 1
    You('d) have my vote too :) Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 20:25
  • 2
    Very odd about your not getting renewed. I'm still in the program, and my award category has very little to do with the cloud... honored to have been on the same ranks as you for a couple of years, at least. However... I do feel that I have very little community among MVPs from my region. The vast majority of MVPs around here are, like you said, "cloud-oriented". I'm one of probably only two or three from my country that isn't. It's very difficult for me to relate to the others, even if I do attend meetups, conferences and such (like the Insider Dev Tour a few months ago).
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 13:04
  • @CodyGray "may yet cause me to be removed": I sincerely hope not! Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 17:35
  • Coerced speech is beyond "change, disappointment and adjustment". If it was just a bunch of people accusing each other of being cliquey or the website Not Being What It Used To Be, I'd be saying "yeah, yeah" and watching from the sidelines without changing my behaviour. The principles enshrined in the FAQ and aggressively promoted by SE however would have a profound negative effect on me in real life now, every day. If these principles became law in a country where Monica was an SE employee, she would have been sacked. If you don't stand up for freedom of conscience, who will protect yours? Commented Oct 22, 2019 at 5:47
13

I've been around for a few years, but I still think of myself as more of a casual user, so maybe I have a little different perspective on it. I think I'm much more like the person Kevin B is referring to.

The everyday user isn't here, they're on SO asking and answering questions, if they're logged in at all.

I still use Stack Overflow mostly the same way I always have. I still find answers to questions here pretty easily. I can still answer other people's questions if I find any that look any good. My moderation activity only consists of up/down/close voting in the course of doing one or the other of those things. I already stopped doing review queues a while ago when I changed jobs and had less time. The various controversies haven't had much effect on the way I use the site. I don't intend to change any of my behavior as I continue, and I don't anticipate any of the code of conduct changes having any impact on me because of that.

I still feel like I'm part of a community in the same small way I've always been, and I still feel like the time I spend here is worthwhile for the same reasons as when I joined. I never felt much connection between the community and the company (other than a few certain people), or that being part of the community really depended on the company, other than our need for them to keep the site running. I'd probably feel differently about it if I'd been here from the beginning and been part of building this, but that had all already happened when I got here. I totally understand people who are more invested than I am being upset because they don't have a voice with the company, but I've never felt like that was something I needed for my level of participation, so I'm not personally upset by it.

On the other hand, the way I use Meta Stack Overflow is much different. I used to enjoy coming here, learning more about how the site worked, how and why things had gotten the way they were, reading discussions, and participating sometimes. That deeper understanding made me feel more connected, like more of a part of the community than just doing Q&A stuff on the main site did, even when I didn't post or comment much. I still read Meta because I'm interested in what's going on, but it's a very unpleasant place to be now. I'm answering this because I didn't feel like the other answers represented my point of view, but for the most part I'm reluctant to participate here at all any more.

Meta makes me feel like less of a part of the community. It used to feel more like everyone was united in a common goal despite some minor disagreements. Now it feels more like warring factions, bitter arguing instead of constructive discussions, and the only thing that people seem to have in common is that they're all mad. It's like going to a meeting where a bunch of people yell at each other about something that has nothing to do with me. The only reason I keep checking in is that I'm waiting for the dust to settle from whatever resolution occurs because I'm curious what things will look like afterward. I'd like to see it get back to the way it used to be, but at this point it doesn't look like that's feasible.

7
  • 2
    Interesting. You spend so much time here, even in casual mode, and still you basically do not feel protective of your work. Either you have much trust in SO or you are very generous with your time and knowledge. :) Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 6:35
  • 5
    I'm here because I enjoy answering questions, and I like contributing to free public q&a. I suppose that second part does indicate that I'm generous with my time and knowledge, but isn't everyone who volunteers here? As far as being protective of my work, I think as long as SO doesn't turn off public q&a, the work I've done here isn't in any danger, and I can't think why they'd do that. Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 17:53
  • "I can't think why they'd do that" - Greed, money. Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 13:55
  • @GrumpyCrouton Public Q&A is the main reason anyone comes here, right? I don't see how turning that off would make them any money. Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 18:01
  • @Don'tPanic Well it starts with greed, and thinking they could make more money by charging for their "high quality content" (as other platforms have), which I agree would probably fail - but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try it. Granted, they also may not. Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 18:17
  • @GrumpyCrouton Sure, I suppose it's possible. As far as my trust in SO that Trilarion mentioned, it really isn't something I've thought about much, but I do trust them to not do that. Actually I guess it isn't exactly trust, but more like assuming that they'll know it's not in their best interests. Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 18:37
  • @Don'tPanic Yeah, it's definitely all just speculation. As for them knowing it's not in their best interests, they don't seem to have a very good track record of really caring about that and/or know what their best interests even are. But really we don't know their vision or what they want for the future of the site at all. Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 18:40
13

Yes, I anonymised my account and will not take any more actions on the site like voting, editing, answering questions. The treatment that Monica got shows that it's not safe to be on SO under your real name, and I don't want to lend any (more) credibility to coerced speech. I also feel uncomfortable on a site where offensive, strongly political terms are used ("cis" and "TERF" are two that I have seen).

