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In light of this and my most recent experience a few minutes ago I submit this post for discussion. To be extremely clear, I would never condone or excuse in the slightest those that are actually rude or abusive, misogynistic, bigoted or racist intentionally or not.

I am adamant that the standing policy of vote, do not comment, move on has never been effective and being used against the community at large as a motivating factor in Jay Hanlon's blog post and is counter productive.

My first SO qn got so many downvotes so quickly but no one bothered to/seemed to be able to answer it. Also, at least tell me what I did wrong please instead of just giving a passive aggressive response?? I’ve always thought that it was my problem until I saw this today. So angry

It seems to be acceptable for an endless stream of unredacted public shaming of being unwelcomed to be used as evidence that the volunteer community is a bunch of misogynistic, bigoted, racist or just hateful people, but no attempt at a catalog of counter examples of why maybe the volunteer community members might be short, terse or even mildly impolite sometimes exists, until now.

So this is what the volunteer community members that do the actual work creating the valuable content on your site experience on a daily/hourly basis. Volunteers that are trying to create a better experience for their peers and future peers in their chosen industry.

Someone please show this meta question to Jay Hanlon, my experience in the last 8+ years tells me these type of people out number the unwelcomed by a few orders of magnitude.

I ( and I am sure others ) want to know where is his blog post to these types of people telling them to be more appreciative to the volunteer community members that are welcoming them into the community? It is true because we are telling it is! Because the first post is justifying and embolding the behavior documented here.

I invite everyone that experiences a similar situations that makes you feel unwelcomed and unappreciated as a contributor to post a screen capture of it here as an answer over the next week or two.

Let's catalog some some empirical experience/evidence as incontrovertible proof they can count that they are not focusing on the root cause of the unwelcoming issue.

That way Stack Overflow will know because we are telling them so.

I am posting an image because I expect the comments I have flagged as rude and abusive to be removed eventually, they have, and this entire question to get delete voted out of existence once the weekend is over, maybe sooner ( it has ) and I do not want to exclude those that can not view deleted posts.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50318241/pass-class-method-resultset-into-another-class-method

Footnote/Motivation:

Here is what someone else who tried to help was well got, for those that can not see deleted content yet. The rude response he got was why I left the first comment I made after I searched up appropriate duplicates with working code for the OP. Then I posted the second comment as a suggestion on an approach.

