-18

I asked a question, and somebody answered it. Their answer was very difficult to understand, but once I deciphered it, it was correct and helpful.

I marked the answer as correct and upvoted it, then reconsidered, as the answer was so difficult to understand. I decided to edit it, fix the issues, and leave the upvote in place.

The edit I made was substantial (basically, a complete rewrite), and it was accepted. The user that wrote the original answer made one small edit to my edit, which meant that I no longer show up as an editor.

I reedited the answer to fix their edit (as it restored a reference to a non-existent variable), which also restored me as an editor, but the other user reversed the edit. That restored what I consider to be an error, but I figured I'd done my best, and the error's not much more than a typo anyway, so I left it. However, this again made it appear that the author wrote the answer by themselves, when in reality, I was its editor.

I'm genuinely not bothered about points or appearing as the editor. My concern is that the system can easily be tricked into removing editors from answers. That encourages people to make small, pointless edits (and then prevent them from being reedited) to take credit for other people's contributions, and a quality of content that they could not create by themselves.

I'm not accusing the user in question of anything underhanded. They may genuinely think their edit is correct (it is their answer after all), and don't want anything doing about this case in particular. I'm only pointing out the potential for abuse.

16
  • 7
    You're still listed on that edit in the edit history. Only the most recent edit is shown on the post's face. If it were implemented as you desire, how would multiple editors contributing to a post be displayed? This isn't a bug since it's working as designed, but if you want to make a feature request that changes how editors are displayed, you'll need to give more information on what you desire to be displayed.
    – Davy M
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 15:14
  • 1
    Edits "credit" is not very important. Only the last editor is visible, and a post may have had many editors during its life. Anyone who focus on doing this kind of edit just so their post doesn't say "edited by" will probably lose their motivation soon. And if not, it's not really important.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 15:14
  • Well, if you click edited by, then it shows each edit and who did them. So if someone wanted to see what that user did, they would also see that you made the major edit.
    – user10892372
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 16:37
  • 1
    Personally, I found the answer easier to understand before the edits, it's too wordy (with a lot of the words not really adding anything IMO) Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 17:02
  • None of these comments address the issue being raised. There is a strong incentive (money) to make mickey mouse edits that allow users to take credit for the contributions of others. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:05
  • @CarlSmith: "None of these comments address the issue being raised." Yes, they do. They're explaining how the "edited" credit is determined and what it is for. The issue you raise is about how it gets determined. So those comments are perfectly legitimate. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:10
  • No. The issue I raised was the incentive for people to prevent other people from making future edits to their answers, which prevents me from improving those answers. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:25
  • The lack of attention to detail here is amazing. So far, not one person has commented on what was originally posted. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:27
  • 7
    @CarlSmith If everyone is misunderstanding you in the exact same way, then you probably need to reword what you are saying to make it clearer. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:44
  • 1
    Based on the chat conversation, it's pretty clear everyone is talking past you. Right now, your question is based on a misunderstood premise, and that's what has everyone confused. To garner a better reception, you really need to clarify what you're saying, and how it's a problem. Until that happens, this misunderstanding is going to continue.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 20:03
  • I have explained the problem, repeatedly, but there are a few people who have already responded without bothering to read (let alone consider) the question properly. The SO community is being taught Gresham's Law. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:51
  • 7
    @CarlSmith: You know, there really ought to be some kind of sanction for anyone who comes to Meta, posts a question, and then declares that it's everyone else whose at fault when nobody understands the point they're trying to make. Like a week-long ban or something. And twice as long if they declare that it's because nobody "bothered to read" the question. Maybe using that phrase alone should automatically institute the ban. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:54
  • What do I have to do to get banned for life? Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 23:03
  • This community used to be one of the best on the Web, and people like you ruined it. Now the old lot see high SO reputation as a warning. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 23:06
  • 2
    If you are really proud about your edits, then you can just show them all of your edit from your profile. Posts on SO are basically like articles on Wiki, it's editable by anyone and the revision history is public. I wonder if editors on Wikipedia also having this as an issue?
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 9:25

3 Answers 3

5

I'm going to give this a go to see if I can accurately display your concerns in a way that you can be sure I understand where you're coming from, then I will argue about my specific points of concern in this bug report.


