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I was reading Alyssa's post on the three best online resources for learning Python.

Most of the resources are fine, like the CodeAcademy one I used when I started with Python.

However, of one of them many good and bad things could be said. That resource is Learn Python The Hard Way.

As one of regular visitors of the Python room, Learn Python The Hard Way is not recommended by the Python chat room as you can see at the bottom of that page.

As Alyssa's blog post is part of Stack Overflow's ecosystem, does Stack Overflow back Learn Python The Hard Way and if yes, why?

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    A broader question could be: Do we need to consider posts on the Stack Overflow company blog to (also) represent the community or is it just some opinion on the internet and we, the community ON Stack Overflow, need to judge that opinion just as any other blogpost found in the wild.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 7:54
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    And is it OK to advertise a commercial tutorial on the SO blog? Does SO get a cut of the profit? Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 7:59
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    There's also a serious [citation needed] situation there concerning "is thought to be one of the most effective systems for learning the basics of computer programming". I couldn't find such bold statements for the other suggestions. Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 8:08
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    Looking at this, it's obvious Stack Overflow has been bought out by Big Python. Mandatory Python in "interesting" tags, and "are you SURE you don't want to learn some Python today?" smart ads are just around the corner!
    – Pekka
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 8:48
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    @Pekka웃 Next stop is python.stackoverflow.com, in the proud tradition of facebook.stackoverflow.com.
    – yannis
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 10:21
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    Note that you can comment on the blog, and upvote other comments (such as the one indicating that resource is not useful). Unfortunately, you can only do this via disqus. @Pekka웃 big python = Jörmungandr? Because he was slain by Thor last time I checked. Perhaps call him for help?
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 10:51
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    @ErikvonAsmuth Thor? Who needs Thor when you can call the original Python slayer, Apollo...
    – yannis
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 12:05
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    Beyond the low quality of the book itself, the attitude the author promotes both in the book and in their public actions is incredibly toxic to the Python community. For a site that prides itself on being nice and professional, this recommendation is extremely dissonant.
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 13:01
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    @davidism As someone who doesn't know anything about the book/author, can you reference something that describes those problems in a bit more detail?
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 13:29
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    @Servy one of my favourite technology-related examples is his pamphlet against python 3 (the only version of python that will be supported after 2020). He's censored it since, but the original version contains gems like python 3 claimed to be Turing-incomplete (the author has since said that it was "clearly a joke"). Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 13:33
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    @Servy unfortunately, I don't have anything handy. I don't keep a list of examples about things I don't really care to interact with. Their behavior goes back to their days in the Ruby community, it's not particularly hard to research.
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 13:35
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    @Servy perhaps a good recent article is this one by Eevee, who's occasionally on SO and is a famous Python dev in their own right. It addresses a recent article the LPTHW author wrote on both a technical and personal level.
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 13:38
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    You don't really need to know anything about Python to judge the problems with the "Learn Code The Hard Way" series. Pick one of the languages you do speak, then read and weep. I don't know Python, either, but I conducted a cursory examination of the "beta" release of Learn C The Hard Way (now since removed from the web) and was shocked on many levels. The person has a rather limited grasp on the technologies he purports to cover, and a far more limited grasp on productive social interaction.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 12:18
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    @Michelle I believe there's a huge difference. When you visit a website and see ads there, you just expect them to be related to the topic of the webpage. An explicit endorsement from the company blog is quite more than that, it's more than enough to sway new users to try the commercial product with questionable quality. Regarding rene's first comment: sure, SO blog is just a blog with opinions. Yet I don't think it carries the same weight as a random mouthpiece of a guy who thinks they're where it's at. Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 22:20
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    There's also a cognitive psychological aspect. If someone starts a tutorial that various random sources support, sooner or later they'll realize that those people were wrong in case the tutorial is bad. But following a ringing endorsement by an authoritative figure (SO the company in this case), the person's mindset is primed to assume that the tutorial is good and useful. I find it likely that if the tutorial is actually bad, newbies will sooner give up (or start asking awful questions on SO), and experienced programmers will take longer to realize that the tutorial is at fault and switch. Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 12:36

2 Answers 2

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This is a great catch, and I’m glad you brought this up. Note: Coincidentally, the blog is going to be down for maintenance for the next few hours; apologies to anyone who can't access links for reference in the meantime.