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    If you need to show an example, then at least remove the names. It's really not good style to call out people in such a way.
    – BDL
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 18:23
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    @BDL - in practice there is no partial redaction on the internet, if I redacted a name the exact text is easily searchable on Google. Paraphrasing would not be facts and there would an equal or greater chorus of links or it did not happen.
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 18:32
  • 3
    When unredacted blog posts are used as examples of proof unwelcoming I feel no moral or ethical obligation to go to the effort, especially when it is easily searchable like I already explained, and already spent effort trying to politely and graciously help someone only to be told GFY. Actions have consequences.
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 18:40
  • 1
    @BDL - it would be extremely easy to just look at my profile and my activity to see what I had voted to close to find the post just as easily as well. So calls for redaction and not good style on calling out people my part are kind of pointless and come across as an attempt at hand wavy passive-agressive public shaming in their own way, I am not explicitly calling them out, I am just posting the facts as they happened.
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 18:51
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    @feelingunwelcome: I'm not sure how to read "this person was a jerk to me" as anything other than "calling them out". Whatever intent you may have had behind it is irrelevant; you're clearly calling them out on their behavior. And to be honest, this particular behavior is hardly special. It happens; you deal with it and move on. Commented May 13, 2018 at 20:07
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    @NicolBolas 'this particular behavior is hardly special.' well, it's special in that it won't get any airtime on tutter, and there won't be a blog about it. Commented May 13, 2018 at 20:56
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    I was an active participant in this exchange, at least at the end, but regardless, I'm not sure how to react to your meta post, other than being confused as to the point you're trying to make. Yes this happens and much too often, but if the OP behaves like this multiple times, the site will block him from asking, so it all usually works out for the best in the end. As for Jay Hanlon and his blog, meh. It has no bearing on the actual quality and utility of this site. Commented May 13, 2018 at 20:57
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    @HovercraftFullOfEels - Thanks for asking this, I am going to add a response to this in the main question, until then; ignoring these users is not the solution anymore than ignoring the vocal minority of users that complain and take personal offense at someone clicking on an arrow or innocently asking for some code. And the later users got a public shaming blog post dressing down the volunteer community from Jay, what do these users get, ignored at best? I do not think that is reciprocal.
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:24
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    @MartinJames - a blog and twitter feed is in the works ...
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:26
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    @NicolBolas - so why not the same response to the person that complains about this on an unredacted blog claiming This was just posted by a guy with 100K+ rep on a beginner StackOverflow question. EQ note: Even this kind of subtly condescending comment can be very discouraging. The words "exactly" and especially "clearly" are warning signs in this context., and it is used as I illustrated as proof/examples of misogyny and racism, someone has a double standard?
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:28
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    @NicolBolas - they were a jerk to someone else first, I was trying to back that person up. It is the internet, I expect jerks, what I do not abide by is the attitude of entitlement and hubris displayed on Stack Overflow, not before Jay's blog post and especially not afterwards.
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:32
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    @feelingunwelcome: You cannot control what other people do; you can only choose what you will do. Two wrongs don't make a right; it is no more right for you to post named criticism than it was for the other person. "it is used as I illustrated as proof/examples of misogyny and racism" No, it's not. It was used as an example of being unwelcoming. Nobody suggested it was racist or misogynistic. The question it was posted on was "MCVE for Not Being Very Welcoming". Commented May 13, 2018 at 23:03
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    @feelingunwelcome: "what I do not abide by is the attitude of entitlement and hubris displayed on Stack Overflow, not before Jay's blog post and especially not afterwards." Do you genuinely believe that *anything you said will change them? When you see unreasonable people being unreasonable, disengage and move on. Commented May 13, 2018 at 23:05
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    @feelingunwelcome: What part of "You cannot control what other people do" was unclear to you? You cannot stop people from feeling unwelcome by the basic tools of the site. So just downvote, close vote as needed, and move on. Why do you care so much about some random blog post? What matters are the actual site policies. Until that person is actually making site policies, you should treat nonsense as nonsense. Commented May 14, 2018 at 0:03
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    @feelingunwelcome: "That is my opinion, I have a right to voice it." Yes, it's your right. That doesn't change the fact that you're tilting at windmills. Focus on the actual policies that are actually on the actual site, not what might come to be due to some random blog. Commented May 14, 2018 at 0:21

2 Answers 2

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What you really need to understand is that you will not win. Which is what you keep trying.

  • Do what I have told you
    • Nope
  • I'm warning you
    • Sure
  • We can't help you this way
    • Whatever
  • etc.
    • etc.
  • etc. etc.
    • You are a very bad man

After the first 2 comments you should have moved on.

Only once they edit their post into a state that there was hope you could have come back with extra guidance or maybe an answer.

Yes, I know that your inbox gets cluttered up with plea's for help, still, ignore it while the post hasn't improved.

Instead of your so much desired end-goal, a well-asked question that is answerable, we have now 2 disgruntled users, you and the OP. And you're obviously so worked up that you continue to let steam off on meta. The escalating nature of comments has to stop, by you and by all the other care bears. You run the risk of being suspended if you push your help too far. It is not worth it. Control your self. Stop calling people out.

Maybe (maybe) the first comment should be like this:

Hi, I'm going to leave a few comments with tips to make your question better answerable. [blah tip 1]. If you have questions on further improvements feel free to ping me. Or you can wait if answers come in based on what you currently have.

This makes clear what your intent is. You have already opted out from any further assistance in case the OP isn't interested in that. The best outcome here is that the OP after a few hours ask for help when no-one has answered or they get the wrong answers.

Most of all: you can stop getting frustrated. Life is too short, be happy.