You are concerned about the potential of abuse by the current layout of a post when it is edited. When a post is edited, the editor's name is displayed next to the name of the post author. Then, if the post author edits the post, the editor's name is removed and the post appears on the surface to be in its final state due to the pure merits of the original post author. Thus an author may write a very poorly written post, then get their post edited, then add an additional edit, resulting in a well written post that appears to be written by that author and only that author.

The potential for abuse comes from the perceived monetary advantage of people who use their Stack Overflow profiles, along with github and other places where their programming prestige is on display, to market themselves for work. A user who has very poor communication skills then can wait for an editor to improve their post, take credit for the edit, and then be worth more in the eyes of the freelancing contractor who may hire this user.

The whole confusion over the preventing of edits came from after you improved the post, the author then made another edit, then you noticed one more small and insignificant typo, but you corrected it anyways, and the user rolled back your edit. This resulted in (regardless of the intentions of the author) the author being listed as the only post author. This wasn't the main point of your question, but several comments went of in tangents about the point of the rejected edit, and by my understanding, that was just an example of how an insistent person could retain their name alone on their post if they wanted to. But the concern isn't about users rolling back edits, it's about users managing to eliminate the name of other editors on their post through edits or rollbacks or any mean to, at the end of the day, show up as the unique author to the post.

Up until here, is this understanding of what you are seeing and what you are concerned about accurate?


Now, I'm going to address several fundamental points of those ideas.

1) Posts edited by the author seem to remove the credit of the other editor(s).

The part about removing the credit of the other editors simply isn't true. As I pointed out in the comment, and as the other two answers have pointed out, the full edit history is available to everyone. If someone sees "edited March 9th..." on a question, they can click that button and see everyone who has contributed to that answer apart from the original author.

The concern still exists that the author can appear to be the sole editor if the viewer of the post does not bother to click that "edited" button to see the edit history. This part is true, if someone doesn't care enough about who edited the post to click on the "edited" button, then they won't ever know who else contributed to the post. I venture to claim that the people who don't investigate who contributed what part to the edit are the same people who don't care who wrote the answer, which is the vast majority of users of Stack Overflow, who use the site to find programming solutions, and couldn't care less who provides the solution.

2) Potential contractors of freelancers who depend on Stack Overflow posts may be fooled by the good content under a user's profile into thinking that person contributes well-written questions and/or answers.

I'm not sure about what proportion of users fall into this category. I imagine that it is extremely small, but you may have a much more profound insight into how many people work freelancing and use their Stack Overflow profile as evidence for their proficiency with programming. So I will default to your assumption that this segment of users is significant enough to reconsider if the current way of displaying editors is appropriate, and that it may provide an undue burden to contractors of freelancers.

Having that in mind, such contractors are more focused on the user providing the answers, who are their potential candidates for freelancing work. These people review the questions and answers of their candidates to decide if they may be a good fit for the work. Seeing good content increases the probability that the Stack Overflow user gets work and therefore money, having bad content may result in the Stack Overflow user missing out on a freelancing opportunity.

Now the question is: Are these contractors, who are taking the time to review Stack Overflow, the kind of people who are interested enough in who the author of content is, that they would worry about clicking the "edited" button to see what the original post by a user would look like?

If I am reviewing the resume for someone that might join my team at work, and I see company names I don't recognize, I don't take the candidate's summary of their work at face value, I lookup information on those companies to find out if the work described makes sense. Being a Senior Developer for 5 years at Brathata Systems might sound all good and dandy until I find out it's an internet cafe with 3 employees, then that person doesn't make it to the interview. This is one of the many simple checks I do for potential candidates.

