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Thanks for the lifejacket badges. But doesn’t it encourage the answering of questions judged as not useful by the community?

Really we should be prompting the OP with helpful comments, then answer once the voting score goes up.

Or am I being unashamedly quixotic?

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    Have you read the blog-post discussing the aims and stats behind this new badges?
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 17:44
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    @yivi: Yup. Yes it is created with good intentions but I feel it could increase the answering of poor questions, especially as an answered can upvote the question themselves.
    – Bathsheba
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 17:50
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    @Bathsheba "Don’t count the user’s votes on the question" - meaning you need 4 (6) sockpuppet accounts to get enough votes as answerer can't use main account to upvote question for those badges... Editing question into good shape feels easier than creating puppet accounts... Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 17:58
  • @AlexiLevenkov Ah that’s a good point.
    – Bathsheba
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 17:59
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    "answering of questions judged as not useful by the community" No chance questions still judged as not useful are getting a score of 20 in the end. It's far more likely that the initial judgement was wrong. Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 7:59
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    answer once the voting score goes up But it never will. Once it is at -3 the post is usually doomed, no matter what.
    – TaW
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 8:11
  • @TaW It has happened 862 times so far.
    – Teemu
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 9:52
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    In those case surely the votes went up after a good answer was posted, not before.
    – TaW
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 10:10
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    @Bathsheba ironically I got a Lifeboat badge for answering this
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 12:35
  • *broadly gestures around with both hands* : Being welcoming....?!
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23
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    Quixotic, thanks for teaching me a new word.
    – Malekai
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 15:17

4 Answers 4

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But doesn’t it encourage the answering of questions judged as not useful by the community?

No. Upvotes and downvotes are the only metric we might have but I've seen more than my share of highly upvoted crap and downvoted gems. The idea behind these badges is the encourage people to look past the downvotes and find the gems that can one day shine. It's also worth noting that sometimes initial voting is wrong.

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    That may be the goal, but the question is asking whether that will actually happen in practice. Is the badge more likely to encourage people to find great questions that happened to get downvoted, and then answer them, or is going to encourage people to answer downvoted questions in the hope that they just get upvoted anyway (or fixed by someone else to become better).
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 19:28
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    Considering it has to be at that score when you answer it, that's a pretty long shot. How many negative score questions ever see 0 again, let alone go positive? Most of the ones I've gotten today have been initially downvoted and eventually got upvotes over time
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 19:40
  • It being a longshot doesn't mean people won't do it. Lots of people strive for longshots. The entire gambling industry relies on it.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 20:46
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    @Servy We've had the Red Baron hat in some form for the past two years, which is nearly identical to Lifejacket. I haven't seen any indications that it caused more bad questions to get answered, have you?
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 21:45
  • It's not always easy to tell causes for these things, and people don't often tell you when they're doing something they shouldn't just for a reward. It's also a bit different when it's just for a short period of time. I know there have been a number of problems caused as a result of winterbash hats encouraging behavior that wasn't necessarily beneficial. I'm often not using the site very much around the holidays so I don't have so much first hand experience with it. Sadly it's hard to get good data as you don't have a good way of differentiating good from bad faith programmatically.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 21:50
  • "sometimes initial voting is wrong." I believe that is rarely he case. But a badly written question, which attracts downvotes, can sometimes be edited into something better. I think that happens, and can happen, more often.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 9:05
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    @Raedwald Well, let's not talk in abstract then. I got a Lifeboat badge for this question. The initial downvotes were because the original question was improperly using MD5 hashing (edits lead to a rollback war). But the core question of why the PHP password_hash function returns a different value every time was worth answering. I never imagined it would be a top answer at the time, but I've had a steady trickle of votes from people who apparently needed that answer. You can't predict that ahead of time, however.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 12:28
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    It's true that the initial voting might be wrong. For that matter, as a counterpart to the "lifejacket" badge, we'd need an anvil badge for people who post crappy answers to upvoted questions, helping to drag down the crap into oblivion :-D But seriously: One inherent problem of the vote count is the momentum that it generates: A question with -2 is probably more likely to only be skimmed and dowvoted hastily. A question with +5 (will show up in the mod tools and) will likely attract more attention and further upvotes. Whether the new badge can help here? There's hardly a way to find out.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 10:30
  • @Raedwald That question is an interesting example since the answer was (in part) answering a question that was subsequently edited to be a different (worse) question. The original question showed non-working code demonstrating a misconception, but it was edited to show working code while still claiming the code does not work. The answer provides good information, hence it's upvotes. For what it's worth I submitted edits to both the question and answer to more fully address the question as originally asked while retaining the good aspects of the answer. Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 17:26
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The fact that these badges require the negatively voted question to subsequently become positively scored suggests that users desiring these badges may also consider improving the question itself, for example by editing to remove grammatical errors, fix markup, remove fluff etc. I see this badge as more about improving a salvageable question so that it's no longer a bad question.