I don't really expect this answer to stay around for very long either, as voicing these thoughts tends to get one deleted.

4
  • What is strongly political about "cis"? It's just a Latin word for same site, isn't it? Please note that I'm not from the US. Do you maybe have a synonym for cis that you find better suited? Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 6:42
  • 3
    Cis is latin, and literally means "same side". Cis in this context is short for cisgender, which is a reference to people who identify with the gender they were born as (i.e. people who identify as female, and were born female). It's not offensive, nor is it political, and if you're going to label it that, you're gonna have to do the same with the term "trans" Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 7:32
  • 4
    @Trilarion, "non trans" is the neutral term. The other is political because of the context in which it is used, i.e. predominantly by a group to which this word does not apply. A parallel would be "Eskimo" which was predominantly rejected by the Inuit as a description for them because it was mainly used by non-Inuit (though there were/are a few inuit who didn't mind the term). "Trans" is the term that trans people currently use to describe themselves, therefore it presumably cannot be offensive. If it became offensive in the future, I would of course avoid using it. Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 18:20
  • 2
    cis is political/offensive or not depending on context. Same for trans and almost everything. Someone might wish to write a FAQ explaining when cis is political/offensive. But we all know how that ends up. Commented Oct 20, 2019 at 15:12
13

StackOverflow isn't dead yet by far, but has seen better times for sure. Currently, the general conditions aren't very good.

It always was a company from the first day on and it always was clear that they want to make money, not only build a programming site. In a way you always worked for them for free. That never changed. The good thing though is that you don't owe them anything because they didn't pay you anyway. You can simply walk away if it's not fun anymore for you.

It looks like in the beginning the interaction with the community was bigger than today. Maybe they lost some essential insight on the way, maybe they are now less dependent on the community. I don't think it has to be like this, but often it is when startup companies get old.

My problem was more and more that's so difficult to find answerable questions now compared to before, but my memory might also trick me there. Sometimes searching for the proverbial needle in the haystack. Searching and cleaning up and quality control are not much fun. I'm not here for spending my time downvoting but for answering or asking.

There is a slow decline in questions, answers, scores and views of contributions from 2016 on. It's steady and seems to be quite undisturbable. I wonder where that leads to. I'm not Jon Skeet who just answers questions after questions . You could probably build a site just around him. As long as he is here, Stack overflow will live.

On the other hand I have often heard that people only stay here because there is no better alternative. That means that if there was one it might be different.

The main shock this year for me was the re-licensing. I contacted them and asked them for an explanation multiple times and got nothing but silence. That has destroyed trust that I had in their honesty and openness. I re-evaluated how much good me spending time here can be.

The community is only part of the whole eco-system here, and naturally people leave all the time and new people will continue to come. If there was a more community-centered, non-profit clone of Stack overflow, I would probably like it a lot.

5

... transitioning from a community to a company site ...

I can't really relate to that.

Yes we do generate good content. Yes, The company benefits from that because they can sell ads and promote other products. That's how companies work. They have to run servers, pay their employees ...

On the other hand you don't write answers for them. You write those for the asker, and the many people googling for an answer.

It feels a bit like the company behind Stack Overflow doesn't want this to be a community thing anymore

Yes, these times aren't golden. I totally understand if you stop moderating. I'll stay. I have hope that finally things get back onto the track again.

I don't think there is such a thing as the company. Yes, there are a few individuals making a few questionable things. Some of them already apologized they are trying to do better.

But there are also the CMs that are with us since ages and there is the Q&A Team that is currently addressing a lot of new features (I'm curious what's in the makes, the blog and the recent experiments done seem promising).

Yes, that CoC thing really went wrong - but if you look again at it and ignore all that meta hyperbole - the actual change made is actually quite reasonable (the FAQ is definetly not) and it adresses a problem we have ignored far too long.

1
  • "I don't think there is such a thing as the company." Legally there is and the individuals in the company have to agree with each other averaging the influence of single ones and finally they must do what the owners want. Policy of SO is almost the same for the last years. It may change in the future or it may not change. But they don't the same freedom as members of the community. Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 6:24
4

I went ahead and made my own version of your userscript, because yours seemed to be lacking a tiny bit in my opinion.

Feel free to install my version from here.

If you look at the code, you can see there are a few booleans near the top which will allow you to toggle certain moderation tools such as upvoting (comments/answers/questions), answering and asking questions.

You can also obviously just remove certain things from the elements_to_remove array if there are certain things you want to see.