Obviously the process is going to be different for someone wanting to contract a freelancer, but my point is that I pay attention to red flags that the person might not be what they say they are. Checking the edit links to see what the person posts first and how they update the post (regardless of if someone helped them or not) is a good way to evaluate if someone knows what they are talking about from the start and just make a few simple changes, or if they've completely re-worked their post because the first versions were completely wrong.

For that reason, I believe that contractors who are basing (at least in part) if a potential freelancer is worth contracting are exactly the kind of people who would look at revision history on posts, and would see the help other editors gave this person.

3) People can rely on Stack Overflow editors to fix their posts

Let's imagine a couple of scenarios of these freelancing users who are hoping their contributions will help them land a gig. On Stack Overflow, members of the community love to help keep Stack Overflow as a high quality repository of questions and answers, so they edit grammar and formatting and the like to meet that goal. However, we have a general policy about editing, which is often crudely referred to as "Don't polish turds." The general logic is this: If a user has posted a question or answer, the editor can help improve the post as long as he or she doesn't change the fundamental meaning of the post. If the post says nothing useful after being edited, don't bother cleaning it up, because it should be deleted anyways.

So if we have freelancing user A who contributes worthless content in broken English, one of two things will happen: An editor will come along and edit user A's post, resulting that the uselessness of user A's answer will be made obvious in perfect English, or editors will simply leave the post to rot. Either way, this will not look good for the user.

Alternatively, if we have freelancing user B who contributes very useful content in broken English, one of two things will happen: An editor will come along and edit user B's post, resulting in the post looking good, and user B having a good post in perfect English... or no editor will end up seeing that post or thinking they have time to edit it, and the post will sit rotting in broken English.

So we see that two main things have to happen for a user to get their post edited into good shape: First, they need to have posted a decent quality question or answer; something worth editing into shape. Then, an editor has to actually edit it. That means that the freelancing user has to know a lot about their field, and be lucky enough that their post gets edited. Perhaps that might happen to some people, but that's no where near likely enough to be a sustainable model for a freelancer who needs to maintain a good-looking profile.

All in all, I therefore disagree that people can rely on Stack Overflow editors to fix their posts, as it's a combination of the user knowing enough to post good content, and being lucky enough that an editor sees the good content and decides to edit the post into shape.

4) The fact that editors outside of the most recent editor aren't displayed is somehow a bug.

This is probably the point of your question that people took most umbrage with. You state that the fact that users can make a post appear unedited by anyone besides the post author is a bug, then go on to explain how it could be exploited. I've mentioned above why that exploit is too hard to exploit to be something we really need to worry about, but to focus on why it's still wrong to call this a bug, let's assume you're right, and that this could be exploited.

The feature that the most recent editor is shown on the face of the post, and all others only when the link is clicked, is implemented as-is because up until now, the focus of Stack Overflow has always been on the content, not the user. The user is displayed for accountability reasons, as is the editor, for cases of misinformation being able to be easily rolled back, or to be able to help with moderation of the site, but under the current model of Stack Overflow, there hasn't been a use case for having all editors visible on the face of a post. Thus this is a stylistic choice. Therefore there is no bug to be reported. If you want to suggest a change to how editors are currently displayed, then you should be raising a feature request about that, and use your concerns as justification as to why that stylistic choice should be different.

One of the key parts missing from your question, whether you want it to be a bug report or a feature request, is that you have not described at all what the expected behavior would be. What do you want to change? Do you want all editors to be displayed in a list next to the name of the original author? Do you want the most recent editor that is not the author to always be displayed when the author makes subsequent edits? If you had made clear the desired behavior, then you might have been able to avoid a lot of the perceived confusion in the comments where most people simply assumed that you didn't understand edit history is preserved when you click on the "edited..." text.

All in all, it is inaccurate to call this a bug report. And I dispute the validity of turning it into a feature request, as the reasons you have given for it being an important change I have rejected above in my explanations.