Short answer directly addressing your question: LPTHW is one of many resources some developers we talked to found useful, but it’s certainly not something Stack Overflow would back as the resource. To your point, I was unaware that the Python room advised against using LPTHW, and that’s something I should have checked. Sincere apologies for the miss. Again, your question was a great catch, and it’s something we’ll look to do going forward when we write technology specific blog posts like this or adjacent.

If you have any other issues with content in the future, you can ping us directly at [email protected]. We love feedback like this.

Longer answer about the blog in general and addressing some other concerns here: This is not a sponsored post, and we’re not getting any sort of kickback for this or any other recommendations we’ve made on the blog. If we ever venture into the territory of sponsored content, we’ll slap a pretty large “sponsored by” label on it, plus tag, plus lead-in language making it clear we’re getting paid for the content.

So bigger picture, what is happening with our blog content and pieces like these in particular? We’re still delivering the same types of content we always have: company announcements (e.g. new big hires, new products and features, community events like Winter Bash, etc.), podcast releases (we have one coming out later today!), engineering stories about how we built a project, and policy updates.

You may have noticed two other categories of content on the blog this past year: insights posts and Code for a Living posts.

The Stack Overflow Data Team and our Insights Team, primarily Dave Robinson and Julia Silge, have published several blog posts this past year focused not only on analyzing our survey data but on our proprietary traffic data. These include, for instance, our post on Helping One Million Developers Exit Vim or What Programming Languages Are Used Most on Weekends?. We’re working hard to deliver the community analysis about itself and the broader developer world, and we hope you’re enjoying this series so far.

As for Code for a Living, this is part of our experiment — in partnership with our Jobs product — on how we can better serve developers who are working hard to build their careers. The content includes such posts as Do Developers Need College Degrees? and The Developer Cover Letter.

We’re working to get a wider variety of developer voices on the blog in this category to talk about their career paths and what they’ve learned and recommend. We know these paths are seldom about going from point A to point B in a straight line, and we want these posts to reflect as many options and opportunities as we can.

If you have any other specific feedback on the type of content you’d want to see on the blog (or not see), email us at [email protected].

Thanks again for taking the time to point this out!

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    hi @kcpike (Alyssa), thank you for making things clearer. Now that you have feedback from the community, will LPTHW be still advised as a learning resource?
    – Andy K
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 14:04
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    I'm Kaitlin :) Alyssa is on my team, however. I'm going to wait until she gets in so she and I can discuss it (it's 7 am our time). Just deleting it could cause additional issues (e.g. "Hey, didn't this post used to include LPTHW?"). At minimum, we'll add notes to reflect what we've learned here.
    – kcpike StaffMod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 14:10
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    Thanks Kaitlin. No rush :) , I'm glad on a personal level that you and SO in a broader sense, answered the question. It shows that you care.
    – Andy K
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 14:12
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    "LPTHW is one of many resources some developers we talked to found useful" Which developers? Certainly not any experienced Python developers, this content is renowned among the community as famously bad and bordering on harmful. The claim that it was recommended by developers you've talked with seems somewhat dubious (more likely it came up in a cursory google search). However, I'm relieved to hear that this was not a sponsored content, and so it can be removed/updated easily.
    – wim
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 15:05
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    In the spirit of the Python room's position as well as critics here (like wim), I hope that you make it quite clear that LPTHW is not recommended, and that the stance against it by reputable members of the community is clear - including this moderator/professor/professional Pythonista/Python meetup organizer.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 15:16
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    @wim: sad to say, I have come across developers that claim it was helpful to them. Invariably I find that they came to the book via recommendations and had little to compare their experience of the book with. With further probing I've found that they then do see the issues in hindsight.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 15:52
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    @Martijn although hopefully they didn't because of the nature of the book ask questions that have been seen multiple times before on SO itself... Given the rise of popularity of Python (as noted in another blog) - any learning material that's going to lead new Python programmers to SO to ask questions that are going to be poorly received/seen before/closed etc... is not really doing anyone any favours... (looks like we've already got GCSE assignments for that traffic at the moment... :p)
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 16:13
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    You state that LPTHW is one of many resources some developers we talked to found useful but then state that you were unaware that the Python room advised against LPTHW. As there are many SO chatrooms based on the various languages and toolkits which exist - could SO employees take this as a lesson that consulting with these rooms/users when still putting together other blog posts such as this is a good idea? It would have the added benefit of investing the community in the post and would avoid the "list of recommendations or outside resources" close reason of a full post. Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 18:39
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    "If you have any other specific feedback on the type of content you’d want to see on the blog (or not see), email us at [email protected]." is there any reason why this would be done as email rather than using Stack Exchange itself? It's pretty well suited to discussion.
    – Rob Grant
    Commented Sep 19, 2017 at 9:24
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    As several member of SO's Python community (3 of them moderators) have commented on the harmful nature of LPTHW. Is there a reason that it is still listed as being thought to be one of the most effective systems for learning the basics of computer programming? With only an edit stating that the python community is against it. I have dealt with students who come to programming and python through that book and it is harmful. Keeping such a strong recommendation with only a set of links after seems like it will lead beginners to ignore the edit and just get the book anyway. Commented Sep 20, 2017 at 17:25
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This post https://stackoverflow.blog/2015/07/02/how-we-built-our-blog/ describes how the blog was built, the following is a quote from it:

In the end, I’m glad that there’s finally a single destination for our engineering team to reach out to the technical community we love being a part of. You’ll see much more content like this from our engineering team moving forward, and we’d love to hear your feedback. Until next time!

From here https://stackexchange.com/legal/trademark-guidance:

The Stack Exchange Blog is the company blog which talks about everything we're doing on all our sites and what the company itself is doing.

Based on those 2 quotes I believe the blog was originally created with good intentions. Probably some excecutive at some point thought "Hey we have a blog, we can put some ads on it and make money!" And now we have the post mentioned by OP and a couple more I could easily find: https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/07/26/3-best-resources-learn-c/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/08/23/the-best-resources-for-learning-ruby/ All written by the same Content Writer who probably never wrote a line of code in her life. This is not her fault, she is just doing her job. Those posts can be broken down, analyzed, and wrong things can be pointed out. There really is no point, they are just ads.

This is just normal Native advertising, I don't know why there is no disclosure but I'm sure Stack Overflow legal team covered their asses. If a company wants to pollute it's blog with ads usually that's its business but Stack Overflow is recognized to be a site filled with experts who provide expert opinion! All of us helped in creating this reputation and though the blog is not directly related to the website the reputation of this site built by experts is used to promote crap, this is not cool!!!

I hope that something will be done about it, making it more clear that the blog has nothing to do with the community will resolve the issue for me.

The real problem is that sometimes we forget that all this companies are interested in one thing and one thing only. The Stack Overflow company doesn't really care about us or about the content on this site if tomorrow they will find out that allowing only questions about Python will make them more money then tomorrow you will only be allowed to ask about Python.


Edit

The last paragraph was an exaggeration. I thought the bit about Python makes it clear but some people take everything literally. So, no, I don't think that this will ever become a Python only site. SO are in this for the long run, they are not going to make drastic changes for some quick "Big Python" money and they are not an "evil" company but they are in this to make profit, if they will need to choose between content and money I'm certain they will choose money, if you think otherwise your world is better than mine.

This was more of a general remark, all this companies that rely on user created content make it look like they care about it, they don't, like any other company they want to make money. IMDB is a good recent example. Amazon decided axing IMDB forums is a good business decision and they simply did it, they could've made them read only or at least make a publicly available backup of them but no, they didn't care about the huge amount of unique information that was there and just removed them. Luckily some people scraped the whole forum and it's still available to humanity.

Same with SO, they saw an opportunity to put some ads on their blog and they went for it. What the community thinks about being associated with such content is not something they care about(as long as they can get away with it). And those are ads, it should be clear to you now when you know what they are. That is an assertion, I don't find it necessary to substantiate it, if you disagree then disagree. Even if they aren't ads(and they are) they still promote crap and look like something that is associated with this community. OP's question and the comments to it prove the previous sentence.


