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Came across this question today: How to ask high quality reproducible questions in Stata

I do appreciate the effort the OP has put in and both question and answer seem to be well thought out, helpful and garnering upvotes. However, it's left me a bit confused though since it's not related to programming and almost certainly opinion based. Checking in with the help center I don't really see how it's on topic.

Is a question like this off-topic for Stack Overflow? Does it belong here on Meta? Is there a precedent for similar "how to ask" questions having a place on SO?

As the OP pointed out, his question was inspired by the likes of:

So apparently there is some precedent - just never noticed those before. I'm still curious as to how any of these, despite being highly upvoted, are on topic.

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  • 4
    It's a try for providing a canonical. Not a really great one tho. Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 15:23
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    There are similar questions for the pandas and R tags. Not sure what you are after here.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 15:23
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    @Pearly I'm not saying that the q&a is or isn't on-topic, but that there are other similar questions doesn't mean this question is actually on-topic. If you believe other off-topic questions exist, VtC those.
    – yivi
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 15:41
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    @yivi We need a question / answer like this because the info in the help center is generic and not tailored to Stata. Most new askers have no idea about how to generate data in Stata or how to debug their code using Stata's commands.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 15:44
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    Sigh. This isn't about helping anybody to ask questions, it is an excuse to close them. Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 15:49
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    @yivi The only difference between the questions is that the others are in more popular tags. I couldn't care less about my question being migrated but IMO this is additional proof of a double standards mentality and bias towards smaller communities.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 16:24
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    I'm not sure what the final result of this process is going to be, but as the creator of one of the affected questions, I want to point out that if these questions become harder to point new users to, it will seriously impact the experience for regular answerers in [r] and [pandas]. Trying to get new users to include data in their questions is a daily battle in those tags, and data-based questions are extremely hard to answer without examples. I enjoy helping out new users with R, I don't enjoy constantly pleading with them to include their data in the question.
    – Marius
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 21:32
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    Unfortunately, I think the "daily battle (of) ... constant pleading to include data in their questions" pretty much applies to all tags on Stackoverflow. While those posts are very useful resources to offer a quick link for new users, I don't really see how those topics can possibly be any more newb ridden than others here. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you guys, but it really sounds like there is a feeling that these tags specifically are some kind of special needs case. Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 22:36
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    @billynoah Yes, you do misunderstand what this is about. This is not about the number of newcomers. This is about providing specific advice to newcomers. Stata, R and Pandas do not have the same commands to generate data, debug etc with Java and C++.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 22:43
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    @billynoah I realise it's hard to get new users to include code examples and the information needed to understand them, but it's even harder to get them to provide a usable example of the data they're working on in an R/pandas/Stata data analysis, that's what is unique to these tags.
    – Marius
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 23:06
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    Ok, as someone who knows absolutely nothing about any of those tags I will defer to your first hand experiences. I can only say that I would describe the things I encounter elsewhere precisely the same way so on the surface at least, it sounds very much like a universal problem. Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 23:09
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    Close reasons are means, and not ends in themselves. If we agree that questions of this sort are useful resources for our task of curating questions, and that they should exist somewhere around here (i.e. either in the main site or in Meta), we should first examine whether the choice of place has any effect over the usefulness of such questions, before entering an abstract discussion about topicality.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 2:45
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    @PearlySpencer The Stata question was the only one migrated because it's the only one that could be migrated. Questions that are older than 60 days old can not be migrated, even by moderators. The other two questions are dramatically older than 60 days. Thus, neither can be migrated. If you're interested in the reasoning behind the 60 day limit, you might read: Disable migration for questions older than 60 days.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 5:45
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    @Makyen I am aware of the posts and anyone who reads them carefully will see that this policy was instituted to curb migration of crap posts on other Stack Exchange sites which created conflict. In this case, we are talking about very helpful questions with hundreds and thousands of up-votes. Let's not use a policy created with good intentions as an excuse not to give a fair solution here.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 8:58
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    @Makyen If you read the comments below you will also see that there is no personal agenda here. The top contributor of the Stata tag fully supports my views and in fact has contributed to the Stata question. Nice try though.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 12:12

3 Answers 3

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In a word - yes. This question isn't about programming, but about how to ask a good question on Stack Overflow. As such, it doesn't belong on Stack Overflow itself, but here, on Meta Stack Overflow.