"The lack of attention to detail here is amazing. So far, not one person has commented on what was originally posted... there are a few people who have already responded without bothering to read (let alone consider) the question properly -- Carl Smith" I stand by my initial comment. In about 100 words, I pointed out the flaw in the assumption that credit is stolen, and queried what better behavior you desire, because reporting this as a bug didn't make sense. I understood the question properly from the start, and my judgement was that it was based on a flawed premise, so I stated that simply and directly. I've taken the time now to craft a complete answer specifically to make sure you can see I have considered your concerns, and am actively deciding that they are based on a flawed premise. Of course, I didn't take into account the potential financial effects until you made comments to that effect, as your original question said nothing about that, just about people taking credit. But I did take into account the fact that usually Stack Overflow users don't care who is the author to what content, and if someone does care enough that it would matter to them if the post author wrote something, or if it was clarified by an editor, that that would be the kind of person who would click the "Edited..." text to see the full revision history. And that conclusion turned out to be perfectly applicable to the concerns about financial gains through freelancing. The same flawed premise that the credit is stolen by insignificant edits leads to all the concerns you have.

If (and this is a big if) you still honestly believe that this is an actionable concern, meaning, that some change should be implemented in the Stack Overflow user experience to prevent small edits from placing the author as the most recent editor, then you will need to provide much more persuasive arguments as to why that change should be made. As your question currently stands, not one of the commenters or answerer's agrees that the concern is as important as you believe. But it is possible that your concern is valid and we are all oblivious to how important this is. The way to prove that to us isn't to keep arguing the same points over and over and accuse people of not listening, but rather, to provide solid visible examples of people abusing this feature, and provide justification as to why this is important enough to Stack Overflow that they should change this item of the user experience of how editors are displayed. Without those justifications, this feature will not change.

Also, on one last note, I have stated that you have provided a flawed premise and I have also called these exploits invalid concerns. Please don't take that to mean that I am in any way insulting you. As for you, I see a person who is legitimately concerned about an issue that raises feelings for that person, something that they consider important enough to spend time crafting this question and debating the point with many people in the comments. That is admirable, that you recognize something needs to change and that you do everything in your power to get other people to see that. If the points that I have provided persuade you to to believe that this issue isn't as important as you originally thought, then good. If they aren't that persuasive, then good. Many important changes in the world have been wrought by people who stood up in the face of everyone who told them they were wrong and proceeded to prove that they were right. Just tread lightly, and don't let your emotions get the better of you. Focus more on your proof of the issue, and less on how blind others must be for not seeing things your way, and if you can construct a more persuasive argument, do so. If your concern is valid, I look forward to being persuaded by it so that I can change my opinion on the matter.

6
  • I just had time to read through this properly. Thank you. You do fully understand my point (which is refreshing). I always thought the potential for abuse was small, and I only wanted to discuss whether it was worth addressing. I did think about leaving it, but concluded that SO is mature, so remaining issues will tend to be more subtle and less problematic these days. I did say that I "don't want anything doing about this case in particular. I'm only pointing out the potential for abuse". I just wanted to highlight and discuss a potential problem. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 17:22
  • Your version of my argument is correct, but you actually addressed a strawman version of it. I do not think anyone plans to get people to edit their posts. It's not premeditated. I think some will answer a question, and reedit another user's edit, all for legitimate reasons, and then see how it makes it look like they wrote the much nicer looking answer, and they then develop an aversion to allowing the original user to fix any more issues. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 17:32
  • In any case, the gist of your argument is still valid. I'm still not entirely convinced by it, but that was the point of this whole discussion: I am not sure that the potential is great enough to worry about, and wanted other points of view. You obviously understand the core claim I'm making, and disagree with it. I'm grateful to you for taking the time to do each of those things. I appreciate them both. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 17:36
  • The bulk of the users here did not read or understand my point, and will probably never read yours properly either. That is overwhelmingly typical these days. The majority of the active users are dicks, and have driven away most of the reasonable people. Normal people don't enjoy being instantly gang raped every time they try to help, especially by people that didn't read the post. It's deeply frustrating, and difficult not to get upset by. I know, we should never let those kinds of people bother us, but they still do sometimes, and then it's best to just walk away. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 17:43
  • We can agree to disagree about the potential for abuse of the editing feature. I'm happy to accept that I may be completely wrong about that, but I did raise the issue in good faith, and wanted nothing more than to discuss the potential for abuse with more knowledgable users. The response I got was not my fault, and it perfectly demonstrated the fact that the SO community is dominated by dickheads now, especially Meta. People leave and become deeply critical of the community they once loved, and once took pride in being part of, for real reasons. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 17:51
  • I marked your answer as correct. It's the closest thing to a correct answer I think anyone could provide here. You clearly spent some time understanding and intelligently addressing the issue, so it has been raised, and has a reasonable response now. Cheers, @Davy M. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 17:59
13

