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For a while now, we've seen a breakdown in communication between Stack Overflow and the community, however, more recently, we've seen this relationship deteriorate rapidly.

It has become a trend that changes ("features") are pushed out without any prior consultation. Then, in the introductory meta post of said change, push-back is shown by the community and as a result, once again, everyone is left with a bad taste in their mouth from another sour experience. Each time we go through one of these situations, the relationship wears down further.

We, the community, repeatedly are presented with the same spiel (though, more recently, even it has been dropped):

We know we suck at communicating and we're working on communicating things more effectively [...]

The other excuse is to say that meta hasn't scaled well. Fine, let's agree on that point, but has meta scaled so badly that you can't even use it to consult with us?

It's almost as though you (the company, not the individual) don't care about the users (or, from a cynic's perspective, are actively trying to push out the old folks to make way for the new direction SO is headed in) who have been participating for the best part of a decade. It's just so frustrating seeing this happen, over and over and over again.

You are fully aware that major changes generally aren't taken too keenly by the community without some sort of prior discussion, yet, you repeatedly do it anyway, and are actually shocked at the negative response. Do you seriously expect another outcome?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

My question, specifically to the CMs or other employees responsible in this area is as follows:

Why, if you are aware of this issue, do you continue to push out changes, without at the very least, consulting the community?

For me, personally, even if SO came out and said:

We're taking Stack Overflow in a new direction, here's how it's going to work...

and that direction was completely opposite to the old SO then at least it'd be out in the open and we'd know what to expect. At this critical juncture, we've been left in limbo, we have have no idea what's going on, and that allows angst and frustration to build up.

In all fairness, sure, people get worked up here and can be overly critical, but, did you see how ecstatic the community became when you slapped status-review on a couple posts? The community isn't just negative. Let's not perpetuate that. I guess, it just wants to feel "involved" (respected).

I'm not trying to bait anyone, I genuinely want an official response to why the same mistake is being made over and over and over and over again.

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    I think they are consulting the community, they're just doing it non publicly and in a different forum, via external stakeholders and interested people on external channels, via data science, and via research interviews and surveys from the research list. Meta doesn't scale as an apportionate tool to gain community consensus.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:37
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    From the blog: We all have ideas on how to make the system better. The great news is we have experienced researchers, data scientists, and an amazing product manager that will be gathering feedback from us, the community, and many other places and partners to make educated decisions about solutions. By the time they announce on meta all the feedback has been gathered and it's just a courtesy, which is further evident by the fact that future announcements won't be on meta, but on the blog and won't need a featured tag either. The downsizing of hot meta posts further indicates they're
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:38
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    going ahead on the plan to significantly remake or phase out meta alltogether. There was a cross platform discussion with CMs recently that also came to the conclusion that meta as it exists fails to assist new users and fails to reach a representative stakeholder consensus.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:38
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    As a counter-point: Feature requests are being looked at!
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:41
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    It's pretty buried, but one of the statements I was able to find is here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/386584/… which confirms that SE believes meta to be a small echo chamber type thing that does not dictate or even input significantly into actual change processes.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:15
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    I don't get all the talk about SE doing stuff without consulting the community. The last time they consulted us, it was a bigger waste of our time.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:34
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    @Tiny I don't quite agree that they always ignore feedback. The problem occurs when non-devs, and other management related folks ask for feedback. We have had the new Moderator Dashboard where Brian (a dev) and Megan (a PM) asked for feedback, and they have been really receptive to it, making changes almost as requested. Similarly the tag synonyms page was improved after receiving feedback and this time it was Adam (another dev). Yaakov has been quite active recently (again a dev). Nick Craver immediately sprung in on that ads issue.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 18:11
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    I unfeatured this - a flag request that made sense- I featured this meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387651/… as it's explaining much of the mystery behind this post.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 6:21
  • related discussion at MSE: Let's take a look at the interaction between staff and the “power users” of the network
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 10:00

1 Answer 1

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Historically Meta Stack Overflow was where three things were discussed:

  1. Debate, Discuss, Protest things happening in Stack Overflow/Exchange the company
  2. Stack Overflow communicating features that would affect the entire network
  3. Issues of particular concern to the Stack Overflow programmer community

Ideally, we would only have to deal with #3, and #1 and #2 would be handled elsewhere. This is how the vast majority of meta sites operate, and it would be beneficial to the Stack Overflow programmer community if we could operate in the same manner. We could conceivably talk about #1 and #2 but that takes this site away from the purpose of a meta site: To discuss issues relevant to that site and resolve them.