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    This question is not about how SO operates as a whole. It is about improving programming questions from new askers with specific advice for Stata users. Nevertheless, if the community decides that this kind of questions are off-topic then ALL similar questions should be closed and moved on Meta.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 15:38
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    @PearlySpencer: Questions about how SO operates as a whole and questions about how to ask on SO are welcome here on MSO. After all, asking good questions is one of the ways that SO operates.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 16:05
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    I support @Pearly Spencer strongly here, both on general grounds — although I would not object if such threads were all placed on Meta — and specifically as someone active on the Stata tag. This is a focused effort to provide a resource packed with constructive advice. It’s already been found useful.
    – Nick Cox
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 16:32
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    I like what Pearly wrote and I agree that all of these types of questions belong here on meta. At the very least they need to have an officially designated home. Unfortunately it appears the others are "too old to migrate" so not sure we're going to arrive at any consistency here. Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 17:23
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    @NickCox you can support them all you like and still be wrong. These questions are absolutely off-topic on the main site and on-topic here. The fact that a question has not yet been moved is not evidence of anything other than the fact that it has not yet been moved. Unfortunately both questions are too old to be migrated. So moving them would require deleting the ones on main and recreating them here.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 17:24
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    @TinyGiant I suggest that "absolutely" off-topic can only mean that no one well informed about SO could possibly disagree. FWIW, not much I know, I disagree.
    – Nick Cox
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 17:30
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    @NickCox You can disagree as much as you like, you'll still be wrong. It's blatantly off-topic for Stack Overflow, and anyone well informed about SO would know that.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 17:31
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    That's not an argument: there is no logic and no evidence to what you're saying, just an assertion of a personal view that you're repeating. I note that the R and Pandas threads show evidence of thousands and hundreds of upvotes, so many, many people following those tags feel extremely positive about them. On whether you're better informed than I am about SO, I leave that open.
    – Nick Cox
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 17:35
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    @TinyGiant Accusing two other users with considerable reputation and moderation experience that they are not well informed on the ways of SO because they disagree is pretty telling. Furthermore, one can hide behind the too old to migrate label but the fact that the two other questions on SO remain open shows the blatant bias towards smaller communities. Hypocrisy at its finest.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 17:42
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    There is a "stata" tag on SO, but not on meta, right? It can't make sense to have hundreds of these sorts of language specific things on meta can it?
    – JohnE
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 18:44
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    IMO, the practical consideration is that for the stata (R, pandas, etc) you need to access this Q&A from the wiki. Or should this Q&A instead be part of the wiki?
    – JohnE
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 18:45
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    @Nick Upvotes have no relation to topicality. Off-topic questions get upvoted all the time. To put it in another light, how is it a programming question or a question about the use of a programming tool for programming purposes? It's not, it's a question about how to ask questions on Stack Overflow, which should be on meta, not on the main site. My assertion was that anyone familiar with the topicality of Stack Overflow would be able to identify the fact that it is not a programming question, nor a question about the use of a programming tool for programming purposes, and that it is off-topic.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 19:30
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    @NickCox Notice that I quoted the exact text from the upvote tooltip there. This isn't my own phrasing, it is the phrasing used by Stack Overflow. See also: Old highly upvoted questions that don't follow current SO standards
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 19:54
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    How to create a reproducible example is on topic for Stack Overflow. It is a programming task after all. Details that makes this question specific to SO questions make it more suitable for Meta but I don't think closing the other two questions (especially the R one, after Will's revision) is constructive.
    – user2285236
    Commented Nov 24, 2018 at 19:57
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    I think these types of posts fall between the two sites and prob should be left on main and possibly locked, with a link to the tag wikis. Main has more visibility and the posts can be tagged with the tag people are posting under. So they're searchable with that tag.
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 4:13
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The posts predominantly discuss how to created reproducible examples of code. They sit somewhere between both Stack Overflow and Meta. The people who would be searching under those tags are less likely to find those posts on Meta. They may not be aware meta exists. They will more likely to find them under the tags.

This question How to make a great R reproducible example is tagged .

Linking these posts in the tag wiki and leaving them on SO is the better option. This way they remain searchable under those tags.

The wiki has been updated to include the relevant post.

The two posts still in the main site are locked as community wikis. No more answers can be added, but the existing answers can be edited.

None of this is set in stone. The posts do not need to stay on main.