The edits you do are always kept in the revision history. If someone really wants to determine the chain of history of post edits, they can always refer to that, and your edit will always* show up in that list.

This implies that your credit, as it were, isn't lost; the other editor(s) are adding on top of your work to create something better. No one is being discredited or anything like that.

*: There is the ability for moderators and staff to redact posts, but that is only done when absolutely necessary as a courtesy, like someone posting something sensitive.

1
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 19:44
5

There is no potential for abuse here.

The icon is not intended to represent a statement of authorship over the post. Therefore, the fact that the icon goes away if the OP reverts or revises the post does not constitute abuse. Even if the sole purpose of the OP making that reversion/revision is to remove that icon from the display, it still isn't abuse because that's not what the icon is for.

If you feel that a post should bear some marker in perpetuity that it has been edited by someone other than the OP, then you should make a feature request to that end.


OK, let's break this down:

The user wants to look like they write well, because it helps them secure contracts, so they prevent edits, to hide the edit icon, so it looks like they can write well.

In this scenario, user A "wants to look like they write well". OK, so one of two things is at play here:

  1. User A cannot write well.
  2. User A can write well.

Scenario 1 doesn't make any sense, as user A relies on edits to make themselves look better. Preventing such edits is the opposite of help.

In scenario 2, User A will then "prevent edits, to hide the edit icon, so it looks like they can write well". However, this assumes two things:

  1. That some third party will immediately look down on any post that has obviously been edited by someone else.
  2. That the best way to deal with edits by another person is to roll them back.

#1 is quite frankly absurd, and anyone who thinks that deserves to hire a bad programmer.

And in the case of #2, we've already established that user A is perfidious; they want to look better than they actually deserve to look. Therefore, it doesn't really make sense for them to "prevent edits" (ie: roll them back) as a general rule. If they want to try to hide the fact that someone else had their hand in their post, it makes far more sense for them to accept edits (which make their posts look better), but then to just add a trivial edit on top of the other one. They keep the content, just add an extra edit so the most-recent edit box shows that it's their edit.

In both scenarios, it makes no sense for user A to actively "prevent edits" on their post for the purpose of "looking like they can write well".

The problem you suggest does not exist.

Now, I imagine you will immediately declare that "prevent edits" doesn't mean "rolling back" (even though that is the closest thing a user can do to preventing an edit on this site). Instead, you'll say that you really meant "removing the most-recently edited user". OK, well the easiest way to do that while preserving the contents of the edit is to just make a trivial edit.

In that case... so what? That doesn't prevent you from editing other people's posts. It doesn't remove the change you did. The content is still the same; it simply doesn't have an immediate indicator that yousomeone not user A had a hand in its text.

What matters on this site is content, not who put it there. If the fact that some third-party might think that a post was entirely authored by user A when it isn't (even though it's trivial for them to find out if they genuinely care), if that alone is enough to keep you from making an edit, then... well, I would say that you have some very strange ideas about what this site is for.