We can't really resolve company issues here; and that leads to frustration on the part of the community for 'not being heard' and presumably frustration on the part of the company.

However, Meta has always been that hammer, even if the problem isn't a nail.

We need a public place to commune where we feel like we're being heard by Stack Overflow (the company); but as we've found, putting it on Meta.SO splits the focus of this meta site, and unnecessarily distracts from particular community issues that we have. Meta.SO should not have to be that place, though I'm not sure with the inertia we'll ever get away from using Meta.SO as a means to publicly ask the company to change its direction on issues.

To expound on each part:

Debate, Discuss, Protest things happening in Stack Overflow/Exchange (the company)

Meta has been used historically to press Stack Overflow (the company) for change, whether it's feature changes, outreach changes, marketing changes, sales changes, or general feedback. Some of this was moved to Meta.SE, but some of it still exists on Meta.SO.

When it was just Stack Overflow and three other sites, that was OK. Now that it's a family of 300+ sites, several rounds of VC, and a desire to 'exit' for those VCs, the small town feel that meta provided no longer aligns with the business needs of the company. (Once again, I'm saying this as an outside observer, I have no inside knowledge, and I don't speak for the company; nor could I since I'm not a representative of the company).

So what happens when you keep trying to do things because "we've always done them that way" even though the entire landscape around you has changed? Frustration happens. Regardless of how much parts of the community may want that "small town direct action" feel when posting a meta question in hopes of getting Stack Overflow the company to do something or change something, it's gone. It's not happening. It may happen in extremely isolated circumstances that could be akin to catching lightning in a bottle; but it should not be expected to be a regular occurrence.

Does that mean Stack Overflow (the company) has stopped listening? Not at all! If anything, it means they're doing exactly what I would expect a business that wants to survive to do: They're picking the avenues of action that will do two things:

  1. Net them the most amount of feedback for their target audience for the least cost.
  2. Focus on delivering on their mission and value proposition.

As much as we enjoy kicking around on meta, even if we agreed it would fulfill #1 (we don't), it wouldn't fill #2, even though it'd feel good. If you're busy delivering, you aren't busy talking about delivering. It's the same here. Corporations do not have unlimited resources and time.

So for us, this is a good thing. We won't get frustrated about attempting to change things we can't (or shouldn't) try to change; and the Stack Overflow folks can focus on iterating on the core Q&A product to improve its reputation (and thereby grow its audience), and on getting targeted feedback when they need it from that audience. We have not been the target audience for a long time, we are a subset of the audience, but we aren't enough in numbers to sustain a business.

Stack Overflow communicating features that would affect the entire network

Part and parcel to the second half of the above is how they get feedback and how they communicate with their target audience. Meta is Stack Overflow's garage where we've hung out and talked about the halycon days, but now we're asking the entire neighborhood (or city, depending on how you look at it) to come to our garage to talk about HOA problems. We need a community center, and Stack Overflow's Meta isn't that. It's a garage for talking with close friends about our challenges and opportunities for this site.

We benefit in a few ways from moving HOA problems to a community center: First is that there's no perceived favoritism in a site. Second is that when new people come along, they're not used to looking for answers in someone's garage. In fact, if you told me the HOA meeting was going to be in Joe's garage I'd start to feel a bit uncomfortable about the whole affair unless I was best friends with Joe. We don't want people to feel uncomfortable about coming into our community. That's bad for us financially.

Yes, not the company, but Us. You and Me.