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    knows I already know this, ad nauseum, I am glad they posted for everyone else's benefit. I saw where there was going when they were responding the person that tried and post an answer. I think I am going to start my own suffering on stackoverflow blog/twitter feed given how this discussion has been embraced by the community and ignored by the powers that be.
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:22
  • not letting off steam over this, just posting what others are experiencing and not posting about because they have been told they are the problem, and we have been told, and the current reasoning of we know because they told us so, means it has to be true. And your first comment just paraphrased what my first comment said, without, the ping me, which is an insane thing to recommend someone say. Click here to learn what you need to help us help you. That is about as welcoming as it gets for anyone, especially me :-).
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:48
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    I said letting off steam because that is how your post came across on me. See those words then as a signal how your post is received. For a casual reader it certainly looks like that and it kind of hides the real message. You've made a point, I'm unsure if your point will be heard but only time can tell.
    – rene
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 5:04
  • there is a saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink. I have 3 young boys and a wife and her mother in my house, I am used to not being heard. I am only interested in the cassandra aspect of this post. :-)
    – user177800
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 10:48
  • "After the first 2 comments you should have moved on." Okay, but why does it matter if we eventually start using "unwelcoming language" on questions that are already being down-voted and on track to be closed? How does snark or sarcasm somewhere at the bottom of a bad question stand out as the big problem? Sure, it would save some time and frustration to simply walked away, but does it really impact SO? If passable questions were routinely receiving comments like this straight off the bat, I would agree that action was needed but as it stands all the examples have been inconsequential.
    – EENN
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 10:15
  • @Lawyerson it might not matter for those involved but we seem to be trying to fight the impression for the lurkers and on-lookers. Seeing snarky comments on every other Q/A pair is not the impression SO Inc. wants to give. I admit I'm one of the blunt users around here and I might be the source of comments that lurkers much dislike. If a slight change in my behavior can help the greater goal I certainly want to give that a try. I don't expect I will get much feedback if I improved much in 6 to 8 weeks.
    – rene
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 11:43
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Stuff..

Yeah, but where is my answer? I want my answer!

Blah..

Yeah, but where is my answer? I want my answer!

Nice words..

Yeah, but where is my answer? I want my answer!

Rude words..

Yeah, but where is my answer? I want my answer!

[anything whatsoever]

Yeah, but where is my answer? I want my answer!

Yup, this set of OP's are a waste of everybody's time. The total lack of cooperation, degenerating into rudeness and abuse, does happen occasionally. It's quite possible that they have no software skills at all, and are just handling someone else's home or paid work for a fee. It's therefore not possible for them to provide any more code etc. than they were themselves given.

I've stopped commenting, at all, on posts from '<20' users, as a shield against exchanges like this one.

If you do ask for more info, code, data, formatting or whatever, and the OP responds with anything less than respectful compliance to a reasonable request...

Drop it immediately.

Close vote it as 'Unclear'. Downvote it. Don't comment any further. Don't try and justify your original request. Don't respond to continual bait from the OP. Don't waste any more time and effort on such questions.

Move on to a good question, else such OP's will drain every drop of blood from your body.

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    "Do not comment anything on poor question" is likely to be already a consensus on meta. Unfortunately, we still see many poor questions get immediate comments to teach OP on main site... overeager volunteers...
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:00
  • @feelingunwelcome: Why are you brandishing that off-site blog as though it were some kind of decisive evidence, rather than a single person's opinion? The "Welcoming" blog didn't even mention it, let alone link to it. What does it matter what gets said there? What matters is what policies we have here. Commented May 13, 2018 at 23:39
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    @NicolBolas - because it is being used as a reference many times on meta as proof that the community is women and minorities are targeted for abuse. Which in my 8+ years experience is patently false, almost every abusive comment on that blog post is neutral to gender, race, creed, country of national origin and everything else. It is just a record of a few people with internal personal issues blaming the community for perceived attacks that are not there. But it is used as proof here in meta to try and shape or justify policies.
    – user177800
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 23:50
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    @feelingunwelcome: "because it is being used as a reference many times on meta as proof that the community is women and minorities are targeted for abuse." ... where? I've seen it used to show that SO is unwelcoming to new users. But I don't recall seeing anyone use it in defense of the idea that "women and minorities are targeted for abuse" specifically. These are two different things, after all. Commented May 13, 2018 at 23:52

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