Viewed in this light, it's not necessarily going to encourage answering a low quality question: the fundamentally crappy questions just remain bad questions even after edits ("don't polish a turd"). However, there are occasionally poorly written questions which are somehow interesting underneath, and just need a bit of tidying up.

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    occasionally No. Much more than that.
    – TaW
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 8:10
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    My conclusion from this answer is: we should give this badge for edits instead of answers. In theory, that would make a lot more sense to me. In practice, I have no idea how to implement that considering a whole bunch of people might've edited any given question. Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 9:58
  • In The Workplace, it is a real problem, and I hope this badge encourage some users to do som efforts instead of going for the close vote button because the OP has an interesting question but isn't able to phrase it up to their (close voters) standard.
    – Walfrat
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 10:44
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I think these badges encourage those who may answer a question to look more closely at it to figure out what the asker wants.

There has been several occasions where I found a question that was downvoted that others thought was unclear, but I was able to figure out what was really being asked and posted an answer that ended up getting accepted.

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    If you've found an unclear question that you think you can understand then you should be editing that question to make it clear. At which point it ceases to be a low quality question.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2019 at 19:26
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    So? He may have done that. But how often do yxou come back to an edited downvoted question and change your vote?
    – TaW
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 8:09
  • @TaW: Especially since there's no notification that the question was edited; I'm not gonna "poll" my list of recently downvoted questions to see if they've been edited since. Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 11:10
  • While understandable this obviouly means that your downvotes mean nothing. The whole gauging system is broken.
    – TaW
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 11:30
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It might.

You get people who want to hunt badges on the site, and in doing so, they attempt to spruce up and edit and answer objectively poor questions. Then, others who may not have the same quality standards will also see that same question and then upvote it.

However, I'm not so sure it will. The question has to get a positive score in the end, and if it bubbles to the surface fast enough, enough people will be there to downvote it should it be required.

In the short term, though, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more poor questions suddenly appear in review queues or on the main page.

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    Yeah, sadly I feel it will mostly encourage rep and badge hoarders to answer even more low-quality crap, preventing it from being vacuumed. Lovely example (posted at -8).
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Jun 19, 2019 at 17:59
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    In particular, a very real problem is people answering questions that should have been closed as dupes instead. But dupes aren't necessarily down-voted so I'm not sure.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 12:44
  • @DanMašek, can you offer a definition "rep and badge hoarders"? It strikes me an odd idea in the context of designing incentives. We want people to want points and badges, right? If their pursuit of these things drives them to do harm, shouldn't we label that as an unintended consequence of the rep system, rather than a defect in the people?
    – goodson
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 16:13
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    @goodson People who are motivated primarily by the gain of reputation or badges. To answer your question, while the reputation system exists to motivate certain behaviors, we don't want the points and badges themselves to be more important than posting quality content. People are not machines. We expect them to realize the purpose of the reputation system and to act primarily in the interests of quality, not blindly pursue points. If they expect to be treated as people, then they must also accept responsibility for their actions, rather than blame the reputation system.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 17:36
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    @goodson That said, yes, if the reputation and badge system are doing more harm than good, they should be changed. But that doesn't give bad actors a free pass. They don't get to have it both ways: demand and expect respect and courtesy and encouragement while simultaneously shifting responsibility to an inanimate systems.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 17:39
  • Thanks @jpmc26. It's really interesting, especially this: "People are not machines". If that's wrong, your (otherwise solid) point of view turns to mush.
    – goodson
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 18:31
  • @goodson The implication of people being machines is also that they deserve no respect or kindness. Are you willing to throw those away as well?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 18:33
  • @jpmc26 - :-) it's a good debate (probably for philosophyoverflow.com, or whatever), but yes, I think I would, in exchange for doing away with interpersonal negativity. It's how I (try to) calm myself when I feel anger toward someone. I try to think: that behavior was just electrons buzzing around in their head. Electrons aren't anybody's fault.
    – goodson
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 18:49
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    @goodson jpmc26 already summed it up quite well. The goal is quality Q&A repo, not maxing up your score forever. When a user has been here for years, has enough rep for all the privileges, 100s of badges and thousands of posts getting him rep gains on daily basis... yet instead of helping curate the site they do things that go completely against what the community is trying to achieve... I find it rather hard to attribute that to the system.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Jun 20, 2019 at 22:30

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