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  • If the other two questions are not be moved on Meta then the Stata question should be moved back on SO. Would you not agree that this would be the fair thing to do? Or Stata users are inferior somehow?
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 9:00
  • @PearlySpencer do you want it moved back?
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 10:48
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    Yvette, with all due respect this is not about what I want. I simply think this is the right thing to do for Stata users and users of smaller tags in general. Despite the uproar, I have yet to hear a convincing argument from anyone about how the Stata question is different from the R and Pandas ones.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 11:48
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    Thanks for contributing another point of view. I'm honestly surprised that there is no clear consensus about this Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 14:11
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    Frankly none of the arguments made here are valid arguments for keeping a question on main that doesn't belong on main. I'm not convinced that the other two need to be moved (as ayhan said producing an MCVE is a programming task where asking a question is not), but I'd like to see some valid arguments on the matter. A question is not on-topic on main because "The people who would be searching under those tags are less likely to find those posts on Meta. They may not be aware meta exists. They will more likely to find them under the tags." otherwise every meta question should be put on main
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 20:39
  • @TinyGiant A good reproducible question on statistical programming requires more than just an MCVE in the traditional sense. In this respect, there is no real difference between the Stata question and the other two. But if it helps I have now re-worded the Stata question to more closely resemble the other two.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 22:04
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    @PearlySpencer That doesn't matter. The task of producing an MCVE is a programming task. The task of producing a question is a question asking task.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 22:21
  • @TinyGiant We clearly disagree.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 22:23
  • @PearlySpencer The Pandas example is quite a bit more on the question asking task end of things, whereas the R example is specifically about the programming task of creating an MCVE.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 22:24
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    I personally think that if we could come up with a standardized format for what a good "How to ask questions in X tag" format and start posting them on meta under a common tag, then start linking to them and showing that there would be a global use for such a feature, that would make a much better case for the creation such a feature. As opposed to just having overly broad, controversial posts spread across the main site with no standard format for what one should look like, what information they should or should not contain, or how they should be handled by the community.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 22:29
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    @TinyGiant Sorry but you are just repeating the same argument over and over again with different words. So I am going to leave it at that.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 22:39
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    I'm using different words because you don't seem to be understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that I don't know if those other two examples should be moved or not. I think that the pandas question is off-topic on main, I don't know whether it should be moved or not because doing so would have a lot of side-effects and I'd rather leave it alone until someone smarter than me figures out how to fix the problem in a manner that considers all of those side effects. I don't think the R example should be moved because it is about producing an MCVE, not producing a question. @PearlySpencer
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 22:43
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    @YvetteColomb The place is not important to me either. What is important to me is that all questions be treated fairly. That said, any suggested solution should be pragmatic. The suggestion to create a place on Meta to host such questions is pure fantasy. Other more urgent issues are overlooked every day. This suggestion will not be implemented in 100 years.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 0:52
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    @PearlySpencer I agree. I'm not sure what to do at this stage. I'm waiting for feedback from other mods. Timezones and all that :)
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 0:54
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    Moderator note: comments seem to be going somewhat off track here folks... Let's keep 'em for what they're for in relation to the answer please.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Nov 26, 2018 at 12:59
-2

In any discussion of this kind it is important to keep in mind that some opinion is unavoidable, both in science and life in general. Stack Overflow is no exception.

Personally, I think that a reproducible programming question needs more than just providing a reproducible example. As I explained in a comment here, I strongly believe that a question, which aims to be useful not just to the OP but also to other users, additionally requires good technical writing, code comments, variable names and commands in the code to be free of typos, debugging code trace where necessary and so on. This is particularly true for questions where the end goal is the statistical analysis of data. In general, high quality reproducible programming questions should include all the things I go through in my "How to ask" post.

Perhaps I should had given to the question part a bit more technical flavor. However, in the above context, I still think that my question (and the two others after which it is modelled) adheres to Stack Overflow's on-topic policy. I suppose I have a more holistic approach, which clearly is not shared by everyone here. And that's fine. In a democracy everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.

The community I think was too strict in enforcing this policy and voted to migrate my question but I am perfectly happy with that. The idea was always to create an one-stop Stata resource for newcomers and convert this to a wiki post once a stable form was achieved. This question is necessary to give specific advice to newcomers in and provides practical examples using Stata's programming language. The How to Ask and MCVE links are useful but are more general and a bit too long so new users typically do not make an effort to read them.

However, strict interpretation and enforcement of the on-topic policy is not the only problem in this case. Another problem is the selective enforcement. Either all similar questions should be closed and moved on Meta Stack Overflow or none. The only real difference of the Stata question with the ones in and is that the latter are in more popular tags.

The argument that the other two questions are too old to be migrated would make sense if the migration concerned another Stack Exchange site. This policy was primarily instituted to curb migration of low-quality questions towards other Stack Exchange sites, which created conflict. In this case, we are talking about very helpful questions moved on Meta Stack Overflow. Let us not use a policy created with good intentions as an excuse not to give a fair solution here. The fact that the other two questions remain on the main Stack Overflow site, in my opinion, provides further proof of a double standards mentality and bias towards smaller communities.

In accordance with the principles of equality and fairness, the other two questions should be moved by the site moderators/owners on Meta and until that happens they should stay closed (but not deleted). Alternatively, the Stata question should be moved back on the main site.

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    +1. I routinely point users to How to make good reproducible pandas examples. Perhaps 25% of users take it on board. That's not a bad success rate given the poor starting points. I don't mind where the post sits, but if it gets more visibility on SO main, it may work well there. Enhanced tag wikis have been requested before, but that won't happen.
    – jpp
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 0:16
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    linking them in the tag wiki is helpful. I don't think migrating them to meta is a good idea. There's in a no man's land somewhere between the two sites. They are more visible as @jpp said on main.
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 4:12
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    @YvetteColomb We will but the problem with the tag wiki is that new users for whom this post is intended never read it.
    – user8682794
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 8:59
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    @PearlySpencer we definitely need a feature to bring tag wiki's in front of the eyes of new users.
    – rene
    Commented Nov 25, 2018 at 9:30

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