If you want to manually install the script, here it is. (Also does not include updating from my Github)

// ==UserScript==
// @name         Anti-Moderation Tools (SE Strike Script)
// @namespace    https://github.com/GrumpyCrouton/Userscripts
// @version      0.1
// @description  Disables moderator abilities on SE sites.
// @author       GrumpyCrouton
// @match        *://stackoverflow.com/*
// @match        *://meta.stackoverflow.com/*
// @match        *://superuser.com/*
// @match        *://meta.superuser.com/*
// @match        *://serverfault.com/*
// @match        *://meta.serverfault.com/*
// @match        *://askubuntu.com/*
// @match        *://meta.askubuntu.com/*
// @match        *://mathoverflow.net/*
// @match        *://meta.mathoverflow.net/*
// @match        *://*.stackexchange.com/*
// @match        *://answers.onstartups.com/*
// @match        *://meta.answers.onstartups.com/*
// @match        *://stackapps.com/*
// @grant        none
// ==/UserScript==

(function() {
    'use strict';

    var disable_upvote = true;

    var disable_answering = false;
    var disable_asking = false;

    var elements_to_remove = [

        //menu bar
        'li.review-button-item', //review queue button

        //general site
        'button.js-vote-down-btn', //question/answer downvote
        'a.edit-post', //edit button
        'a.close-question-link', //close button
        'a.flag-post-link', //flag button
        'a.js-comment-flag', //comment flag button

        //comments
        'div.comment-flagging', // comment flag button

        //revisions page
        'a.js-rollback-revision', //rollback button
        'a[title="edit this revision"]', //edit button

    ];

    if(disable_upvote) {
        elements_to_remove.push('button.js-vote-up-btn'); //question/answer upvote
        elements_to_remove.push('div.comment-voting'); //comment upvote
    }
    if(disable_answering) elements_to_remove.push('form#post-form');
    if(disable_asking) elements_to_remove.push('a[href$=ask]');

    $.each(elements_to_remove, function(index, value) {
        $(value).remove();
    });

})();

If I missed any elements, please let me know.

7
  • 9
    What is the point? Just log out and browse as an anonymous user. Boom, all moderation tools removed on the server side; no need for a script.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 20:52
  • 3
    @CodyGray The ability to be a part of discussions still is why I'd prefer to stay logged in. My script hasn't removed any commenting abilities except flagging and upvoting (and upvoting is enable-able through a boolean). Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 21:00
  • 5
    @codygray then upvoting doesn’t work either and boom, you get even more advertisements. Answering also doesn’t work then. Maybe my post as a whole is not the perfect fit for someone who has not yet resigned as a mod, I can anticipate your opinion already.
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 21:04
  • 10
    My way of dealing with the crisis aside (I may post an answer later), I am very concerned about users who disable themselves from downvoting, yet continue to upvote. This badly skews the voting system, which is designed to work as a pair. If you see downvoting as a moderation task, then surely upvoting is, too. I take the point about ads, but then you could remove those with a script. @chris
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 21:09
  • 3
    @CodyGray I think you're a good moderator and the part of your comment to Cindy's answer, highlighting you're a 'Community Moderator', is promising. However, I think you are partially wrong here. Upvoting can be done starting from 15 rep, whereas downvoting requires more than 8 times (or 733%) the reputation. I don't want to get too much into statistics and detail, but the voting system is already skewed*. Feature requests regarding the issue remain unanswered. Also, voting is a privilege, not an obligation, and can be done, according to the site's rules, however one likes. I think it's a very
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 21:33
  • 1
    bad idea to start arguing "if you want to upvote you have to downvote".
    – baao
    Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 21:33
  • 2
    @CodyGray it is very easy to see what content is "useful to me" and upvote (and I rarely find not useful content when I need answers). Downvoting questions on other hand is purely moderation activity that preferably aligns with current policy (not publicly available or non-existent at the moment) on acceptable/desired questions. I would not care too much about downvotes on answers as those are exceedingly rare even now. Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 23:30
-7

In fact I noticed that still 1-2 years ago, when I made a question on stack, users tried to help, even if question was similar to another one (for beginners, it is not always obvious). Now more and more I notice that some users set the question as a duplicate even if it is not, I don't know if this is part of that, but now on stack I am very careful before posting, cause also many users tend to downvote if they think question is too "easy". Fortunately, still lot of users continue to answer and try to help, even if sometimes I agree I made questions a bit "obvious" for experimented programmists, but not at all for beginners (even more when like for me, never learned programming at school).

About how it influenced me : Before I used ONLY stackoverflow when needed to look for information (except some tutorials), but now I try to look a bit everywhere including stack, but stack is no more a reference to me.

2
  • 4
    "but now on stack I am very careful before posting" ... which, honestly, is what everyone should be doing anyway. I've only resorted to asking 5 questions in the last 8+ years because, frankly, almost everything I've never needed to find out (LAMP stack) has already been asked and answered.
    – CD001
    Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 16:09
  • @CD001 yes I understand that, what I mean is sometimes, the question is different. As beginner we don't understand that in fact, it is the same issue as another one. Many times people here for years forgot what it means to be a beginner, and just say them "look there". Sometimes the given link is quite explicite enough, but sometimes it is or a link to a similar(but not same) issue, or to something that is not related to the question at all. Just seems to me that sometimes people here since many years forget what means to be a beginner. Didn't have this feeling when I started on stack. Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 18:52

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