Stack Overflow has a few options:

  1. Pay back VC with returns so they can stay a private company.
  2. Sell.
  3. Go Public.

I don't see #3 happening without a whole lot of growth trajectory of the other SE sites. I can see #2 happening, but I hope for #1.

If Stack Overflow pays back VCs with their returns we could expect a reduced staff at Stack Overflow (sad face); but the core and essence of what this site is would stay the same. We would also expect the company to operate on a profitable trajectory, and that way we'd have a better relationship with them, as the growth rate would hopefully be slower, more manageable, and our voices would count for more.

If Stack Overflow sells, we're looking at few companies who would be in the right place to buy them:

  1. Microsoft - Our best choice given the alternatives. Likely lots of the other non-tech Stack Exchange sites would fall by the wayside, sadly.
  2. Google - Not a good suitor. They love dumping properties; and they don't have a good track-record for maintaining software.
  3. Apple - I can't see this happening. Apple doesn't seem to be in the business of buying up these types of sites; but it could happen. Not necessarily a bad choice; but an unknown choice as this would be the most public opportunity for feedback, and they're a notoriously closed company when it comes to responding to feedback.
  4. Atlassian - This makes the most sense to me, but I can't imagine it'd be a good relationship since they're an Australian company and the whole encryption-back-door thing is happening there right now. This would be bad for us once they realized Stack Overflow is a bit different than their other acquisitions.
  5. Potentially Slack, once they IPO. I could see this happening since it dovetail's nicely with their mission.

There are other potential suitors; but those are the biggest ones I can think of. Really unless it's Microsoft you can expect big changes.

Overall, I bring this up because we want Stack Overflow to do well enough financially to sustain themselves and pay back VCs (or do so well as to go public) but we don't really want them to get acquired unless it's by Microsoft. It's in our best interest to move from the garage to the community center and to support Stack Overflow in this move.

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    'This is how the vast majority of meta sites operate, and it would be beneficial to the Stack Overflow programmer community if we could operate in the same manner.' - Could you please expand upon how it would benefit us if we had less #1 and #2?
    – Script47
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:31
  • 'but as we've found, putting it on Meta.SO splits the focus of this meta site, and unnecessarily distracts from particular community issues that we have.' - Though, one could argue that #1 is a symptom of #3 not being handled appropriately. As for #2, I guess it's done purposely on MSO because it is the largest community and would affect the most number of people.
    – Script47
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:32
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    @Script47 George seems to be agreeing with us. The reality, though, is that the shareholders don’t seem to be interested in what we think. They don’t see beyond the “Users that put eyes on ads”. We can tell George and the rest of the moderators what we think all the time, but in the end, they’re not the ones calling the shots either. The ones that are don’t seem to be interesten in Meta.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:45
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    The problem is, you know what programmers hate more than anything? Change. Change usually = problems. Not telling us about stuff in advance, like the HMP fiasco, doesn't allow us to prepare for change. It catches us off guard and makes us feel unheard an unappreciated. All the OP (and by extension the community at large) is for some advance notice for stuff like this.
    – user10957435
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 4:19
  • Two issues with the answer: for one, your three groups have a lot of overlap. There are some parts of #1 and #2 that are not in group #3 but IMO it's a small subset. And if you propose that a change by SE which directly affects SO should be debated / protested on meta.SE instead of here that would be a nonstarter for me (see next comment). Many problematic topics are either directly related to SO or have the biggest impact here - I don't think the welcoming push and quality concerns matter much for arcade or aviation.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 14:26
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    Second, separate rep on meta.SE hinders participation there. I was active on SO and meta at the time of the split, but not on other sites; meta activity consisted mostly of lurking, commenting, voting, curating. Got the association bonus on meta.SE and thus basic privileges, but after downvoting two answers I had less than 100 rep and couldn't dv anymore. I'm not against gating the voting ability on meta.SE behind rep, but for someone with enough rep on SO it shouldn't be required to gather rep on a completely separate site just to vote on things that directly affect SO.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 14:31
  • @Script47 I updated my answer and expounded upon the reasoning.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 16:07
  • Speak truth? Get downvoted, son.
    – Dan Rayson
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 16:52

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