Update

If you read carefully Kaitlin didn't exactly contradict my post and that's all I'm going to say about it. Many people upvoted it so I guess they are happy with the response they got. SO the company can continue using the reputation of SO the site to promote whatever it wants, the community can monitor it and ask SO the company to remove something when it's obvious crap. As to me I'm going to resolve it for myself and ignore the existence of stackoverflow.blog, this way everybody can be happy.

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    Stack Exchange quite obviously takes the long view in monetizing its sites. Witness, oh I don't know, almost every one of the 160+ websites it runs, many of which are years old and still have no ads. So your final paragraph is certainly misleading hyperbole at best. The assertion that these must inevitably be actual paid-for ads, rather than (say) somewhat clumsy attempts at expanding SO's potential userbase and reducing the number of worthless utterly noobish questions being asked, needs to be supported as well. At present that's just speculation. Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 4:26
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    Misleading?? No. Hyperbole? Sure that was oversimplified and exaggerated but if you think the VCs that own Stack Overflow actually care about creating a Q&A repository then... continue living in your beautiful world. Why do you think they don't have adds everywhere? Come on, try to answer that with anything else then 'business decision'. "That's an apple!" is also an assertion, proving to someone that claims an apple is an orange is not something I'm interested in doing. You had to prefix your alternative with '(say)' because you know it's bollocks and you can't fathom a good one. @NathanTuggy
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 6:10
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    SE doesn't have ads everywhere because the ads wouldn't be adequately targeted and would drive away users, crippling those sites before the traffic hits critical mass. And they rely on the network as a whole to drive diversified traffic to the few sites that do have ads. So SE does have business considerations in mind when setting up its ads. But that's not something I denied. What I said was that they take the long view in monetizing. This is in sharp contrast to your assertion that the very day [python]-only restrictions became profitable, they would embrace them. Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 6:22
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    So this answer is misleading because it asserts, in effect, that SE is so hyper-focused on micro-optimizing its revenue stream that it is willing to sacrifice long-term site viability for short-term funds. This is clearly wrong. Of course, it is debatable just how closely SE's idea of site viability matches the idea highly-involved users have of site quality. But there is certainly a reasonably strong historical and continuing linkage between those. So SE then is committed on business grounds to maximizing something closely akin to site quality. How deeply unethical and untrustworthy of them! Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 6:25
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    Finally, I put "(say)" because I was pretty sure there were also other possibilities, although the one I gave seems plausible enough to me. Since I now know from first-hand experience that you have made dogmatic assertions that are verifiably wrong, I think my last point stands pretty strongly: back up your assertions before confidently making them! Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 6:29
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    @NathanTuggy I addressed most of your points with an edit to the answer. I don't know what my dogma is, saying that for profit companies are in it for the profit is not very dogmatic. For your scenario to seem plausible enough you need to really stretch those words, stretched to that level they don't mean anything anymore.
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 8:30
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    Fun fact: the ultimate objective of any business is to generate profit for its owner. If it doesn't produce that, the owner would have no interest into starting it in the first place.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 13:21
  • @Braiam That's not a fact and most certainly not fun. First of all there are non-profits, I would be much happier to contribute content to a company like Wikipedia and not SO. Also the co-founders in many cases do want to make something that will add value to the world, when a company reaches SO size then it's all about the money.
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 20:33
  • @Oleg Why would anyone create a business if not to get profit? Also, you are confusing profit with monetary benefits. Profit can be anything that is of value for its owner, not just money.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 21:14
  • @Braiam People have different values and goals for some there are more important things than money. I'm not confusing anything it's in the freaking name! Non-profit vs For-profit. The word profit can mean different things in the context of a company it means only one thing - excess revenue i.e. making money.
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 21:41
  • Well, I'm not talking about a "company" I'm talking about business. People do business to get profit. I'm in a business trying to make you see your wrongs because it profits me in the way of preventing more misconceptions to spread. I'm a economist first, so I use profit in the way of economy does, a way to include all the possible benefits that motivates people to do stuff.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 21:52
  • @Braiam The post you linked to is about money. If you don't know what profit means I highly doubt that you are an Economist. I'm going to take a look at your actions, and unless you will surprise me and actually say something sensible in your next comment I'm going to stop conversing with you.
    – Oleg
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 22:04

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