37
  • I don't care what the solution is particularly, and there is very obvious potential for abuse. The current system offers incentives to users that prevent other users from improving answers. Using the ability to edit your answer to prevent others from doing so is abuse of that feature. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:23
  • 2
    @CarlSmith: What are the "incentives" being offered here, exactly? And if a user disagrees with an edit, why is it wrong for them to roll that edit back? Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:24
  • The incentive is money. Freelancers use SO to secure work. People who hire freelancers look through their SO and GitHub contributions to see how much they know, and how well they communicate online. If you cannot write very well, people are less keen to hire you, as most communication is done in writing. Creating the impression that you can explain technical subjects in intelligible English is very valuable to many SO users. I don't really care about them doing that, except for the potential for it to prevent other users from reediting an answer. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:33
  • I never said it's wrong to roll an edit back. I explicitly said in the original question """I'm not accusing the user in question of anything underhanded. They may genuinely think their edit is correct (it is their answer after all), and don't want anything doing about this case in particular. I'm only pointing out the potential for abuse.""" Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:37
  • 2
    @CarlSmith: I don't see the incentive here. Let's say that I'm this hypothetical person who doesn't communicate well. You see my correct-yet-poorly-worded answer. You decide to edit it to make it better. How am I incentivized to roll back that edit? It seems that in this scenario, I should be hoping someone comes along to edit the post, because it makes me look better. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:38
  • We are going round in circles. If you cannot understand the simple cause and effect when I have spelled out multiple times to you, then one of us is an idiot. I'm sorry I commented. I didn't think to check the username. My bad. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:41
  • 4
    @CarlSmith: We keep going around in circles because what you're talking about just doesn't make sense. I challenge you to go back to your original question and spell out the problem you claim exists, step-by-step, with each step explicitly annotated with the motives of the users in question. Go through the whole of your argument and break it down. You will eventually encounter a contradiction or just an unsupported hypothesis if you try to do that. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:44
  • It's very simple. I don't need to lay it all out again in detail. The user wants to look like they write well, because it helps them secure contracts, so they prevent edits, to hide the edit icon, so it looks like they can write well. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 22:56
  • @CarlSmith: See the edit to my answer. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 23:15
  • You still don't get it. Quote """if that alone is enough to keep you from making an edit...""". It isn't. I made the edit. The user reversed it. What prevented me from making the edit was another user deleting it. I don't know why I'm even explaining this again. You are clearly determined to misunderstand me. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 23:24
  • 2
    @CarlSmith: Sorry, but I saw some of the comments that got deleted. And you don't get to say "no hard feelings" after some of the slurs you threw out there. Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 23:44
  • 5
    @Carl Let's not exaggerate here. No one is driving you out of any community. You came to Meta to post a bug report about how the site works. Some folks tried to explain to you that your mental model of the site was wrong. They all did so respectfully and earnestly. You can call them pedants, or you can call them detail-oriented, or you can call them experts on the site's operation and principles. Either way, the result is the same. You are also welcome to disagree with them. But your accusations that anyone is driving you away or refusing to recognize you are completely unfounded.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 21, 2019 at 23:54
  • 3
    @CarlSmith: You forget that MSO gets a lot of questions from people who don't know how the site works. It is entirely possible that a user genuinely does not know that the edit history is a thing that exists, and therefore genuinely believes that they have been completely discredited once the icon goes away. This is not about good faith; it's about you telling us what you actually believe is going on. Your post never tells us that you know about edit histories, so we cannot assume you do. Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 0:46
  • 4
    @CarlSmith: And if you want to talk good faith, you never once assumed that any of the posts and comments made were a result of a failure in your own post and wording. You immediately assumed everyone thought you were "selfishly trying to get credit for an edit he feels he was wronged out of". If you want good faith, then you should give it first. And the best way to do that is to fix your question. Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 0:57
  • 3
    @CarlSmith: "I am certain that anyone could have understood the issue I raised, if they only assumed that I was here to help, and then read the question with that in mind." Know what that sounds like? That sounds like every time I've been certain that a bug wasn't in a particular part of my code. Know where the bug always is? Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 1:12

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .